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Topic: BitShares 2.0 - Just the Facts Thread (Read 6805 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
November 06, 2016, 11:41:43 AM
#78
Quoted this in case r0ach remembers to delete it since he deleted the source copy.

whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?

Since NXT is standard proof of stake, just with some proprietary bandaids on top of it to try and mitigate it's core problems, it's mostly going to fall under this comparison I did here:

Standard proof of stake

A)  Coin ownership is network control, leading to enormous security risks since money tends to congregate in large financial institutions, meaning there probably has to be a separation between block validators (miners) and coin owners or the currency itself, unless you want Exchangenamehere or Goldman Sachs to always control the network from their deposits.

B)  Besides the above problem, you also have history attacks, nothing at stake attacks, etc.

C)  Coin age variable had to be dropped for security, so the largest stake holders essentially reap all stake rewards leaving no reason for anyone else to stake at all.  Some coins claim to solve this problem with pooled staking, but people tend to be lazy and things like this require people to be proactive to secure the blockchain.

D)  Stake reward tends not to be that high, and keeping coins online out of cold storage is a security risk, so even if it was the world reserve currency, a large percent of people would just not do it, leaving network control to large exchanges and banks.  There are just a lot of factors that tend to always place the network control in the hand of a traditional bank.

E)  One of the main draws of PoS is that you can validate blocks at home on cheap equipment and not use huge energy at the same time, yet this would also limit it's transactions per second to low speeds under all current implementations, having only enough to function as a clearing mechanism between banks or having large fees to use if the currency became big and still wanted to be staked in a home environment.

DPoS - Delegated Proof of Stake (Bitshares)

A)  Low overhead and large transaction processing ability rivaling entities like Visa in capacity and speed

B)  Possibly the best platform for running a decentralized exchange

C)  Deterministic number of block validators (101) that if all actors are unique, is much higher decentralization than Bitcoin PoW pool mining, although reputation and identity can be gamed for the same person to pretend to be multiple actors.

D)  In order to avoid reputation or identity gaming, some people such as Tim Swanson say the 101 block validators might have to be publicly known NGOs.  My personal opinion is that some of them being NGOs would probably be a good thing, but it would probably function fine with a mixture of NGOs, businesses, publicly known individuals, and anonymous individuals from many countries.

E)  Delegate voting requires people to be somewhat proactive, and people are generally lazy

F)  Some people claim this system mirrors the federal reserve branch model.  I don't have enough in-depth analysis of upward mobility in the federal reserve system, but I imagine it to be extremely low to non-existent, while Bitshares DPoS would probably be exponentially higher.

G)  Has USD pegged assets.  Some people claim this would be a derivative backed by itself.  Larimer claims the pegs hold fine as long as the network itself has value at all.  Analyzing exotic derivatives is not my speciality, and there are several ways to implement things like this, so you'll have to analyze that for yourself.

H) Anonymity functions in progress:  http://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17687.30.html

sr. member
Activity: 289
Merit: 250
September 08, 2015, 09:59:05 AM
#77
BTW It's looks like Ethereum devs also realize that they need something similar to DPOS.
Quote
Vitalik said another route would be to pay (inflation) PoS validators 'just enough' to incentivize about 1000 PoS validators to secure the network.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/3fxff9/achtung_what_all_eth_investors_must_realize

woot
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1018
September 07, 2015, 09:18:26 PM
#76
whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?

The main argument is that at scale NXT POS would anyway be transformed to Bitshares' DPOS because of economies of scale. The argument is: If thousand of tx per second have to be processed by NXT forgers they would anyway delegate their forging power to some specialized entity (data center or someone with a powerful server) because of the bandwidth requirements etc. 

The other argument is that you can reach much more tx speed if the number of block producing nodes are fixed (DPOS targets a 1 sec block time, starting with 5 sec in Bitshares 2.0).

Slightly related: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-pos-vs-bitshares-dpos/?PHPSESSID=7doicu7e2bnortfuvfjdhakp02

BTW It's looks like Ethereum devs also realize that they need something similar to DPOS.

Quote
Vitalik said another route would be to pay (inflation) PoS validators 'just enough' to incentivize about 1000 PoS validators to secure the network.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/3fxff9/achtung_what_all_eth_investors_must_realize
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
September 07, 2015, 08:39:45 PM
#75
There is a lot of rage about "smartcoin" in china, im guessing that's also BTS?

Well, we do have a lot of friends in China and we do refer to our market pegged assets as SmartcoinsTM...

Price Stable Cryptocurrencies

Hopefully you mean "rage" in a good way...

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
September 07, 2015, 06:03:57 PM
#74
There is a lot of rage about "smartcoin" in china, im guessing that's also BTS?
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
September 06, 2015, 11:40:39 AM
#73
whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?

The main argument is that at scale NXT POS would anyway be transformed to Bitshares' DPOS because of economies of scale. The argument is: If thousand of tx per second have to be processed by NXT forgers they would anyway delegate their forging power to some specialized entity (data center or someone with a powerful server) because of the bandwidth requirements etc. 

The other argument is that you can reach much more tx speed if the number of block producing nodes are fixed (DPOS targets a 1 sec block time, starting with 5 sec in Bitshares 2.0).

Slightly related: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-pos-vs-bitshares-dpos/?PHPSESSID=7doicu7e2bnortfuvfjdhakp02
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
September 06, 2015, 10:51:06 AM
#72
whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?

Since NXT is standard proof of stake, just with some proprietary bandaids on top of it to try and mitigate it's core problems, it's mostly going to fall under this comparison I did here:

Standard proof of stake

A)  Coin ownership is network control, leading to enormous security risks since money tends to congregate in large financial institutions, meaning there probably has to be a separation between block validators (miners) and coin owners or the currency itself, unless you want Exchangenamehere or Goldman Sachs to always control the network from their deposits.

B)  Besides the above problem, you also have history attacks, nothing at stake attacks, etc.

C)  Coin age variable had to be dropped for security, so the largest stake holders essentially reap all stake rewards leaving no reason for anyone else to stake at all.  Some coins claim to solve this problem with pooled staking, but people tend to be lazy and things like this require people to be proactive to secure the blockchain.

D)  Stake reward tends not to be that high, and keeping coins online out of cold storage is a security risk, so even if it was the world reserve currency, a large percent of people would just not do it, leaving network control to large exchanges and banks.  There are just a lot of factors that tend to always place the network control in the hand of a traditional bank.

E)  One of the main draws of PoS is that you can validate blocks at home on cheap equipment and not use huge energy at the same time, yet this would also limit it's transactions per second to low speeds under all current implementations, having only enough to function as a clearing mechanism between banks or having large fees to use if the currency became big and still wanted to be staked in a home environment.

DPoS - Delegated Proof of Stake (Bitshares)

A)  Low overhead and large transaction processing ability rivaling entities like Visa in capacity and speed

B)  Possibly the best platform for running a decentralized exchange

C)  Deterministic number of block validators (101) that if all actors are unique, is much higher decentralization than Bitcoin PoW pool mining, although reputation and identity can be gamed for the same person to pretend to be multiple actors.

D)  In order to avoid reputation or identity gaming, some people such as Tim Swanson say the 101 block validators might have to be publicly known NGOs.  My personal opinion is that some of them being NGOs would probably be a good thing, but it would probably function fine with a mixture of NGOs, businesses, publicly known individuals, and anonymous individuals from many countries.

E)  Delegate voting requires people to be somewhat proactive, and people are generally lazy

F)  Some people claim this system mirrors the federal reserve branch model.  I don't have enough in-depth analysis of upward mobility in the federal reserve system, but I imagine it to be extremely low to non-existent, while Bitshares DPoS would probably be exponentially higher.

G)  Has USD pegged assets.  Some people claim this would be a derivative backed by itself.  Larimer claims the pegs hold fine as long as the network itself has value at all.  Analyzing exotic derivatives is not my speciality, and there are several ways to implement things like this, so you'll have to analyze that for yourself.

H) Anonymity functions in progress:  http://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17687.30.html

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
September 06, 2015, 10:34:11 AM
#71
whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?

BitShares 2.0 SmartCoin Tech Overview [YouTube] http://blog.smartcoin.pw/2015/07/bitshares-20-smartcoin-tech-overview.html

check it out and compare.
sr. member
Activity: 289
Merit: 250
September 06, 2015, 10:30:45 AM
#70
whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?

For a list of BitShares features check https://bitshares.org/technology/

Any features you want to compare? should be easier to explain since both have lots of features.
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1023
September 06, 2015, 10:19:39 AM
#69
whats advantages does bts offer over say NXT?
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1000
September 06, 2015, 10:09:14 AM
#68
Before the countdown is announced from BTS, the price has already gone up.
The hype is strong on this, hopefully it won't disappoint everyone.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
September 06, 2015, 10:04:08 AM
#67
As having been one of the more critical people of Bitshares, as you can see in this thread, I don't really see any better alternative that accounts properly for tradeoffs between state actor vulnerability, decentralization, scaling, speed, out of the box functionality, consensus to alter the chain in the future, features, and other variables.  The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.  I went over all the comparisons between long term feasibility of each consensus mechanism here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-state-of-crypto-the-only-serious-thread-on-the-subforum-1171109

Anonymint is probably going to tell you he has the solution to every crypto problem on earth, but we have to consider that as vaporware unless he can actually solve and release something.  I believe everything in crypto has tradeoffs, and there is no perfect solution, so I'm pretty skeptical of that, especially since it utilizes PoW, which I consider a dead end solution and only proof of concept.
sr. member
Activity: 289
Merit: 250
September 06, 2015, 09:34:30 AM
#66
wow nice volume!
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
September 04, 2015, 06:44:38 PM
#65
ANNOUNCEMENT 9 - Pitchfork Countdown Could Begin Next Week

Those of you who attended today's Mumble Hangout with Bytemaster heard it there first.  This expectation shaping pre-announcement announcement is for the rest of you.

If all goes well next week and no unforeseen snags occur, 
we think we will be able to announce the start of our 30 day countdown to the BitShares 2.0 Pitchfork.


To make this date, we have prioritized our initial feature set to achieve the following key objectives:

  • Full tested functionality of all 2.0 features available at the Command Line Interface (CLI) level so no forks are needed before the next major release.
  • A quality web wallet we are proud to introduce to newcomers that provides at least all the existing features folks have been using already.
  • Wallet support for the new DPOS 2.0 witness based governance model.
  • Twice as fast as the current system (5 second blocks) with the ability to double the block rate a couple more times (to 1 second blocks) without hard forking to shift gears.  One full order of magnitude increase overall.
  • Implementing the referral system so the gold rush for new users can begin.
  • Full support for partner integration so they can proceed with their big plans.

These were judged the minimum requirements needed to jump start the anticipated growth boom.  Every other new feature can be brought online without interruption or forking to upgrade, so we felt that there was no reason to delay getting the above advantages into the hands of our partners and users.

Our team will make the final call next week, but we feel we are very close.  The exact 30-day countdown date will be posted in a follow up announcement at that time.  If you are a Partner or 3rd Party developer waiting to begin integration, this is your one week pre-notice to recall your integration teams from summer break in Kokomo and harness them up to their keyboards.

If all goes well, this means that:

  • We will have demonstrated the MVP and started the countdown while it is still "This Summer".
  • We will go live with BitShares 2.0 and our partners while it is still "Indian Summer".
  • We will be moving on The Next Big Things in time for  "Aussie Summer".

and, most importantly, when Marty and Doc get back to the future this fall, BitShares 2.0 will already be here waiting for them, with weeks to spare!


 
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2015, 06:53:19 AM
#64
After you have deceived investors how can you expect success. Maybe you can open another new thread or something like that, but the facts is that you are a liar. Your word means nothing.

 Investor or troll (new name for AGS buyer).

Your trolling skills are pathetic... you are a shame in all troll community!

What happend to the quality trolls we used to have in the BitShares threads?

Please go back to your troll cave and the pile of useless coins and don't come back until you graduate from the Great Troll Academy.

sr. member
Activity: 249
Merit: 250
September 04, 2015, 03:01:00 AM
#63
After you have deceived investors how can you expect success. Maybe you can open another new thread or something like that, but the facts is that you are a liar. Your word means nothing.

 Investor or troll (new name for AGS buyer).
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1000
September 03, 2015, 11:45:02 PM
#62

I am not speaking of violating principles.  If anyone here is purely using crypto in their daily lives, I both envy and applaud them.  I however am in what I believe to be the majority that use all sorts of state controlled forms of electronic payment when necessary. 

exactly. I just can't life on crypto. I need at the very least a bank account, a credit card and paypal. I'd love to get rid of them all Smiley
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
September 03, 2015, 08:38:21 PM
#61
Identabit is a step in the right direction from the centralized solutions we have available today.  It is an upgrade compared to credit cards or paypal.  If adoption takes off, I will most certainly use it. 

I wont be completely happy with it, but I will be happier with it than the current system.  We cannot allow our desire for complete and utter change to cloud our vision when steps in the right direction come about.

I am not speaking of violating principles.  If anyone here is purely using crypto in their daily lives, I both envy and applaud them.  I however am in what I believe to be the majority that use all sorts of state controlled forms of electronic payment when necessary. 
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 504
September 03, 2015, 06:16:55 PM
#60
So far there have been 54,838 operations published on the test network and I can reindex the blockchain in 50 seconds  (greater than 1000 operations per second) completely ignoring the fact that the test network has 100x as many maintenance blocks as it should.

In my profiling I see that 92% of the reindexing time is un perform_chain_maintenance which means that we are currently processing ~15K operations per second on average.  

Given that the vast majority of blocks are empty the time spent doing empty block processing is lowering the average TPS by a significant margin.

Great work for everyone who has helped publish over 50K transactions on this test network so far Smiley
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 502
September 03, 2015, 01:33:34 PM
#59
Here is the definitive scoop on Identabit.com - John Underwood does a 90 minute news conference.


Consider the depth of thinking this represents.  
And the raw horsepower John brings to the table.
Then consider your favorite meme coin and ask whether you want to play in the major leagues or not.  

Smiley




Finally some talented and educated people thinking more about "Apps" on a blockchain.  Users, especially ones on this forum, need to get over individual "chains" and start thinking about what apps or services can be built upon the blockchains.
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