Now, assuming you do have back ups in at least two separate locations (as you should), what are the chances of your main wallet and all your back ups (i.e. 3 separate locations) all being destroyed simultaneously?
If they are in the same city, but a couple of kilometres apart, that still wouldn't protect you from a devastating earthquake that can equally hit your primary and secondary location. Assuming that you have stashed your seed in such a way, I am thinking you wouldn't place one backup on another continent. It's probably somewhere close enough for you to reach in a reasonable time frame that doesn't involve 1000s kilometres of travelling to. 
Topic: BITHD Frozen Armor - review (Read 769 times)
Sure it does, but you can also split seed words in multiple locations, so that no single location have all seed words.
You have to be careful with this, as it does not necessarily give you redundancy. If you split your seed in to 3 parts (for example), and still require all 3 parts to recover from, then losing one part is akin to losing your entire seed. To still have redundancy in your back ups and not have a single point of failure, then you either need to back up each part more than once, or use something like a 3-of-5 secret share. But having more than one location opens up new security issues. Is every location safe enough from burglary and theft? With each new location, the security risk only increases.
True, but this can be mitigated.If you were to split your seed in to a 3-of-5 as I said above using something like Shamir's Secret Sharing, then an attacker who finds a single piece learns absolutely nothing. This technique essentially creates all-or-nothing secrets, where any number of shares less than the required number doesn't reveal anything about the secret.
An easier technique is to simply use a long and complex passphrase, which you also have backed up, but separately from your seed phrase. If an attacker finds your seed phrase, they can't access your coins without the passphrase. If an attacker finds your passphrase, they can't access your coins without your seed phrase.
But having more than one location opens up new security issues. Is every location safe enough from burglary and theft? With each new location, the security risk only increases.
Sure it does, but you can also split seed words in multiple locations, so that no single location have all seed words.
Sure, having backups on several places and locations is best thing you can do.
I just don't like using paper and pen, as I saw many examples of that being faded or lost.
I just don't like using paper and pen, as I saw many examples of that being faded or lost.
But having more than one location opens up new security issues. Is every location safe enough from burglary and theft? With each new location, the security risk only increases.
Sure, having backups on several places and locations is best thing you can do.
I just don't like using paper and pen, as I saw many examples of that being faded or lost.
There is always small chances for that to happen, or like in quarantine for example.
You can not move to your other location even if you want.
So you don't have access to second or third location if first is destroyed.
I just don't like using paper and pen, as I saw many examples of that being faded or lost.
Now, assuming you do have back ups in at least two separate locations (as you should), what are the chances of your main wallet and all your back ups (i.e. 3 separate locations) all being destroyed simultaneously?
There is always small chances for that to happen, or like in quarantine for example.
You can not move to your other location even if you want.
So you don't have access to second or third location if first is destroyed.
The simplest and cheapest solution, in any case much better than plain paper that is in a common place in the house/apartment, exposed to fire, curious pets or children looking for any available paper for their artwork.
I use laminated paper for all my back ups, I have never purchased any of these devices or even a plain copper plate as suggested, and I don't feel in the least bit insecure with my back ups. Why? Because of redundancy.Everyone should have more than one back up. Having one of these devices is all well and good - it will survive fire, water, acid, crushing, etc. What if there is a devastating fire/earthquake/gas explosion/bomb/etc, and your device is buried under an entire house/apartment complex/highrise worth of rubble? What if there is a tornado and you device ends up a mile away from your house? No use it being intact if you can't actually find it. That's why you should always have at least two back ups in geographically separate locations.
Now, assuming you do have back ups in at least two separate locations (as you should), what are the chances of your main wallet and all your back ups (i.e. 3 separate locations) all being destroyed simultaneously?
I would personally choose Crypto Keys.
They look like real keys we use everyday, and they also survived all tests.
They look like real keys we use everyday, and they also survived all tests.
Definitely one of the options I would personally consider, cheap + easy + proven fire, acid and high pressure resistant. It also comes bundled with 3D printed stamp holder (as option), and all that for $35.
Cheapest option:
- Buy Copper plate at your local shop, and carve your own seed words
- Buy Copper plate at your local shop, and carve your own seed words
The simplest and cheapest solution, in any case much better than plain paper that is in a common place in the house/apartment, exposed to fire, curious pets or children looking for any available paper for their artwork.
The author of the test eventually concludes that his choice would be Quadrat Register because "device is built like a tank and I suspect could survive getting run over by one", but quality comes at a price of 365 EUR.
I would personally choose Crypto Keys.
They look like real keys we use everyday, and they also survived all tests.
Not to mention that they are one of the cheapest options from all he tested. Safeseed is even cheaper, $16.
He also said:
''Two of the top performing devices - Crypto Keys and Safe Seed, were also two of the cheapest!'
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Cheapest option:
- Buy Copper plate at your local shop, and carve your own seed words
Nice looking images. Thanks for providing this additional information.
Interesting read for sure.
Interesting read for sure.
Definitely something that gives a much clearer picture in case someone decides to invest in this type of protection. There is the old saying "Not all that shines is gold", and it is obvious that there are a lot of such products on the market, some of which are definitely not reliable.
How long will your average paper last in fire? 
Note:
Plates are made from Aluminium, but not the characters. Like it was stated before.
Note:
Plates are made from Aluminium, but not the characters. Like it was stated before.
Plain paper will burn even if it is caught by the flame of an ordinary match or candle, but here we cannot put things in that context (unless we are joking of course). Aluminum housing is really not a good idea because it deforms at relatively low temperatures (when we talk about fires), and characters in that case can be made of the most resistant material in the world, but if they fall out of the housing we can no longer say we have a backup (at least not 100% correct one).
Looks like the best alternative for this purpose would be:
The author of the test eventually concludes that his choice would be Quadrat Register because "device is built like a tank and I suspect could survive getting run over by one", but quality comes at a price of 365 EUR.
As for high temperatures, this method of storing seeds has proven to be very inefficient when it comes to BITHD Frozen Armor. It was tested and it was determined that after 6 minutes the first signs of decay occur, because aluminum melts already at the temperatures that occur in a normal house fire. Unless something has changed since 2019 when the test was done, you can expect this after 6 minutes of exposure to fire.
And this is results of exposure to muriatic acid :
Further tests were of course no longer possible due to the condition of the device, and in the test of 12 devices of this type BITHD Frozen Armor took 10th place.
I would just like to look at the number of delivered characters, especially to those who are not part of seed words and upper/lower case letters. The only thing that makes sense is that the manufacturer has taken into account the possibility that someone might use this device to store passwords/passphrase, and that this device is not only for 24 words seed, some users will need only 12 words + extra word.
Source of information (test for BITHD Frozen Armor is on third link)
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Special thanks to @Saint-loup for links.
And this is results of exposure to muriatic acid :
Further tests were of course no longer possible due to the condition of the device, and in the test of 12 devices of this type BITHD Frozen Armor took 10th place.
I would just like to look at the number of delivered characters, especially to those who are not part of seed words and upper/lower case letters. The only thing that makes sense is that the manufacturer has taken into account the possibility that someone might use this device to store passwords/passphrase, and that this device is not only for 24 words seed, some users will need only 12 words + extra word.
Source of information (test for BITHD Frozen Armor is on third link)
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Special thanks to @Saint-loup for links.
Nice looking images. Thanks for providing this additional information.
Interesting read for sure.
How long will your average paper last in fire?
Note:
Plates are made from Aluminium, but not the characters. Like it was stated before.
`304 stainless steel: 2624℉.
Aviation aluminum alloy: 1220℉.`
source: bithd.com
Depends on the paper:
http://www.ceramicfiber.net/ceramicfiberpaper.htm
But seriously, I have my paper wallets in a fireproof / waterproof bag in a fireproof safe.
The issue I see with a product like this is it's metal. How many people are going to be a bit less protective of it.
Put it in a safe, but not a fireproof one.
Hide it where it really can't be found without really tearing up your home but not in a safe place for fire...because you know it's metal....
Just a thought.
-Dave
As for high temperatures, this method of storing seeds has proven to be very inefficient when it comes to BITHD Frozen Armor. It was tested and it was determined that after 6 minutes the first signs of decay occur, because aluminum melts already at the temperatures that occur in a normal house fire. Unless something has changed since 2019 when the test was done, you can expect this after 6 minutes of exposure to fire.
And this is results of exposure to muriatic acid :
Further tests were of course no longer possible due to the condition of the device, and in the test of 12 devices of this type BITHD Frozen Armor took 10th place.
I would just like to look at the number of delivered characters, especially to those who are not part of seed words and upper/lower case letters. The only thing that makes sense is that the manufacturer has taken into account the possibility that someone might use this device to store passwords/passphrase, and that this device is not only for 24 words seed, some users will need only 12 words + extra word.
Source of information (test for BITHD Frozen Armor is on third link)
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Special thanks to @Saint-loup for links.
And this is results of exposure to muriatic acid :
Further tests were of course no longer possible due to the condition of the device, and in the test of 12 devices of this type BITHD Frozen Armor took 10th place.
I would just like to look at the number of delivered characters, especially to those who are not part of seed words and upper/lower case letters. The only thing that makes sense is that the manufacturer has taken into account the possibility that someone might use this device to store passwords/passphrase, and that this device is not only for 24 words seed, some users will need only 12 words + extra word.
Source of information (test for BITHD Frozen Armor is on third link)
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Special thanks to @Saint-loup for links.
Nice looking images. Thanks for providing this additional information.
Interesting read for sure.
How long will your average paper last in fire?
Note:
Plates are made from Aluminium, but not the characters. Like it was stated before.
`304 stainless steel: 2624℉.
Aviation aluminum alloy: 1220℉.`
source: bithd.com
Looks like the best alternative for this purpose would be:
source: https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Makes you wonder if it's an "off the shelf" product that they put some very minor customization on.
No other reason I can think of for the non letter stuff to be included and the odd amount of letters.
-Dave
No other reason I can think of for the non letter stuff to be included and the odd amount of letters.
-Dave
Yeah, it could be.
I will try to ask them for their official explanation.
They must make a lot of changes and improvements for sure.
Makes you wonder if it's an "off the shelf" product that they put some very minor customization on.
No other reason I can think of for the non letter stuff to be included and the odd amount of letters.
-Dave
As for high temperatures, this method of storing seeds has proven to be very inefficient when it comes to BITHD Frozen Armor. It was tested and it was determined that after 6 minutes the first signs of decay occur, because aluminum melts already at the temperatures that occur in a normal house fire. Unless something has changed since 2019 when the test was done, you can expect this after 6 minutes of exposure to fire.
And this is results of exposure to muriatic acid :
Further tests were of course no longer possible due to the condition of the device, and in the test of 12 devices of this type BITHD Frozen Armor took 10th place.
I would just like to look at the number of delivered characters, especially to those who are not part of seed words and upper/lower case letters. The only thing that makes sense is that the manufacturer has taken into account the possibility that someone might use this device to store passwords/passphrase, and that this device is not only for 24 words seed, some users will need only 12 words + extra word.
Source of information (test for BITHD Frozen Armor is on third link)
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Special thanks to @Saint-loup for links.
And this is results of exposure to muriatic acid :
Further tests were of course no longer possible due to the condition of the device, and in the test of 12 devices of this type BITHD Frozen Armor took 10th place.
I would just like to look at the number of delivered characters, especially to those who are not part of seed words and upper/lower case letters. The only thing that makes sense is that the manufacturer has taken into account the possibility that someone might use this device to store passwords/passphrase, and that this device is not only for 24 words seed, some users will need only 12 words + extra word.
Source of information (test for BITHD Frozen Armor is on third link)
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-round-iii/
Special thanks to @Saint-loup for links.
Ahh, I thought those additional "h"s were "k"s from the original photos. True enough, you can inscribe an additional letter or two as needed on the blank tiles.
It just strikes me as very strange they provide a sheet of numbers considering there are no numbers anywhere in BIP39, especially when they don't provide enough letters. Why not an additional sheet of letters? It's also rather strange that they provide one sheet of upper case letters and two sheets of lower case letters like that.
It just strikes me as very strange they provide a sheet of numbers considering there are no numbers anywhere in BIP39, especially when they don't provide enough letters. Why not an additional sheet of letters? It's also rather strange that they provide one sheet of upper case letters and two sheets of lower case letters like that.
I agree it's very stupid.
Not only that, other side of that plate contains characters like: +,-,),(,*,%,$,#,@,!
ftw bloody dollar sign?!
how about ฿ ?
PS
There are 3 sides of upper case, and on other sides are lower case characters.
1 plate are numbers and on the other sides characters I mentioned.
Correct. All I got is that 4 metal panels (with sharp edges).
Ahh, I thought those additional "h"s were "k"s from the original photos. True enough, you can inscribe an additional letter or two as needed on the blank tiles or on the back of a different tile.It just strikes me as very strange they provide a sheet of numbers considering there are no numbers anywhere in BIP39, especially when they don't provide enough letters. Why not an additional sheet of letters? It's also rather strange that they provide one sheet of upper case letters and two sheets of lower case letters like that.
Are these 4 panels all the letters you get? Are the tiles double sided with different letters on the reverse? If not, that's not enough.
I generated a seed on Ian Coleman, and the first seed I generated doesn't have enough of two letters
First four letters of each word:
Contains 10 "D"s, whereas you only have 9, and contains 5 "H"s, whereas you only have 4. Bit of a pain to get three quarters of the way entering your seed to find out you have run out of letters and have to generate a new seed and start again.
I generated a seed on Ian Coleman, and the first seed I generated doesn't have enough of two letters
Code:
able ride assume exhibit decline giraffe card lawsuit drum twenty elder taste used wash student amount hungry garden insect unaware dish indoor eight foster
First four letters of each word:
Code:
able ride assu exhi decl gira card laws drum twen elde tast used wash stud amou hung gard inse unaw dish indo eigh fost
Contains 10 "D"s, whereas you only have 9, and contains 5 "H"s, whereas you only have 4. Bit of a pain to get three quarters of the way entering your seed to find out you have run out of letters and have to generate a new seed and start again.
Correct. All I got is that 4 metal panels (with sharp edges).
And it is true that there are only 9 letters 'D'.
Photo quality is not perfect, but when enlarged you can see there are 7 letters 'H' (one side is upper case and other lower case).
One solution for missing letters is to use some of the 11 empty space characters and engrave your own letters.
Have you tried putting your seed words or some random words together? Seems like a very lengthy process. I wondered how long it would take for all 24 words.
I did do it on my own seed words.It does not take much time, but you need to have a bit of patients with small screws, and have some gloves to avoid mini cuts.
I generated a seed on Ian Coleman, and the first seed I generated doesn't have enough of two letters
Code:
able ride assume exhibit decline giraffe card lawsuit drum twenty elder taste used wash student amount hungry garden insect unaware dish indoor eight foster
First four letters of each word:
Code:
able ride assu exhi decl gira card laws drum twen elde tast used wash stud amou hung gard inse unaw dish indo eigh fost
Contains 10 "D"s, whereas you only have 9, and contains 5 "H"s, whereas you only have 4. Bit of a pain to get three quarters of the way entering your seed to find out you have run out of letters and have to generate a new seed and start again.
Although it looks nice and slick, unfortunately looks are irrelevant when it comes to a product like this. As LeGaulois says, what matters is how it stands up to damage, and if the letters stay secure and are still readable.
Have you tried putting your seed words or some random words together? Seems like a very lengthy process. I wondered how long it would take for all 24 words.
Quote
I did not test any of this features so far, but it is possible I may do it in future
It was one of the most important things to check and to show us as it is the main feature of the product. Especially before you really use it.
- Waterproof: not just 5 minutes in your bath but several days to accelerate a potential reaction and with the water from the rain if possible not a faucet (the Ph isn't the same).
- Shockproof; not just throw off the roof
- Fireproof: not just in the oven some minutes with your pizza, you need a high temperature, you can try with a chalumeau, it can reach 3000°C which is enough to compare it to a house fire.
- Acid: 304 stainless steel isn't the most resistant
At least I'd do it with each I receive. You're not immune to a manufacturing defect, and that's the kind of thing you need to know right away and not on the day you need it.
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