Black Rock Influence | Bitcointalksearch.org

bettercrypto

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on February 02, 2024, 05:17:38 PM

I have always been pro bitcoin ETF, from many years back where the discussion came from. I do believe BlackRock is the largest fund company on the planet. Think about this...so many clients ask their advisors for bitcoin, but when they couldn't make money off of it (like with physical precious metals) they would steer them away. Now that they can (like precious metal ETFS) they will begin to start being okay with their clients owning some. Its a game changer.

Blackrock is just one of the whale institutional investors who are seeing if Bitcoin is actually accumulating at the moment, and they are not wasting any opportunity to accumulate it right now, to be honest. Even in other companies that have also been approved by the SEC recently.

Even if we say that the price value of Bitcoin is in a declining period, I can still say that the demand for Bitcoin is still high, so that is no longer surprising for Blackrock, honestly speaking.

famososMuertos

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Influence is determined by its ability to announce movements and then has an impact on the market, and "black rock" has not reached that point.

The reality is that bitcoin is another asset that is among its diverse portfolio, it is a shame that it is believed that this influence should exist because it is Back Rock.

macson

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Quote from: promise444c5 on February 02, 2024, 12:25:59 PM

From my research I found out a stat might not be accurate all corrections are welcomed

Black Rock currently own 70,000BTC worth of Bitcoins

70,000 Btcs worths: 70,000 * $43,000(at average) =$2.9B+
as theworld largest asset manager

With this kind of worth could they massively influence the BTC market??
Probably any time they want..

Edit : stats

to be able to have an influence on the Bitcoin market requires a larger amount of holding than that, as far as I know what Binance and several other exchanges hold is much larger than what Blackrock holds. So when you say that Blackrock can influence Bitcoin, that's quite wrong. and also the bitcoin they hold is needed by them to be able to support their bitcoin etf, not their company's holdings, so they cannot use it as they wish for their needs.

Julien_Olynpic

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Blackrock is only the largest client asset management company. Apparently, they now have their own bitcoins on the company’s balance sheet, and not just client ones. Blackrock is often accused of being the biggest global market manipulator. However, if we look at their global strategies, they largely revolve around index investing. If customers around the world became interested in Bitcoin, then Blackrock became interested in Bitcoin. In other words, Blackrock follows the wishes and interests of its clients. This is a normal and logical practice. It would be strange if they didn't do this. By the way, other companies managing client assets do the same.

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Quote from: adaseb on February 03, 2024, 01:08:25 AM

These bitcoins that they hold in the fund are not theirs. You can go to your online brokerage, buy 1 BTC worth thru IBIT with your money and they will hold it for you. They cannot just sell it without your permission. Doesn’t work that way.

these bitcoin THEY HOLD are not YOURS when you are a end-investor of a broker
(not your key not your coin)

lets take this hierarchy

coinbase (custodian)
blackrock (etf trust)
robinhood (AP/agent/broker)
you (robinhood customer buying blackrock shares)

you as a share purchaser(end-user investor of an AP (robinhood)) become contracted to a share of a trusts collateral. where YOUR shares are held within robinhood assigned to you, which you cannot just ask for your one share to be converted to bitcoin. you have no claims on any btc
your share just represents a unit thats pegged to bitcoins PRICE, not ownership
you do not even get voting rights to tell blackrock to dissolve the shares and unlock btc

brokers(AP) (EG robinhood)
part of the basket share contract that robinhood(AP) have with blackrock, is where robinhood need to buy-back enough shares from its end users/have unsold shares to reach a "basket" amount of unassigned shares, to then have a voting right over that basket of shares to ask/get permission from blackrock to dissolve the shares and where blackrock(ETF) requests to coinbase(the custodian) to unlock the coins out of the ETF ownership. where the custodian then sells the coin to market to then give blackrock fiat who then give fiat to robinhood

adaseb

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These bitcoins that they hold in the fund are not theirs. You can go to your online brokerage, buy 1 BTC worth thru IBIT with your money and they will hold it for you. They cannot just sell it without your permission. Doesn’t work that way.

Perhaps there might be some hedge fund or large trader who decides to short IBIT by borrowing from others by margin and they can market sell those and cause a price decline but this is nothing new really. This was possible with the Bitcoin futures for the past few years already.

hd49728

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on February 02, 2024, 05:17:38 PM

I have always been pro bitcoin ETF, from many years back where the discussion came from. I do believe BlackRock is the largest fund company on the planet. Think about this...so many clients ask their advisors for bitcoin, but when they couldn't make money off of it (like with physical precious metals) they would steer them away. Now that they can (like precious metal ETFS) they will begin to start being okay with their clients owning some. Its a game changer.

They spent their resources to fight against SEC. after seeing some positive signals from Grayscale's lawsuit against SEC. They actually did their due diligent research about Bitcoin and its potential to help them gaining more income for their company.

Now, they succeeded with their Bitcoin Spot ETF application and are going to be a biggest Bitcoin institutional investor. With their accumulation rate, they will surpass MicroStrategy in coming months. If we see how MicroStrategy gained profit with their DCA investment in Bitcoin, for their portfolio in Bitcoin and their stock MSTR ^[1], we will see how BlackRock will get profit from their Bitcoin Spot ETF product.

They will even submit for more derivatives after Bitcoin Spot ETF.

[1] https://saylortracker.com/

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Quote from: uneng on February 02, 2024, 05:14:26 PM

Quote from: nelson4lov on February 02, 2024, 04:06:25 PM

Quote from: uneng on February 02, 2024, 01:06:49 PM

They can manipulate the market through massive Bitcoin sales, just like GrayScale did recently.
~Snipped

That sell-off a few days ago was more about Grayscale customers selling their GBTC in order to use other ETF partners. Grayscale was charging a whopping 1.5% fee for manage assets for customers whereas BlackRock and others charged around 0.25% or less. So it was only ideal that some users sell and put those funds back in other ETFs.

The only concern about a case like this would be a firm that acquires Bitcoin for itself rather than a customer base. That's when it should be a matter of concern.

Hmm, I didn't know about it. It makes sense customers would prefer a middleman service which charge them lower comission fees. At same time, I can't ignore the fact there was a massive flow of Bitcoin dropped in the market for sale by GrayScale in a very short timeframe, what makes me wonder if their customers would be really able to act all together at once to generate such huge negative effect on market's prices. I think it's hard to believe a coordinate movement like that could be done only by independent customers moving from one asset management company to another.

I fear heavy centralization in general is bad in every cases, even when it's a company managing the funds of a wide customer base. After all, it's the company behind the funds which is getting more and more powerful each new day... And too much power concentrated in few hands it's never good.

You make a good argument but a product like an ETF would be heavily regulated especially for an asset like Bitcoin that raises a lot of eyebrows for government. It might be the case ETF issuers won't be able to user customer funds to heavily influence the market in their favor. Their primary revenue for such service would be from their fee. Still, the possibility is there even if the chance of happening is slim.

Also, the reason why those sell-offs affected the market was because customers were not able to sell GBTC for a long time but finally got the opportunity to sell when Bitcoin ETFs were approved. I don't think such big events would happen anytime soon.

ChiBitCTy

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I have always been pro bitcoin ETF, from many years back where the discussion came from. I do believe BlackRock is the largest fund company on the planet. Think about this...so many clients ask their advisors for bitcoin, but when they couldn't make money off of it (like with physical precious metals) they would steer them away. Now that they can (like precious metal ETFS) they will begin to start being okay with their clients owning some. Its a game changer.

uneng

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Quote from: nelson4lov on February 02, 2024, 04:06:25 PM

Quote from: uneng on February 02, 2024, 01:06:49 PM

They can manipulate the market through massive Bitcoin sales, just like GrayScale did recently.
~Snipped

That sell-off a few days ago was more about Grayscale customers selling their GBTC in order to use other ETF partners. Grayscale was charging a whopping 1.5% fee for manage assets for customers whereas BlackRock and others charged around 0.25% or less. So it was only ideal that some users sell and put those funds back in other ETFs.

The only concern about a case like this would be a firm that acquires Bitcoin for itself rather than a customer base. That's when it should be a matter of concern.

Hmm, I didn't know about it. It makes sense customers would prefer a middleman service which charge them lower comission fees. At same time, I can't ignore the fact there was a massive flow of Bitcoin dropped in the market for sale by GrayScale in a very short timeframe, what makes me wonder if their customers would be really able to act all together at once to generate such huge negative effect on market's prices. I think it's hard to believe a coordinate movement like that could be done only by independent customers moving from one asset management company to another.

I fear heavy centralization in general is bad in every cases, even when it's a company managing the funds of a wide customer base. After all, it's the company behind the funds which is getting more and more powerful each new day... And too much power concentrated in few hands it's never good.

Quote from: darkangel11 on February 02, 2024, 04:52:50 PM

I don't know how they benefited but I can think of ways they could, for instance by telling a few trusted individuals to place levered short positions on Bitcoin, since the market obviously did not expect they'd sell so much Bitcoin in 1 week.

The market is unpredictable for most of us, but imagine if you could know exactly when BTC is going to dump and pump, in order to buy or sell your coins. There lies the benefits of being close to the whales of crypto market and knowing their next movements beforehand.

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Quote from: stompix on February 02, 2024, 03:36:49 PM

How did Grayscale manipulate the market?
Genuinely curios, how did they did and why and how did they benefit from it ! Grin

I always hear stories about manipulation but when I ask about motive and reward in it becomes all foggy!

Just to be clear here, I'm not screaming manipulation, but I'm genuinely curious if you have your own theory for this.

AFAIK all other managers bought their bitcoin OTC, so that they wouldn't influence the market. Why not GBTC?
This actually proves that BlackRock and others (excluding GBTC) did not want to manipulate prices and were genuinely worried about low liquidity on bitcoin exchanges. They knew if they started buying it would pump the price, but GBTC did not care and decided to dump everything to Coinbase.
I don't know how they benefited but I can think of ways they could, for instance by telling a few trusted individuals to place levered short positions on Bitcoin, since the market obviously did not expect they'd sell so much Bitcoin in 1 week.

franky1

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Quote from: promise444c5 on February 02, 2024, 12:25:59 PM

From my research I found out a stat might not be accurate all corrections are welcomed
Black Rock currently own 11,439 BTC worth of Bitcoins

https://www.blackrock.com/us/individual/products/333011/?referrer=tickerSearch#holdings
70,005.56btc

nelson4lov

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Quote from: uneng on February 02, 2024, 01:06:49 PM

They can manipulate the market through massive Bitcoin sales, just like GrayScale did recently.
~Snipped

That sell-off a few days ago was more about Grayscale customers selling their GBTC in order to use other ETF partners. Grayscale was charging a whopping 1.5% fee for manage assets for customers whereas BlackRock and others charged around 0.25% or less. So it was only ideal that some users sell and put those funds back in other ETFs.

The only concern about a case like this would be a firm that acquires Bitcoin for itself rather than a customer base. That's when it should be a matter of concern.

MusaMohamed

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Quote from: promise444c5 on February 02, 2024, 12:25:59 PM

70,000 Btcs worths: 70,000 * $43,000(at average) =$2.9B+
as theworld largest asset manager

Total assets managed by BlackRock is much bigger than what they have in their Bitcoin Spot ETF. They did not become a world largest asset manager because of their Bitcoin Spot ETF which is only small part of their asset management portfolio.

Quote

With this kind of worth could they massively influence the BTC market??
Probably any time they want..

There are many institutional investors, not only Black Rock. We have Elon Musk (Tesla, SpaceX), Michael Saylor (MicroStrategy), Cathie Wood (ARK Invest) and more. They are market makers but don't think Black Rock can manipulate the market by themselves. There are many institutional investors and they sometimes will have different plans.

We as small investors, can just focus on our investment strategies, DCA, holding and manage our finance well and as most healthiest as possible. If you only hold your bitcoin, whales include BlackRock can not manipulate you.

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Quote from: Bitco55 on February 02, 2024, 12:53:37 PM

According to my research, they own over 118.585 Billion dollars.

That's the assets BlackRock owns!
Completely different for assets under management where Bitcoin come into place also!

Quote from: uneng on February 02, 2024, 01:06:49 PM

They can manipulate the market through massive Bitcoin sales, just like GrayScale did recently.

How did Grayscale manipulate the market?
Genuinely curios, how did they did and why and how did they benefit from it ! Grin

I always hear stories about manipulation but when I ask about motive and reward in it becomes all foggy!

PrivacyG

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Quote from: promise444c5 on February 02, 2024, 12:25:59 PM

With this kind of worth could they massively influence the BTC market??
Probably any time they want..

Suppose all that amount of Bitcoin is under the control of Black Rock and there is a possibility it could turn to a giant sell off.

They can not do this forever and you can not keep fearing such an event. There WILL be days when people like Saylor will have to sell. Out of manipulation or not, it will happen one day. Truth is that the Rich will one day own most of the circulating Bitcoins and truth is that some of them will want to hurt Bitcoin. Any time. Accept the fact and move on, there is nothing we can really do about it.

snowpega

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dear, I do not know what is going on as we know Bitcoin ETF has been approved and due to this, there has been no big movement we noticed after the approval of Bitcoin. on the other hand, BlackRock is buying aggressively from different prices and accumulating more and more but I don't know why there is no big movement in the market even big buying on the way. I also read this news Blackrock has accumulated 3 billion worth of Bitcoin.

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Quote from: promise444c5 on February 02, 2024, 12:25:59 PM

From my research I found out a stat might not be accurate all corrections are welcomed

Black Rock currently own 11,439 BTC worth of Bitcoins

70,000 Btcs worths: 70,000 * $43,000(at average) =$2.9B+
as theworld largest asset manager

With this kind of worth could they massively influence the BTC market??
Probably any time they want..

Edit : stats

Did I hear you say own all of that? No, Blackrock might hold tiny piece of that but I'm not sure if Blackrock owns these Bitcoin, they are just like centralized exchanges that hold people Bitcoin where they allowed you trade numbers and when it's time to withdraw, they sent you real Bitcoin to a destination wallet.

Blackrock is similar in the sense that in every Bitcoin ETF investors buy from them, they have equivalent Bitcoin as reserve and this is the reserve that has been updated everyday, for every Bitcoin ETF sold, there is an equivalent Bitcoin that is peg to them.

Influence, I'm not sure about that for now. The ETF approval has been done and Bitcoin has reacted from their price already and it's making Bitcoin centralized even more moving away from the central purpose but adoption, they are making Bitcoin name to go places.

Tipstar

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Black Rock and Vanguard has been discussed a lot. It's said they control more than 50% of the world money but in reality, they are just fund manager that manages the users fund according to their choice for a small commission. They just make it easier for it's users to buy and sell. Black Rock had been the leading force in listing Bitcoin and ETH ETF as it were demanded by the users. The group may have a number of bitcoins but most of those in stat are users money and the Black Rock group itself have no full authority over it.

uneng

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They can manipulate the market through massive Bitcoin sales, just like GrayScale did recently. But we expect they to have this heavy influence only on short run, because once they manipulate the market once, they are going to lose the resources to do it again in the future, unless they purchase the coins again when the price hits the bottom.

That is why average independent investors should take advantage of such manipulative events to buy Bitcoin cheaper and take the coins from the hands of the whales of this industry, so their power decreases as Bitcoin becomes splitted among more different investors' hands, decreasing the potential of future manipulations happening in crypto market, at least in big proportion.

About Black Rock, only now people are starting to talk about it more frequently. They not only own huge sums of BTC, but also large positions in titan global companies like Google, NVIDIA, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and Disney.

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