Blackjack card counting at live table games?

magneto

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Quote from: Baofeng on December 01, 2020, 04:19:44 PM

To counter this, online casinos are employing a continue's shuffle machine making card counting not usable in online black jack. We also have this kind of topic here, Card Counting in Blackjack.

This is not true. Most live dealer games still have manual shuffles although there are certain games like infinite blackjack (I believe) that do employ continuous shuffle. So events should still be dependent on each other - it's just that it may not be feasible practically.

Quote from: Kelvinid on December 02, 2020, 05:25:54 AM

I can't imagine if that really works, if they are going to push that way, I would say that it won't last long, and surely it will be caught sooner.

It is a kind of cheating. If someone knows that thing and proven true, not only it makes gamblers stay away from that site but it also ruins their reputation. I'm not sure if that is tolerable and I'm not sure if the owners will do that stupid thing just to make more money and fulfill their greediness.

Advantage play is not cheating, although if it's against the ToS of certain casinos they can always kick you off their platform.

Quote from: johhnyUA on December 04, 2020, 05:47:12 PM

Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

You don't need a program. There was interesting strategy (i doubt that this will work now tho) from mathematician Edward Thorp with which he won to many times in BJ against casino.
As i remember it called "Counting 10s". You counting ratio between 10s (10, Jack, Queen, King) and all other cards, and if it bigger than 2.25-2.5 then you should increase your bet and continue (EV will be positive). And if it less you should fold.

You can try it, anyway and write here is it good or not

You can obviously count manually via hi-lo, zen, whatever, but the point of the thread was to discuss whether or not an algorithm can be created feasibly to reap any potential advantage. But no productive discourse was produced - so I'll lock the thread Undecided

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Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

You don't need a program. There was interesting strategy (i doubt that this will work now tho) from mathematician Edward Thorp with which he won to many times in BJ against casino.
As i remember it called "Counting 10s". You counting ratio between 10s (10, Jack, Queen, King) and all other cards, and if it bigger than 2.25-2.5 then you should increase your bet and continue (EV will be positive). And if it less you should fold.

You can try it, anyway and write here is it good or not

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Quote from: YuginKadoya on December 04, 2020, 02:22:45 AM

Quote from: ReiMomo on December 04, 2020, 01:35:45 AM

Quote from: Lanatsa on December 03, 2020, 05:59:34 PM

~snip~
Also, not all would really be having that kind of photographic memory on telling which cards had already shown or been pulled out.

Because every suspicious movements or activity that players do, it will definitely be addressed by the casino right away to ensure a fair game not only to the rest of the players but also for their profit besides gamblers are always after the provably fair which could also bring negative impact to the casino if they failed to provide appropriate action in any suspicious card counting activity.

For a reason, I can't say that this card counting strategy has already been abrogated absolutely even casinos are aware that some players are skilled to do so and they are already equipped to avoid it but until today the card counting exist and that is exactly why some gamblers are willing to know or learn how to do it because it can still be done in an unnoticeable manner.

Well, there are some hustler players of Blackjack that it is their life to really play in blackjack casino's and I think there are basic strategies that they are doing in playing blackjack strategies that don't guarantee that your going to win but will just give you the best chance. but every strategy like these is worth the try and can surely make a significant in playing blackjack but it will always fall to luck.

Here's some nice video about some comparison of card counting in Blackjack in both online and physical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTNrSG6EJnY

I agree into the point that some would really be trying this because it cant really be directly be noticeable for someone who do tend to do some card counting.

Agree into those saying that this will really require some good memory for it to be done well.

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Quote from: ReiMomo on December 04, 2020, 01:35:45 AM

Quote from: Lanatsa on December 03, 2020, 05:59:34 PM

~snip~
Also, not all would really be having that kind of photographic memory on telling which cards had already shown or been pulled out.

Because every suspicious movements or activity that players do, it will definitely be addressed by the casino right away to ensure a fair game not only to the rest of the players but also for their profit besides gamblers are always after the provably fair which could also bring negative impact to the casino if they failed to provide appropriate action in any suspicious card counting activity.

For a reason, I can't say that this card counting strategy has already been abrogated absolutely even casinos are aware that some players are skilled to do so and they are already equipped to avoid it but until today the card counting exist and that is exactly why some gamblers are willing to know or learn how to do it because it can still be done in an unnoticeable manner.

Well, there are some hustler players of Blackjack that it is their life to really play in blackjack casino's and I think there are basic strategies that they are doing in playing blackjack strategies that don't guarantee that your going to win but will just give you the best chance. but every strategy like these is worth the try and can surely make a significant in playing blackjack but it will always fall to luck.

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Quote from: Lanatsa on December 03, 2020, 05:59:34 PM

~snip~
Also, not all would really be having that kind of photographic memory on telling which cards had already shown or been pulled out.

Because every suspicious movements or activity that players do, it will definitely be addressed by the casino right away to ensure a fair game not only to the rest of the players but also for their profit besides gamblers are always after the provably fair which could also bring negative impact to the casino if they failed to provide appropriate action in any suspicious card counting activity.

For a reason, I can't say that this card counting strategy has already been abrogated absolutely even casinos are aware that some players are skilled to do so and they are already equipped to avoid it but until today the card counting exist and that is exactly why some gamblers are willing to know or learn how to do it because it can still be done in an unnoticeable manner.

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Quote from: MCobian on December 03, 2020, 03:49:11 PM

In my opinion, it is very difficult to do a card counting strategy for blackjack games at a physical casino, because there is CCTV
that always monitors the player's win at the casino. So if a player is found who has managed to win in a row it will end up prohibiting
playing at the casino. Therefore, many casino have enormous advantages, because indeed they will never allow players to win in
the long run.

When you do have that winning streak on a blackjack then that will really trigger out some suspicions that you might be card counting.

It is possible to do card counting in physical places but make sure that you wont really get caught or making yourself obvious.

Also, not all would really be having that kind of photographic memory on telling which cards had already shown or been pulled out.

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Quote from: MCobian on December 03, 2020, 03:49:11 PM

In my opinion, it is very difficult to do a card counting strategy for blackjack games at a physical casino, because there is CCTV
that always monitors the player's win at the casino. So if a player is found who has managed to win in a row it will end up prohibiting
playing at the casino. Therefore, many casino have enormous advantages, because indeed they will never allow players to win in
the long run.

I don't know if that applicable to all casino but I think this card counting is possible to happen before but I don't now if this one exist today since I never heard any of it on some certain casinos, even in blackjack site itself but I think let's forget about this if we don't know how to do it since maybe this discussion has been spread today for marketing purposes on blackjack sites or physical casinos here and in offline.

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Quote from: Twentyonepaylots on December 03, 2020, 03:44:18 PM

To let pwople know that you have this sort of trick you can use to earn tons of money on a huge forum like this would be counter-intuitive. You wanna let as little people as possible to know that you have a trick up your sleeve especially something as big as this. So there wouldn't be any point in asking people out here about that.

Quote from: STT on December 03, 2020, 03:32:42 PM

Statistically you aren't going to be gaining any usable advantage to put into use in your plays, so its not worth the effort and the risk of loss or being excluded from games. I really doubt anyone is doing this when online sites do have bugs that are sometimes exploited and I'd guess that's where the bulk of effort goes into trying to leverage an advantage.
Its not really worth me saying especially but I noticed I couldn't really lose when playing a certain game, it wasnt there was no losses but the amount of times I was winning my money and with a long streak of wins seemed abnormal to me. Could just be I was kidding myself, I thought the game might have bias that benefitted me not that I ever did anything just I played it the way that seemed to produce a win. I've heard lots of times of mistakes in code for some reason that left open repeated winnings being possible, I think quite a few sites have a bug report reward for this reason.

And as far as I know these live table games have their own set up foolproof tools that will allow them to find out who's doing something fishy or not, lest they risk big losses from people doing this because it's online. Also, you wouldn't get good information from a good shuffler, so good luck spending thousands of dollars on a program that will only give you tentative guesses.

Yeah, you're right there are strategies in place like the ones you described to prevent unlawful behaviour. This is to be expected from a live table game anyway, people can be tempted to cheat but these strategies prevent them from doing so. As for inside info from the shuffler, well I guess everybody has a price and it depends if they really want to get involved with conspiring against the casino and potentially get fired in the process.

That's overall cheating is difficult on live tables but not impossible if prepared to go to extreme lengths.

MCobian

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In my opinion, it is very difficult to do a card counting strategy for blackjack games at a physical casino, because there is CCTV
that always monitors the player's win at the casino. So if a player is found who has managed to win in a row it will end up prohibiting
playing at the casino. Therefore, many casino have enormous advantages, because indeed they will never allow players to win in
the long run.

Twentyonepaylots

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To let pwople know that you have this sort of trick you can use to earn tons of money on a huge forum like this would be counter-intuitive. You wanna let as little people as possible to know that you have a trick up your sleeve especially something as big as this. So there wouldn't be any point in asking people out here about that.

Quote from: STT on December 03, 2020, 03:32:42 PM

Statistically you aren't going to be gaining any usable advantage to put into use in your plays, so its not worth the effort and the risk of loss or being excluded from games. I really doubt anyone is doing this when online sites do have bugs that are sometimes exploited and I'd guess that's where the bulk of effort goes into trying to leverage an advantage.
Its not really worth me saying especially but I noticed I couldn't really lose when playing a certain game, it wasnt there was no losses but the amount of times I was winning my money and with a long streak of wins seemed abnormal to me. Could just be I was kidding myself, I thought the game might have bias that benefitted me not that I ever did anything just I played it the way that seemed to produce a win. I've heard lots of times of mistakes in code for some reason that left open repeated winnings being possible, I think quite a few sites have a bug report reward for this reason.

And as far as I know these live table games have their own set up foolproof tools that will allow them to find out who's doing something fishy or not, lest they risk big losses from people doing this because it's online. Also, you wouldn't get good information from a good shuffler, so good luck spending thousands of dollars on a program that will only give you tentative guesses.

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Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

Whilst I understand that they generally use a crapload of decks (8 for most games, I think) and have insanely bad deck penetration, isn't it theoretically feasible to still take advantage of certain variations in the count if you monitored enough tables with an automated program?

Surely Evolution has some sort of safeguard against this that I'm missing? Huh

Haha, I work in evolution gaming on high position. Well, a lot of people had a question similar to your on this forum, so I don't plan to talk everything in more details, it's not even necessary. First of all, what I would say is that everything happens the way as you look it, i.e. 100% clean.
Shufflers shuffle the cards in live. When they have new shufflers, it happens that these shufflers shuffle cards with very low shuffle quality, i.e. cards are repeated, you'll notice the novice shuffler, they shuffle for eight minutes. Also, these new shuffles sometimes put the cutting card very backwards, similarly of baccarat. You should use such moments if you want to succeed in card counting when it comes to live casinos.

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Statistically you aren't going to be gaining any usable advantage to put into use in your plays, so its not worth the effort and the risk of loss or being excluded from games. I really doubt anyone is doing this when online sites do have bugs that are sometimes exploited and I'd guess that's where the bulk of effort goes into trying to leverage an advantage.
Its not really worth me saying especially but I noticed I couldn't really lose when playing a certain game, it wasnt there was no losses but the amount of times I was winning my money and with a long streak of wins seemed abnormal to me. Could just be I was kidding myself, I thought the game might have bias that benefitted me not that I ever did anything just I played it the way that seemed to produce a win. I've heard lots of times of mistakes in code for some reason that left open repeated winnings being possible, I think quite a few sites have a bug report reward for this reason.

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If card counting is hard on physical casinos already, what more on an online one, with 8 decks? While you may, in theory, be able to keep track on a few shuffles and whatnot, ultimately you will lose count and your prediction will be wrong. Evolution is designed in such a way that the usual card counting tactics would be useless and the person doing it will just end up giving away their money. Even if it’s ‘live’ you can’t really do much counting in there as most of the shuffles are kinda tricky to follow suit, due to it just being aired on a live video feed.

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Quote from: Fredomago on December 03, 2020, 11:45:34 AM

And maybe the very reason if ever someone who already exploit this strategy will never share it to anyone. Knowing that house
can easily change the system up and adjust for their benefits. It's tough and maybe the possibilities is really slim,

but knowing how gamblers behaves, they are always finding ways to grab any opportunities that might open for them.

Risk always at the side of the gamblers but once you got that particular chance, risk was worthy enough to take it.

Card counting has been around for a long time, there are books about it from the 80s teaching the skills to newcomers. The mathematical aspect of it is quite interesting and can be easily learned, but applying such a technique is quite hard in a real life setting.

It would be a cool if someone living close to a casino with a some spare time could make a field study here on the forum. Just trying out the strategy for 4 weeks and share his results with us. But you are right, if it actually works he wouldn't like post his strategy.

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Quote from: Mauser on December 03, 2020, 10:59:25 AM

Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

Whilst I understand that they generally use a crapload of decks (8 for most games, I think) and have insanely bad deck penetration, isn't it theoretically feasible to still take advantage of certain variations in the count if you monitored enough tables with an automated program?

Surely Evolution has some sort of safeguard against this that I'm missing? Huh

The effectiveness of counting cards has deminished greatly over the last years. Casinos are well aware of the strategy and are fighting it. Using 8 decks is pretty normal for BlackJack, but the biggest drawback for counting cards are the new shuffle machines. There might still some chances for us gambler to exploit it at the moment. But once the casinos identify such automated behaviour they will likely refine their security systems.

And maybe the very reason if ever someone who already exploit this strategy will never share it to anyone. Knowing that house
can easily change the system up and adjust for their benefits. It's tough and maybe the possibilities is really slim,

but knowing how gamblers behaves, they are always finding ways to grab any opportunities that might open for them.

Risk always at the side of the gamblers but once you got that particular chance, risk was worthy enough to take it.

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Quote from: Mauser on December 03, 2020, 10:59:25 AM

The effectiveness of counting cards has deminished greatly over the last years. Casinos are well aware of the strategy and are fighting it. Using 8 decks is pretty normal for BlackJack, but the biggest drawback for counting cards are the new shuffle machines. There might still some chances for us gambler to exploit it at the moment. But once the casinos identify such automated behaviour they will likely refine their security systems.

Gambling casinos has the money, the means and the people who can make their platform profitable and free from cheats, even if we are good and we are lucky the house always find a way to beat you, that's a fact that we need to accept, you cannot make money out of gambling casinos always but they can make money out of gamblers always.

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Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

Whilst I understand that they generally use a crapload of decks (8 for most games, I think) and have insanely bad deck penetration, isn't it theoretically feasible to still take advantage of certain variations in the count if you monitored enough tables with an automated program?

Surely Evolution has some sort of safeguard against this that I'm missing? Huh

The effectiveness of counting cards has deminished greatly over the last years. Casinos are well aware of the strategy and are fighting it. Using 8 decks is pretty normal for BlackJack, but the biggest drawback for counting cards are the new shuffle machines. There might still some chances for us gambler to exploit it at the moment. But once the casinos identify such automated behaviour they will likely refine their security systems.

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Quote from: rhomelmabini on December 03, 2020, 03:49:13 AM

Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

Surely a wise burglar regarding this will never ever show or even leave a footprint unless he mess up. By the way, I think everyone should read this https://www.livecasinocomparer.com/news/5-reasons-why-card-counting-on-live-dealer-blackjack-wont-work/

I think Gaming Operators know this beforehand before they even make it to the public and they'll just paying burglars if this isn't take seriously or should I say securely.

This article obviously discouraged people from doing card counting because it exposes card counting as a trick that you cannot win against a casino, the casinos knows better they are gambler themselves and they explore everything that a gambler will do just to win and they have a counter for this, so no use exploring means to cheat or do card counting.

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Quote from: magneto on December 01, 2020, 03:00:19 PM

Has anyone tried to come up with a program that counts cards at Evolution or other live gaming providers' tables?

Surely a wise burglar regarding this will never ever show or even leave a footprint unless he mess up. By the way, I think everyone should read this https://www.livecasinocomparer.com/news/5-reasons-why-card-counting-on-live-dealer-blackjack-wont-work/

I think Gaming Operators know this beforehand before they even make it to the public and they'll just paying burglars if this isn't take seriously or should I say securely.

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It is not possible even if someone set up some automated tool to count the cards because in online game providers most games are handled by a predefined algorithm which is programmed to safeguard the casino from well known tricks like card counting.Also we don’t really know for sure how many decks they are using even if they say they use eight as this is exclusive to them and not us that is why I don’t like blackjack at all.

Topic: Blackjack card counting at live table games? (Read 281 times)