Some people pointed out to me that the bitstamp fake voume was posted on reddit 3 weeks ago.
Thanks to user "BTCVIX" on reddit for their insight.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/3lwnyn/the_state_of_trading_in_the_bitcoin_markets/
Topic: Bitstamp the new OKCOIN 2.0 volume manipulators. Fake Wall observer. (Read 2689 times)
October 13, 2015, 06:01:14 PM
October 13, 2015, 05:09:41 PM
When an actual price change occurs bitstamp volume is tiny. But when nothing is happening suddenly people "trade" thousands of Bitcoins back and forth with no price movement whatsover.
What also happens is that whale traders want to increase their total generated volume for the month to get lower fees in return. This mostly happens when there isn't volume. That makes it easy for them to put up a large buy wall and dump in their own buy wall a second later to prevent others from buying up their coins.
You ought to take a look at what Bobby Lee CEO of BTCChina says about these kinds of things way back in early 2014 (hint: nothing has changed).
Bobby Lee on exchange volume deception:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M12zzwNkCo&t=12m35s
Thanks for the video. I found the part where he discussed phantom orders the most interesting. Back in the time in 2014 where I was doing altcoin trading these phantom orders where obviously visible on exchanges as bittrex and cryptsy. Till this day on Bitstamp, I haven't noticed these forms of manipulation. Or they manage to hide them so most people don't notice anything.
thanks for your comments.
October 13, 2015, 08:30:40 AM
When an actual price change occurs bitstamp volume is tiny. But when nothing is happening suddenly people "trade" thousands of Bitcoins back and forth with no price movement whatsover.
What also happens is that whale traders want to increase their total generated volume for the month to get lower fees in return. This mostly happens when there isn't volume. That makes it easy for them to put up a large buy wall and dump in their own buy wall a second later to prevent others from buying up their coins.
You ought to take a look at what Bobby Lee CEO of BTCChina says about these kinds of things way back in early 2014 (hint: nothing has changed).
Bobby Lee on exchange volume deception:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M12zzwNkCo&t=12m35s
Thanks for the video. I found the part where he discussed phantom orders the most interesting. Back in the time in 2014 where I was doing altcoin trading these phantom orders where obviously visible on exchanges as bittrex and cryptsy. Till this day on Bitstamp, I haven't noticed these forms of manipulation. Or they manage to hide them so most people don't notice anything.
October 13, 2015, 07:45:54 AM
When an actual price change occurs bitstamp volume is tiny. But when nothing is happening suddenly people "trade" thousands of Bitcoins back and forth with no price movement whatsover.
What also happens is that whale traders want to increase their total generated volume for the month to get lower fees in return. This mostly happens when there isn't volume. That makes it easy for them to put up a large buy wall and dump in their own buy wall a second later to prevent others from buying up their coins.
You ought to take a look at what Bobby Lee CEO of BTCChina says about these kinds of things way back in early 2014 (hint: nothing has changed).
Bobby Lee on exchange volume deception:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M12zzwNkCo&t=12m35s
October 13, 2015, 07:31:20 AM
When an actual price change occurs bitstamp volume is tiny. But when nothing is happening suddenly people "trade" thousands of Bitcoins back and forth with no price movement whatsover.
What also happens is that whale traders want to increase their total generated volume for the month to get lower fees in return. This mostly happens when there isn't volume. That makes it easy for them to put up a large buy wall and dump in their own buy wall a second later to prevent others from buying up their coins.
October 13, 2015, 07:25:52 AM
When an actual price change occurs bitstamp volume is tiny. But when nothing is happening suddenly people "trade" thousands of Bitcoins back and forth with no price movement whatsover.
Here are two pics comparing bitstamp to bitfinex during an actual price change. This again goes to show that there is no real liquidity on bitstamp and most of the trades occurring are "wash trades" (they use bots to trade with each other so people will think lots of traders use their site). If you actually want to make large purchases of bitcoins you better find yourself a different exchange.
Not to mention the trust issues that should occur to consumers who ought to think carefully before dealing with companies that engage in such deceptive practices.
Bitstamp:
Bitfinex:
Here are two pics comparing bitstamp to bitfinex during an actual price change. This again goes to show that there is no real liquidity on bitstamp and most of the trades occurring are "wash trades" (they use bots to trade with each other so people will think lots of traders use their site). If you actually want to make large purchases of bitcoins you better find yourself a different exchange.
Not to mention the trust issues that should occur to consumers who ought to think carefully before dealing with companies that engage in such deceptive practices.
Bitstamp:
Bitfinex:
October 13, 2015, 03:24:00 AM
I think there should no one not know chinese fake trading, since the end of 2013, this has been trumpeted. as for okicon, their ex-CTO courage to stand up to testify against this fake exchange.
October 12, 2015, 11:33:19 PM
sad just how far this the bitstamp exchange has fallen. Fake volume bot going ham.
The order books are razer thin yet "thousands of BTC get traded back and forth". Classic chinese exchange behavior.
What have we learnt?
That Slovenian exchanges are the new china.
As much as I hate regulation I no longer see any difference in the trustworthiness of BTC-e, Bitstamp and OKcoin. They all are way too dodgy. If you are storing your funds on any of these exchanges dont be surprised if you get goxed.
Time will tell if the USA exchanges dont follow in the ways of the old exchanges.
The order books are razer thin yet "thousands of BTC get traded back and forth". Classic chinese exchange behavior.
What have we learnt?
That Slovenian exchanges are the new china.
As much as I hate regulation I no longer see any difference in the trustworthiness of BTC-e, Bitstamp and OKcoin. They all are way too dodgy. If you are storing your funds on any of these exchanges dont be surprised if you get goxed.
Time will tell if the USA exchanges dont follow in the ways of the old exchanges.
October 12, 2015, 09:08:07 AM
Everyone with half a brain knows the whole btc economy is fake. The real volume is maybe a few hundred btc per day being traded globally.
Your post is contradictory therefore it is FUD. You say no-one knows the actual volume but then make up an arbitrary number out of thin air...
October 12, 2015, 08:19:48 AM
Everyone with half a brain knows the whole btc economy is fake. The real volume is maybe a few hundred btc per day being traded globally. If that's not failing I don't know what is.
Right on. And I personally am posting 37% of the content on here every day. I know for a fact another 41% is the work of a lonely supercomputer in NORAD. Most of the attendees and speakers at events are androids too.
October 12, 2015, 08:18:02 AM
Everyone with half a brain knows the whole btc economy is fake. The real volume is maybe a few hundred btc per day being traded globally. If that's not failing I don't know what is.
it will not falls because of the volume, it matter more if the buyers can't stand against the sellers pressure, and lower their asking price
the current little value is right for the current little volume there is
October 12, 2015, 08:14:48 AM
Everyone with half a brain knows the whole btc economy is fake. The real volume is maybe a few hundred btc per day being traded globally. If that's not failing I don't know what is.
"The real volume is maybe.... If that's not failing..."
OK, so you don't know what the real volume is, but you do know that if it is as low as you think it is, it's failing? It seems to me that the first thing you should be doing is dispensing with that "maybe" by finding out what the real volume really is. Other wise your post is nonsensical.
October 12, 2015, 07:53:48 AM
Everyone with half a brain knows the whole btc economy is fake. The real volume is maybe a few hundred btc per day being traded globally. If that's not failing I don't know what is.
October 12, 2015, 07:08:33 AM
Where's the evidence for your claims OP?
I have personally observed charts where bitstamp has the same kind of activity as okcoin, where there are massive amounts of BTC traded and no movement in the price whatsoever but also other users have noticed this fake wash trade activity and posted evidence. I posted this on the thread earlier but will repost for your convenience. Please read their full post but the link for bitstamp fake trading is: http://imgur.com/a/NKvwl
found this on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3o8onj/is_gemini_an_exchange_for_institutional_ants_24hr/cvvf9fa
"[–]BTCVIX 1 point 2 hours ago
I am in both agreement and disagreementat the same time with you & /u/realitycheck123456 so let me start with agreement side of things: there is clearly a pick-up in wash trading across Huobi, OKC, and Bitstamp -- yes even BitStamp although you seemed to gloss over that as it didn't fit neatly into your ethnocentric narrative of the Chinese boogeyman. Here is video of the OKC volumizer at work: https://twitter.com/BTCVIX/status/652179059263307776 -- here is Lock Ness monster style screen shots of OKC volumizer: http://imgur.com/a/GywMv -- now let me show you that Stamp is engaging in a similar volume washing although not to magnitude of the Chinese exchanges as Stamp does still have fees: http://imgur.com/a/NKvwl
All exchanges are somewhere on the bucket shop spectrum -- even trading on BATS is quasi-bucket shop so it is really a matter or being aware of what I agree is some form of volume washing spoofing but I am not so certain it actually has an intent other than to just inflate volume and appear more liquid then what some would deem as "reality" (more not this in a bit). It is very likely NOT the exchange but a very cozy MM that has some deal in place to provide X quota of volume or book depth per day in turn they get to feed off of the retail order flow probably not all that dissimilar then Flash Boys a la Michael Lewis.
I long ago stopped feigning outrage at these activities and have become a proponent of the "fake it till you make it" model of bootstrapping an exchange. Why do I say this ? Well it is a function of network effect as even the appearance of liquidity begets more liquidity so it becomes self-fulfilling. I actually would say this is a global trend in general as think of the social dating sites and their many socket puppet accounts to give the appearance of a deep pool of potential suitors. It ends up building upon itself and clearly it has offered some success -- I am not stating this as a perfect solution and it brings a whole host of other issues; however it does allow the business a fighting chance at the beginning because from my standpoint the only marketing angle I hear from the ghosttown exchanges is "our volume is REAL though" -- yes I am sure the 79 coins that traded on Gemini were "real" but I am very sure I could easily fill my positions in the 200k BTC of OKC wash trading even if only 5-10% of that was "real" whatever that means."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3o8onj/is_gemini_an_exchange_for_institutional_ants_24hr/cvvf9fa
"[–]BTCVIX 1 point 2 hours ago
I am in both agreement and disagreementat the same time with you & /u/realitycheck123456 so let me start with agreement side of things: there is clearly a pick-up in wash trading across Huobi, OKC, and Bitstamp -- yes even BitStamp although you seemed to gloss over that as it didn't fit neatly into your ethnocentric narrative of the Chinese boogeyman. Here is video of the OKC volumizer at work: https://twitter.com/BTCVIX/status/652179059263307776 -- here is Lock Ness monster style screen shots of OKC volumizer: http://imgur.com/a/GywMv -- now let me show you that Stamp is engaging in a similar volume washing although not to magnitude of the Chinese exchanges as Stamp does still have fees: http://imgur.com/a/NKvwl
All exchanges are somewhere on the bucket shop spectrum -- even trading on BATS is quasi-bucket shop so it is really a matter or being aware of what I agree is some form of volume washing spoofing but I am not so certain it actually has an intent other than to just inflate volume and appear more liquid then what some would deem as "reality" (more not this in a bit). It is very likely NOT the exchange but a very cozy MM that has some deal in place to provide X quota of volume or book depth per day in turn they get to feed off of the retail order flow probably not all that dissimilar then Flash Boys a la Michael Lewis.
I long ago stopped feigning outrage at these activities and have become a proponent of the "fake it till you make it" model of bootstrapping an exchange. Why do I say this ? Well it is a function of network effect as even the appearance of liquidity begets more liquidity so it becomes self-fulfilling. I actually would say this is a global trend in general as think of the social dating sites and their many socket puppet accounts to give the appearance of a deep pool of potential suitors. It ends up building upon itself and clearly it has offered some success -- I am not stating this as a perfect solution and it brings a whole host of other issues; however it does allow the business a fighting chance at the beginning because from my standpoint the only marketing angle I hear from the ghosttown exchanges is "our volume is REAL though" -- yes I am sure the 79 coins that traded on Gemini were "real" but I am very sure I could easily fill my positions in the 200k BTC of OKC wash trading even if only 5-10% of that was "real" whatever that means."
October 11, 2015, 03:48:47 PM
I was under the impression they've offered zero fees to certain traders. That being the case there's nothing to stop said traders beefing up volume in an attempt to attract some fresh meat to prey upon.
I don't believe traders would do this on their own. This is just a work for them and no gain. Maybe, if they get compensated by the actual exchange. But in this case it's easier for the exchange to beef up their volume by faking the trades than to pay someone to do it for them.
October 11, 2015, 11:05:42 AM
Well, now that the CTFC is involved, I imagine exchanges are not going to want to attract undue attention, but it is a double edged sword regarding their "popularity" and continued existence.
Pressure needs to be placed on the exchanges, even though exchanges are responsible for most of this, I can imagine non exchange bots are also involved.
And I have a feeling that pressure is on the way...
Its About Sharing
Pressure needs to be placed on the exchanges, even though exchanges are responsible for most of this, I can imagine non exchange bots are also involved.
And I have a feeling that pressure is on the way...
Its About Sharing
Can the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission do anything about exchanges outside the US? It wouldn't be easy for it to prosecute a Chinese exchange, and the Chinese government seems happy to let their exchanges continue wash trading. The US has no extradition treaties with China. It seemed powerless to prosecute Mark Karples and he was based in Japan which is far more US friendly.
Funny situation but I believe the US government has certain "rights" over US Citizens that are outside the U.S.
Not sure where this goes but I can only imagine with these trade agreements spreading everywhere that we will continually lose more and more rights as individuals.
October 11, 2015, 10:20:51 AM
I was under the impression they've offered zero fees to certain traders. That being the case there's nothing to stop said traders beefing up volume in an attempt to attract some fresh meat to prey upon.
October 11, 2015, 09:13:48 AM
Well, now that the CTFC is involved, I imagine exchanges are not going to want to attract undue attention, but it is a double edged sword regarding their "popularity" and continued existence.
Pressure needs to be placed on the exchanges, even though exchanges are responsible for most of this, I can imagine non exchange bots are also involved.
And I have a feeling that pressure is on the way...
Its About Sharing
Pressure needs to be placed on the exchanges, even though exchanges are responsible for most of this, I can imagine non exchange bots are also involved.
And I have a feeling that pressure is on the way...
Its About Sharing
Can the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission do anything about exchanges outside the US? It wouldn't be easy for it to prosecute a Chinese exchange, and the Chinese government seems happy to let their exchanges continue wash trading. The US has no extradition treaties with China. It seemed powerless to prosecute Mark Karples and he was based in Japan which is far more US friendly.
October 11, 2015, 06:43:26 AM
Well, now that the CTFC is involved, I imagine exchanges are not going to want to attract undue attention, but it is a double edged sword regarding their "popularity" and continued existence.
Pressure needs to be placed on the exchanges, even though exchanges are responsible for most of this, I can imagine non exchange bots are also involved.
And I have a feeling that pressure is on the way...
Its About Sharing
Pressure needs to be placed on the exchanges, even though exchanges are responsible for most of this, I can imagine non exchange bots are also involved.
And I have a feeling that pressure is on the way...
Its About Sharing
October 11, 2015, 03:05:10 AM
Nearly all Bitcoin exchanges have been guilty of faking volume. Especially in these lower volume days they are doing their work to keep the volumes at least above a certain amount. Can you name 1 exchange that doesn't do this?
I dont know.Doesnt seem like gemini has just yet. lol... under 100btc traded or something haha.
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