Part of the reason why we bought this GB is because the shares are exchangeable. You can "sell" these miners at any time by selling your shares, or you can "buy" whole miners by buying the shares. There doesn't even need to be a debate, tyrion and blastbob gave us a great mechanism for voting with your wallet.
it looks like you can buy/sell for ~0.0013/share. If you think we should sell miners, sell your shares. If you think it's a good deal, buy.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/addiction-order-book-thread-418-mhsshare-328135
Topic: [BitFunder] - ADDICTION - KNCMiner - Now hashing at 14+TH! - page 12. (Read 74891 times)
Hey Guys,
Due to forum being unavailable I haven't posted the update on the divs yet but we sent them Sunday evening.
Balance in wallet: 102.48499399
Still in wallet for non-converted shares: 5.75459633
Hosting Cost: 1.8
Dividends: 94.93039766
Divs per share: 0.00028354
Still 5883 shares left to confirm / transfer
With regards to selling miners we have no intention to sell miners for now. This has multiple reasons:
- We still believe a ROI might be possible on the miners. Compared to the original buyin this weeks dividend was still a decent 4-5.6% (depending on what GB). With BTC Price going up costs for mining are decreasing making that we can continue mining longer than we anticipated at the start.
- Selling and shipping these miners comes as a risk. They still need to work when they arrive god knows where otherwise you don't get the money.
- Downscaling the number of miners increases the risk on the miners, ie the effect of one or part of a miner breaking down is higher with less miners.
This might change if prospects change in the near future of course.
Bottom line, what Voodah indicated, we would have all been better off not buying the machines as it stands, however selling the miners is making that "loss" irreversible.
Cheers,
Due to forum being unavailable I haven't posted the update on the divs yet but we sent them Sunday evening.
Balance in wallet: 102.48499399
Still in wallet for non-converted shares: 5.75459633
Hosting Cost: 1.8
Dividends: 94.93039766
Divs per share: 0.00028354
Still 5883 shares left to confirm / transfer
With regards to selling miners we have no intention to sell miners for now. This has multiple reasons:
- We still believe a ROI might be possible on the miners. Compared to the original buyin this weeks dividend was still a decent 4-5.6% (depending on what GB). With BTC Price going up costs for mining are decreasing making that we can continue mining longer than we anticipated at the start.
- Selling and shipping these miners comes as a risk. They still need to work when they arrive god knows where otherwise you don't get the money.
- Downscaling the number of miners increases the risk on the miners, ie the effect of one or part of a miner breaking down is higher with less miners.
This might change if prospects change in the near future of course.
Bottom line, what Voodah indicated, we would have all been better off not buying the machines as it stands, however selling the miners is making that "loss" irreversible.
Cheers,
the original offer from knc was 6999 usd payable with a credit card. ROI for BTC is meaningless for the oct knc machines we purchased in june.
the new offer by knc is BTC offer. these are due in april of 2014. Please do not discuss btc with the machines we purchased as it is a meaningless discussion. Most of us did use btc to pay Tyrion70 but I simply went to coinbase and purchased 7.5 btc for about 80 usd a coin then used the btc to buy in. Since I live in a country that charges taxes in fiat my calculations are based on fiat not BTC.
If anyone thinks the selling half the machines for 25k each and halving all our dividends would mean we lose they do not have a real concept of investment. I do agree that selling half the machines may not be the best choice for max profit. but it absolutely makes a real world fiat profit. For each and every one of us. It make us all guaranteed winners. Keeping all the machines and hashing does not make us a guaranteed winner. I happen to be a USA citizen but frankly if I did live in the UK and used the pound the same would be true. If I lived in any country that uses the EURO it would be true. If I lived in Japan or China it would be true.
The down side to selling half the machines at 25k each say 14 for 350,000 usd. and we paid 190,000 usd for all the machines does exist.
one) coins to jump to 10000 a coin
two) deal goes bad and we do not get paid.
the upside
one) we get 350,000 we paid 190,000 so we got 13 machines for free and a 160,000 profit.
two) coins stay stable or drop
the new offer by knc is BTC offer. these are due in april of 2014. Please do not discuss btc with the machines we purchased as it is a meaningless discussion. Most of us did use btc to pay Tyrion70 but I simply went to coinbase and purchased 7.5 btc for about 80 usd a coin then used the btc to buy in. Since I live in a country that charges taxes in fiat my calculations are based on fiat not BTC.
If anyone thinks the selling half the machines for 25k each and halving all our dividends would mean we lose they do not have a real concept of investment. I do agree that selling half the machines may not be the best choice for max profit. but it absolutely makes a real world fiat profit. For each and every one of us. It make us all guaranteed winners. Keeping all the machines and hashing does not make us a guaranteed winner. I happen to be a USA citizen but frankly if I did live in the UK and used the pound the same would be true. If I lived in any country that uses the EURO it would be true. If I lived in Japan or China it would be true.
The down side to selling half the machines at 25k each say 14 for 350,000 usd. and we paid 190,000 usd for all the machines does exist.
one) coins to jump to 10000 a coin
two) deal goes bad and we do not get paid.
the upside
one) we get 350,000 we paid 190,000 so we got 13 machines for free and a 160,000 profit.
two) coins stay stable or drop
Phil,
While I agree with your assumptions, if we sold 13 for 350,000 we would be able to buy about ~340 btc, which would mean that my payout would be about 3.4 btc, @ ~1000 per btc that would almost double my initial investment in fiat but not in bitcoin. The other poster is correct in that had I kept my original 18.95 BTC for this group buy I would be up much more than I am now and it may take the full two years of hashing to ROI on my original investment in BTC, in fiat however I am up as most of us are in a big way, but only if btc remains at current levels or higher.
It's a tough question and we need to remove our emotions from the equation and look at this from a business transaction point of view only.
I think we need to run some numbers on the possibilities going forward.
1) is now the best time to sell the proposed 13 miners, can we get more now for them rather than later, or will we produce more dividends but over a longer period of time? my last dividend was .96 btc, for me selling 13 of the miners for a 3.4btc dividend doesn't sound worth it to me as I expect to receive that much in dividends alone from hashing over the next 5-7 dividend period.
2) what are the probabilities of the price of btc going down over the remaining time that we have with the group buy.
3) what are the projected earnings in dividends over the next year?
I say we keep them going until we hit the sweet spot between selling them and earning dividends.
the original offer from knc was 6999 usd payable with a credit card. ROI for BTC is meaningless for the oct knc machines we purchased in june.
the new offer by knc is BTC offer. these are due in april of 2014. Please do not discuss btc with the machines we purchased as it is a meaningless discussion. Most of us did use btc to pay Tyrion70 but I simply went to coinbase and purchased 7.5 btc for about 80 usd a coin then used the btc to buy in. Since I live in a country that charges taxes in fiat my calculations are based on fiat not BTC.
If anyone thinks the selling half the machines for 25k each and halving all our dividends would mean we lose they do not have a real concept of investment. I do agree that selling half the machines may not be the best choice for max profit. but it absolutely makes a real world fiat profit. For each and every one of us. It make us all guaranteed winners. Keeping all the machines and hashing does not make us a guaranteed winner. I happen to be a USA citizen but frankly if I did live in the UK and used the pound the same would be true. If I lived in any country that uses the EURO it would be true. If I lived in Japan or China it would be true.
The down side to selling half the machines at 25k each say 14 for 350,000 usd. and we paid 190,000 usd for all the machines does exist.
one) coins to jump to 10000 a coin
two) deal goes bad and we do not get paid.
the upside
one) we get 350,000 we paid 190,000 so we got 13 machines for free and a 160,000 profit.
two) coins stay stable or drop
the new offer by knc is BTC offer. these are due in april of 2014. Please do not discuss btc with the machines we purchased as it is a meaningless discussion. Most of us did use btc to pay Tyrion70 but I simply went to coinbase and purchased 7.5 btc for about 80 usd a coin then used the btc to buy in. Since I live in a country that charges taxes in fiat my calculations are based on fiat not BTC.
If anyone thinks the selling half the machines for 25k each and halving all our dividends would mean we lose they do not have a real concept of investment. I do agree that selling half the machines may not be the best choice for max profit. but it absolutely makes a real world fiat profit. For each and every one of us. It make us all guaranteed winners. Keeping all the machines and hashing does not make us a guaranteed winner. I happen to be a USA citizen but frankly if I did live in the UK and used the pound the same would be true. If I lived in any country that uses the EURO it would be true. If I lived in Japan or China it would be true.
The down side to selling half the machines at 25k each say 14 for 350,000 usd. and we paid 190,000 usd for all the machines does exist.
one) coins to jump to 10000 a coin
two) deal goes bad and we do not get paid.
the upside
one) we get 350,000 we paid 190,000 so we got 13 machines for free and a 160,000 profit.
two) coins stay stable or drop
Whatever your own personal justification or situation may be, this groupbuy was paid for in BTC. No discussion there. Calculating ROI in terms of USD is what's meaningless and shows no real concept of investment. You're trying to justify the investment in your head.
Fact is fact: If you kept those 7.5 BTC you bought at Coinbase, you'd have more today, either USD or BTC wise.
Who are you trying to kid?
I believe each kncminer cost about 60 BTC ( when btc was about $110)
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested
-( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested
-( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .Selling them for 25 BTC will not get them to ROI.
I've been thinking a lot about it. I seriously think the only way (and a long shot tbh) to get them to ROI is as soon as they become not cost effective for BTC; we have to put them to mine an alt coin that could eventually appreciate against BTC (as has been happening these last days, presumably this was wave 1 and it will happen again in the future). Then we would finally get our BTC back.
Lately Namecoin appreciated 3-4x so that should help a little in these coming payments.
I think altcoin is not a solution. Because currently, only scrypt-based alt-coin (like Litecoin) is more profitable than bitcoin. Current ASIC miners cannot mine scrypt-based coins. They only mine SHA256-based coins. If there is any SHA256 altcoin more profitable than BTC, those ASIC miners' owners will immediately swap to mine that altcoin, and making it unprofitable.
That's true; but you're not fully getting what I'm saying.
Even though they are not more profitable now, they may be in the near future.
Alts were pumped heavily this last week. I did the math. The total volume of the 29 main alts is now 10% of the total volume of BTC. It's as if they are getting them ready for the next BTC step up. So, presumably, in the future we will have another alt pump (be it because of merit or pure hype). During each of these pumps the alts appreciate 2x-4x against BTC. SO hypothetically if we were lucky to switch to the correct alt (during this first pump wave they all went up a lot.. so any of the better ones might do), we might see our original BTC value when we eventually go back alt/BTC at 3 or times the value we mined the alt for... long shot but worth the consideration...
the original offer from knc was 6999 usd payable with a credit card. ROI for BTC is meaningless for the oct knc machines we purchased in june.
the new offer by knc is BTC offer. these are due in april of 2014. Please do not discuss btc with the machines we purchased as it is a meaningless discussion. Most of us did use btc to pay Tyrion70 but I simply went to coinbase and purchased 7.5 btc for about 80 usd a coin then used the btc to buy in. Since I live in a country that charges taxes in fiat my calculations are based on fiat not BTC.
If anyone thinks the selling half the machines for 25k each and halving all our dividends would mean we lose they do not have a real concept of investment. I do agree that selling half the machines may not be the best choice for max profit. but it absolutely makes a real world fiat profit. For each and every one of us. It make us all guaranteed winners. Keeping all the machines and hashing does not make us a guaranteed winner. I happen to be a USA citizen but frankly if I did live in the UK and used the pound the same would be true. If I lived in any country that uses the EURO it would be true. If I lived in Japan or China it would be true.
The down side to selling half the machines at 25k each say 14 for 350,000 usd. and we paid 190,000 usd for all the machines does exist.
one) coins to jump to 10000 a coin
two) deal goes bad and we do not get paid.
the upside
one) we get 350,000 we paid 190,000 so we got 13 machines for free and a 160,000 profit.
two) coins stay stable or drop
the new offer by knc is BTC offer. these are due in april of 2014. Please do not discuss btc with the machines we purchased as it is a meaningless discussion. Most of us did use btc to pay Tyrion70 but I simply went to coinbase and purchased 7.5 btc for about 80 usd a coin then used the btc to buy in. Since I live in a country that charges taxes in fiat my calculations are based on fiat not BTC.
If anyone thinks the selling half the machines for 25k each and halving all our dividends would mean we lose they do not have a real concept of investment. I do agree that selling half the machines may not be the best choice for max profit. but it absolutely makes a real world fiat profit. For each and every one of us. It make us all guaranteed winners. Keeping all the machines and hashing does not make us a guaranteed winner. I happen to be a USA citizen but frankly if I did live in the UK and used the pound the same would be true. If I lived in any country that uses the EURO it would be true. If I lived in Japan or China it would be true.
The down side to selling half the machines at 25k each say 14 for 350,000 usd. and we paid 190,000 usd for all the machines does exist.
one) coins to jump to 10000 a coin
two) deal goes bad and we do not get paid.
the upside
one) we get 350,000 we paid 190,000 so we got 13 machines for free and a 160,000 profit.
two) coins stay stable or drop
I believe each kncminer cost about 60 BTC ( when btc was about $110)
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested -( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested
-( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .Selling them for 25 BTC will not get them to ROI.
I've been thinking a lot about it. I seriously think the only way (and a long shot tbh) to get them to ROI is as soon as they become not cost effective for BTC; we have to put them to mine an alt coin that could eventually appreciate against BTC (as has been happening these last days, presumably this was wave 1 and it will happen again in the future). Then we would finally get our BTC back.
Lately Namecoin appreciated 3-4x so that should help a little in these coming payments.
I think altcoin is not a solution. Because currently, only scrypt-based alt-coin (like Litecoin) is more profitable than bitcoin. Current ASIC miners cannot mine scrypt-based coins. They only mine SHA256-based coins. If there is any SHA256 altcoin more profitable than BTC, those ASIC miners' owners will immediately swap to mine that altcoin, and making it unprofitable.
I believe each kncminer cost about 60 BTC ( when btc was about $110)
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested -( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested
-( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .We are definitely loosing if we sell at 25 BTC. If we look at the BTC/USD exchange rate when we calculate our benefit, why not simply holding BTC (instead of investing on KNC mining machines) in the first place?
I guess this (looking at the BTC/USD exchange rate) violates the shareholders' original intention.
I believe each kncminer cost about 60 BTC ( when btc was about $110)
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested -( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested
-( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .Selling them for 25 BTC will not get them to ROI.
I've been thinking a lot about it. I seriously think the only way (and a long shot tbh) to get them to ROI is as soon as they become not cost effective for BTC; we have to put them to mine an alt coin that could eventually appreciate against BTC (as has been happening these last days, presumably this was wave 1 and it will happen again in the future). Then we would finally get our BTC back.
Lately Namecoin appreciated 3-4x so that should help a little in these coming payments.
I believe each kncminer cost about 60 BTC ( when btc was about $110)
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested -( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs .
selling for 25 BTC is loss in btc ( not a $ loss)---- I hope over the life of the kncminer we will at least get the same amount of BTC that we invested
-( I think to date they have returned about 25% of BTC invested)- other wise it would be better to hold BTC and not invest in mining rigs . hi boss, i heard that jupiters can be sold in market for 25 btc each. if 1 btc=1k usd, then that's 25k usd. i dont know if this rumor is true. but if its true, do you think its a good idea to sell our miners at 25 btc each?
Our group buy is going to sell one of our 2. read this thread and look at my test probe for a usa ebay price. Also see that I figured a way to force BTC and not paypal on an ebay sale. this would mean no chargebacks. I can help tyrion70 with instructions on an ebay sale that will accept only BTC.
look at this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=334360.0
see this post on the thread. this is from page 4 post 77.
the offer history. I am going to be gone for a few days I ended the listing as I feared someone would pay the 32222 asking price is I left it up!
and the ad
and the ad
hi boss, i heard that jupiters can be sold in market for 25 btc each. if 1 btc=1k usd, then that's 25k usd. i dont know if this rumor is true. but if its true, do you think its a good idea to sell our miners at 25 btc each?
does someone received btc from weex? >:(something is wrong
More people (including us) are experiencing issues with weex. Last official information is here;https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitfunder-moving-forwardresolution-process-348468
The owner of Bitfunder (Ukyo) has asked for help from Neo&Bee apparently. We're hoping they fix these issues soon. This was one of the main reasons why we stopped payments on bitfunder but switched to direct payments..
does someone received btc from weex? >:(something is wrong
O, and I just processed all transfers. new list is here: http://pastebin.com/v5xhYTgh
Only 6763 unconfirmed shares left
Only 6763 unconfirmed shares left
if worst case senario, the unconfirmed shares still not yet being claim after end of 2 years running the rig. whats the plan ? keep it until someone come and collect it ?
If it were my shares I'd be pretty bummed out if someone just gave my dividends away
On the other hand, it costs us extra efforts to keep those payments seperate and calculate the backpay owned.We just hope that everyone will get in touch with us. So far we can't really complain it's only 2% that's unclaimed.
O, and I just processed all transfers. new list is here: http://pastebin.com/v5xhYTgh
Only 6763 unconfirmed shares left
Only 6763 unconfirmed shares left
if worst case senario, the unconfirmed shares still not yet being claim after end of 2 years running the rig. whats the plan ? keep it until someone come and collect it ?
Yes - thank you for your constant engagement, transparency, honesty and professionalism. You guys rock!
Thanks for all the answers tryrion !
Amazing job as usual.
Amazing job as usual.
O, and I just processed all transfers. new list is here: http://pastebin.com/v5xhYTgh
Only 6763 unconfirmed shares left
Only 6763 unconfirmed shares left
Name coin 0.0115!! Imo time 1-2 months and we'll switch to mine only altcoins 
Will be nice to get the roi on the expensive shares of the pre-Bitfunder era
( or even here http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency/?sha256HashRate=1000.00&sha256Power=500.00&sha256PowerCost=0.1000&scryptHashRate=750&scryptPower=350.00&scryptPowerCost=0.4000&sha256Check=false&scryptCheck=true )
You linked to a scrypt comparison.. We can only mine sha256 coins (that are not merged with bitcoin like namecoin): Will be nice to get the roi on the expensive shares of the pre-Bitfunder era( or even here http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency/?sha256HashRate=1000.00&sha256Power=500.00&sha256PowerCost=0.1000&scryptHashRate=750&scryptPower=350.00&scryptPowerCost=0.4000&sha256Check=false&scryptCheck=true )
http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency/?sha256HashRate=1000.00&sha256Power=500.00&sha256PowerCost=0.1000&scryptHashRate=750.00&scryptPower=350.00&scryptPowerCost=0.4000&sha256Check=true&scryptCheck=false
Didn't find anything within this thread. But there is https://www.multipool.us/ which can mine the most profitable SHA-256 and Scrypt coin per hour.
The problem with multipool is that ppl manipulate the prices of altcoins in order to make certain coins "look" profitable while they are not. It's great if you are GPU mining and have a lot of spare time to actually check profitability, but not something you want to do with 14+TH atm. Also don't forget that you can't sell newly minted coins. They need to mature first which can take a few hours up to a whole day depending on the coin. Could we eventually put these to mine alt-coins?
Can you guys tell me the total monthly cost to have these runing (housing + energy + ?? )?
Yes we can, but so far no SHA-256 altcoin has proven to have a long term higher profitability than Bitcoin. That might of course change in the future..Can you guys tell me the total monthly cost to have these runing (housing + energy + ?? )?
The cost for housing and energy (what we pay the datacenter) is 200eur/miner/month paid weekly. Thats why hosting costs have been going down every week
If Blastbob & Tyrion70 were to engage in another GB, would the value of our Addiction shares be diluted i.e. currently each share is worth approx 28.23MH/s (I think it's more than this right?) so if they bought Neptunes would current share value essentially be worth 1/6 of what they were as the hashing power of a neptune is approximately 6x more than a Jupiter? In other words would the new Neptune buyers shares receive 6x as many shares as I have for my equivalent Jupiter GB, or I misunderstanding this completely?
Question is kinda moot since we won't buy Neptunes due to the price/delivery date combination but we might find some hardware in the future somewhere so this is how we would do it:Currently we have 27*12400 shares (334800 total). We have little over 14TH so thats 41.8MH per share (
).Say we buy a Neptune which does 3TH (actual number). Then we could issue 3.000.000 (MH) / 41.8 == 71770 shares per miner. That would mean we'd had a total hashrate of 17TH (14+3) with 406570 shares (334800 + 71770). That would keep the hashrate per share on 17.000.000 / 406570 == 41.8 MH / share
So no dilution..So far the questions
As for the Neptunes.. We think one of the great things of our groupbuy was the fact that we (Blastbob and myself) were (a big) part of the group. It wouldn't feel right for us to start a groupbuy on Neptunes if we wouldn't invest (heavily) in them ourselves. As it stands Blastbob and myself don't think that those miners are a good investment from a BTC perspective. While the ROI calculation we posted above was pretty negative (with 110%/month), I remember clearly when we started this groupbuy that we thought an average 16% increase of difficulty between June 5th and now was highly unlikely.. I just looked it up, in the period between June 5th and delivery we've seen one diff change below 16%.... on average it was almost 29%. So even though the last one was "only" 20% and the next one will be around 16% that in no way guarantees we will continue to get those percentages the following months.
Lastly we find delivery in Q1/Q2 way to wide.. We bought the Jupiters with a September delivery in mind.. They produced their first Jupiter September 30th 23:50. Even though we feel KnC did a marvelous job and we can't complain about getting a 500+ device while we bought a 350 device, we fear Q1/Q2 will end up being June 30th 2014. Now thats pretty far away
Cheers,
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