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Topic: [Bitfunder] TAT.ASICMINER New Micro-share Passthrough - page 5. (Read 11492 times)

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
I support the idea, in fact I think I was the one to propose it, but I can not see why this would cost anyone 5% of dividends. Both the regular PTs have waived their dividend fees, and I'm fairly certain the effort involved in issuing one command per week isn't worth those 5%. If you get half the size of the BTCT PT, that'll be over ฿3 per week for essentially issuing one command.

When I suggested the idea, including a fee, I was thinking something along the lines of 0.1% upwards limited to ฿1 per week or something like that.

The same goes for the other 100PT that was announced on BTCT, BTW.

Finally, I dislike the idea of running a mining operation as part of a PT, but that's solely a personal preference in that I like to keep my interests 'clean' from additional variance whenever possible. I would much prefer that the board, if received, would go into a separate stock.

.b

I posted on the other 1/100 PT in response to a similar question regarding fees.  Running the ASICMINER-PT has been very time consuming, way more so than I originally anticipated.  If I were not seeing benefit at the BTC-TC level (mind share and trade volume) for my efforts, it would be very difficult to justify to the wife why I'm responding to PM's all night.  Wink  DeaDTerra's free PT was the first of it's kind, and has put downward pressure on ASICMINER-PT to be competitive, but with these 1/100 PT's I think they're providing a unique product, and you definitely want to keep the manager in a PT motivated.

Cheers.


I understand it takes some work to cope with requests, but c'mon... 5% lost in profit is a massive cost over the lifetime of a shareholding for people that buy and hold. Traders, perhaps the true audience for this asset, wouldn't mind, so they would essentially be trading this like there's no tomorrow. The burden of activity would come from those, not from the people who want to invest long-term.

In essence, this is a 5% tax on investors to fund traders. Instead, impose a ridiculous fee on transfers and other activities that actually cost time. Then, traders would pay for what actually takes time while longer term investors could get away with a fee that resembles their burden on the operator.

I like the way you have motioned this for your PT; one transfer per month is free, after that, you pay.

.b

I think the time breakdown for me is very roughly:

30% Answering PM's asking about ASICMINER-PT and ASICMINER.
30% Reading threads and responding.  (kind of PR. mostly just keeping facts straight.)
30% Managing transfers.
10% Moving divs when they come in, checking to make sure the right amount came in, scheduling divs, manually issuing divs that are screwed up because they're mid-transfer with Friedcat.  Wink

The first two categories are difficult to value, and yet are valuable to all investors in your asset. 

The other interesting consideration here is that long-term investors when they get to 100-ish shares can sell them and buy up to a long-term holding situation direct with ASICMINER or one of the 1 to 1 PT's.

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
I support the idea, in fact I think I was the one to propose it, but I can not see why this would cost anyone 5% of dividends. Both the regular PTs have waived their dividend fees, and I'm fairly certain the effort involved in issuing one command per week isn't worth those 5%. If you get half the size of the BTCT PT, that'll be over ฿3 per week for essentially issuing one command.

When I suggested the idea, including a fee, I was thinking something along the lines of 0.1% upwards limited to ฿1 per week or something like that.

The same goes for the other 100PT that was announced on BTCT, BTW.

Finally, I dislike the idea of running a mining operation as part of a PT, but that's solely a personal preference in that I like to keep my interests 'clean' from additional variance whenever possible. I would much prefer that the board, if received, would go into a separate stock.

.b

I posted on the other 1/100 PT in response to a similar question regarding fees.  Running the ASICMINER-PT has been very time consuming, way more so than I originally anticipated.  If I were not seeing benefit at the BTC-TC level (mind share and trade volume) for my efforts, it would be very difficult to justify to the wife why I'm responding to PM's all night.  Wink  DeaDTerra's free PT was the first of it's kind, and has put downward pressure on ASICMINER-PT to be competitive, but with these 1/100 PT's I think they're providing a unique product, and you definitely want to keep the manager in a PT motivated.

Cheers.


I understand it takes some work to cope with requests, but c'mon... 5% lost in profit is a massive cost over the lifetime of a shareholding for people that buy and hold. Traders, perhaps the true audience for this asset, wouldn't mind, so they would essentially be trading this like there's no tomorrow. The burden of activity would come from those, not from the people who want to invest long-term.

In essence, this is a 5% tax on investors to fund traders. Instead, impose a ridiculous fee on transfers and other activities that actually cost time. Then, traders would pay for what actually takes time while longer term investors could get away with a fee that resembles their burden on the operator.

I like the way you have motioned this for your PT; one transfer per month is free, after that, you pay.

.b
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
I support the idea, in fact I think I was the one to propose it, but I can not see why this would cost anyone 5% of dividends. Both the regular PTs have waived their dividend fees, and I'm fairly certain the effort involved in issuing one command per week isn't worth those 5%. If you get half the size of the BTCT PT, that'll be over ฿3 per week for essentially issuing one command.

When I suggested the idea, including a fee, I was thinking something along the lines of 0.1% upwards limited to ฿1 per week or something like that.

The same goes for the other 100PT that was announced on BTCT, BTW.

Finally, I dislike the idea of running a mining operation as part of a PT, but that's solely a personal preference in that I like to keep my interests 'clean' from additional variance whenever possible. I would much prefer that the board, if received, would go into a separate stock.

.b

I posted on the other 1/100 PT in response to a similar question regarding fees.  Running the ASICMINER-PT has been very time consuming, way more so than I originally anticipated.  If I were not seeing benefit at the BTC-TC level (mind share and trade volume) for my efforts, it would be very difficult to justify to the wife why I'm responding to PM's all night.  Wink  DeaDTerra's free PT was the first of it's kind, and has put downward pressure on ASICMINER-PT to be competitive, but with these 1/100 PT's I think they're providing a unique product, and you definitely want to keep the manager in a PT motivated.

Cheers.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I support the idea, in fact I think I was the one to propose it, but I can not see why this would cost anyone 5% of dividends. Both the regular PTs have waived their dividend fees, and I'm fairly certain the effort involved in issuing one command per week isn't worth those 5%. If you get half the size of the BTCT PT, that'll be over ฿3 per week for essentially issuing one command.
When I suggested the idea, including a fee, I was thinking something along the lines of 0.1% upwards limited to ฿1 per week or something like that.
The same goes for the other 100PT that was announced on BTCT, BTW.
Finally, I dislike the idea of running a mining operation as part of a PT, but that's solely a personal preference in that I like to keep my interests 'clean' from additional variance whenever possible. I would much prefer that the board, if received, would go into a separate stock.
.b

Thank for your comments, I'm glad you asked about these points!

Management Fees
5% is a very little when you consider the work, responsibility, and risk at play here. Even if we build this asset up to 500,000 fractional shares  (enough for a board seat), the management fee would likely end up being worth roughly $800-$1200 per month. That is not very much considering that would also mean being responsible for more than $500,000 worth of assets.

The fact is that doing this work responsibly does take time. If you look at the majority of asset operators in the cryptocoin world, I think you would agree that most do a poor job of maintaining its growth, and an even worse job of communicating with shareholders. That is not how I do things. Seeing the laggard laggard and scammy ways of other operators is partly why I am getting into this game, because I know I can play it better, and I know shareholders deserve better. If you want a quality operator, you must expect for that operator to be compensated fairly.

This asset is not a way for me to make a million bucks, it is largely a way for me to further make a name for myself and allow me to create new opportunities for myself and other bitcoiners.

You must consider that in the case of Burnside's ASICMINER PT, he gets a lot more money from trading fees, more than he could ever get from a single-digit management fee. He was forced into forgoing his management fees in order to stay competitive with the competing passthrough at Bitfunder. Now, Bitfunder's incentives are similar as well. DeadTerra is a big part of Bitfunder and Ukyo's success, and the more trading that happens at Bitfunder, the more they both benefit. This is why you see no management fees, both of those exchanges have much larger alternative incentives. Neither is doing it strictly for the community.

Mining
I do have experience mining, and run a modest litecoin mining farm currently. The only reason it is a part of this asset is because Friedcat mentioned he may provide such a benefit to board members. I would like to share that benefit with shareholders when it finally happens, as well as any other tangible benefits that can reasonably be allowed to be shared. I suspect most people would disagree with you about splitting a board into a new asset. Plus, it's only one board, and not likely to be worth a stand-alone asset effort.

full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
www.bitcoingem.com
I support the idea, in fact I think I was the one to propose it, but I can not see why this would cost anyone 5% of dividends. Both the regular PTs have waived their dividend fees, and I'm fairly certain the effort involved in issuing one command per week isn't worth those 5%. If you get half the size of the BTCT PT, that'll be over ฿3 per week for essentially issuing one command.

When I suggested the idea, including a fee, I was thinking something along the lines of 0.1% upwards limited to ฿1 per week or something like that.

The same goes for the other 100PT that was announced on BTCT, BTW.

Finally, I dislike the idea of running a mining operation as part of a PT, but that's solely a personal preference in that I like to keep my interests 'clean' from additional variance whenever possible. I would much prefer that the board, if received, would go into a separate stock.

.b

I completely agree with everything mentioned above
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
http://coin.furuknap.net/
I support the idea, in fact I think I was the one to propose it, but I can not see why this would cost anyone 5% of dividends. Both the regular PTs have waived their dividend fees, and I'm fairly certain the effort involved in issuing one command per week isn't worth those 5%. If you get half the size of the BTCT PT, that'll be over ฿3 per week for essentially issuing one command.

When I suggested the idea, including a fee, I was thinking something along the lines of 0.1% upwards limited to ฿1 per week or something like that.

The same goes for the other 100PT that was announced on BTCT, BTW.

Finally, I dislike the idea of running a mining operation as part of a PT, but that's solely a personal preference in that I like to keep my interests 'clean' from additional variance whenever possible. I would much prefer that the board, if received, would go into a separate stock.

.b
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I'll probably release shares in waves, while keeping an eye on demand. I am also initiating one or two more bulk deals before the IPO. Expect 20,000+ fractional shares to be available, but I'll be working with a much larger pool than that.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
www.bitcoingem.com
Great idea, how many shares are available at the IPO?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Looking forward to this so I can take my G.ASICMINER-PT dividends and buy some of your split shares until I have enough for a full share.  Grin

This is a great way to use the asset. Buying the split shares allows for easy reinvestment, and thus compounded interest.
inh
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
Looking forward to this so I can take my G.ASICMINER-PT dividends and buy some of your split shares until I have enough for a full share.  Grin
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
Announcing a new way to invest in ASICMINER, the TAT.ASICMINER split-share passthrough. You'll find the full details below.

This is asset has already been approved to go live on Bitfunder later this week, but I wanted to pre-announce and give everyone an opportunity to ask questions. Thank you!

Quote
TAT.ASICMINER Asset, by ThickAsThieves.Investments

TAT.ASICMINER represents fractional shares of the ASICMINER Mining Company. ASICMINER is a market leader in the bitcoin mining industry, creating various mining equipment for sale, as well as running their own mining farm.

Proceeds from mining and sale of equipment are distributed to shareholders as weekly dividends. This asset represents fractional passthrough shares of the underlying asset, receiving a proportional amount of dividends for each share.

This is asset is being offered for the following purposes:
1. To provide an additional venue for investors to buy or sell ASICMINER shares more easily by splitting the shares.
2. To provide an easy way for ASICMINER shareholders to reinvest their dividends to maximize compounded interest opportunties.
3. To consolidate enough ASICMINER shares so as to reach 5,000 whole shares, thus increasing their inherent value with potential access to ASICMINER’s established and future board member benefits, namely any hardware opportunities ASICMINER provides exclusively to board members.

Shares
Each 1 share of TAT.ASICMINER represents 1/100th of a share of ASICMINER maintained and verified by either Friedcat or any officially designated exchange, and has rights to 1/100th of the dividends of a whole ASICMINER share.

Dividends
Each TAT.ASICMINER share has the right to 95% of its respective dividends. 5% will be retained for asset management fees. The amount of the dividend is defined as the same amount distributed by ASICMINER to the shares held by the issuer for this asset. Dividends will be paid within 48 hours or less of confirmed payments from ASICMINER.

Voting Rights
Any public votes presented by ASICMINER will be decided by the issuer for all asset shares at his own discretion.

Quantity and Source of Shares
Shares cannot be imported or exported by shareholders, but can be freely bought and sold. Shares may be imported at will by the issuer alone.

Additional Dividends or Benefits from Board Member Status
Once the passthrough reaches 5,000 whole ASICMINER shares (500,000 split shares) it may receive a board member seat. If board member status is confirmed, and Friedcat follows through with the plan to give each board member a trial ASICMINER mining board, any income generated will be shares as follows:

85% of the mining income will be paid out to the shareholders of TAT.ASICMINER on the same weekly dividend schedule ASICMINER currently uses. At the discretion of the TAT.ASICMINER issuer, these extra dividends may be distributed sooner.

NOTE: This passthrough exists on both Bitfunder.com and BTCT.co, but acts as only ONE asset, and is thus only eligible to share any board member benefits as ONE seat, among ALL TAT.ASICMINER shareholders.

Reserved Rights
Issuer reserves the following rights.
1. To change schedule of dividends to be in line with any changes in schedule the underlying asset may enact.
2. To change the % of board mining profits withheld if expenses, like electricity, are not covered by the 15% portion being withheld.
3. To make changes to this contract that represent the best interests of its shareholders
4. To correct and clarify any gross errors or details herein that may prove to be open to misinterpretation.
5. To limit the total amount of shares allowed within the asset once it has reached 5000 whole shares (500,000 split shares).

Dissolution
In the event that the issuer chooses to, or is forced to, close this asset for any reason, the following methods may be used for dissolution in any combination:
1. A new operator may be vetted and chosen by ThickAsThieves to take over control of the asset.
2. Shares may be bought back from shareholders at a reasonable market value.
3. Shares may be converted to direct whole shares and redistributed to shareholder e-mail accounts with Friedcat.
4. Shares may be converted into equivalent whole shares on any other existing ASICMINER passthrough or exchange and redistributed to shareholders.

Issuer Info
ThickAsThieves is a Tier 5 BitFunder trader, and has offered identity information privately to BitFunder as a gesture of good faith, and an avenue for emergency contact.

A “dead man’s switch” will be implemented in order to pass control of this asset to a safe secondary operator in the case of the issuer’s untimely demise or hospitalization.

ThickAsThieves makes no guarantees in the case of unexpected behavior of the underlying asset company or the decisions of ASICMINER and/or BITFOUNTAIN. This is only a passthrough, and the actions of ASICMINER will drive the definition of this asset in kind.

IRC: on Freenode, ThickAsThieves
E-mail: tat.investments -at- gmail.com
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