Topic: [Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges - page 3. (Read 2773 times)

Trivial. And trivial of course to link every such machine to a centralized database of taint. But they dont do that, and people should ask themselves why, when we know that hard cash is the preferred method of transaction for criminals, money launderers, terrorists, and all the people they say they want to protect us against. So why not apply taint to cash like they want to do with bitcoin? Because just like mass surveillance, it has never been about preventing crime and there is absolutely no evidence that it does anything whatsoever to prevent crime. It is about population control. That's it. In the same way the knowledge that you are constantly being watched makes you compliant and obedient, knowledge that your coins will be tainted makes you compliant and unwilling to do anything your government doesn't approve of.

They don't need to do this with cash, because the vast majority of people use digital fiat now, with the banks enforcing the rules of the government and performing mass surveillance for them. Look at the Canadian truckers as a prime example of this happening in a western nation. Spend your money in a way the government don't like? Uh oh, now all your accounts have been seized.

While I do know of such cases, there are other easy questions you can ask that in most people spark a 'Yes! I've experienced that and it was super annoying [or something worse than annoying].'

That's the one thing I've got to hold against the 'The only solution is to make it cryptographically impossible to link UTXOs and deduce their history' argument that nullius brought up lately. That it 'works' (mostly) with cash, too, even though taint could be proclaimed, enforced and normalized. Heck, how hard can it be to build and code a paper money serial number scanner?

I would really appreciate if you could avoid double-posting, resize images and write more compact.
And of course, stay on topic.. Straying away a bit is kind of normal on this forum, but I'd prefer to keep talking about taint and exchanges in here.

Nobody said cash is totally anonymous, but I can still trade or buy almost anything with cash without leaving any electronical trace of that transaction.

It's to expensive to print more paper with tracking chips inside when they are already working on CBDC in 90% of countries around the world.
They probably have on or two reserve options in case CBDC plan doesn't work out as they expected.

Few percenters always made big changes in human history, and all the rest are mostly hypnotized mases that follow some trend, whatever that is.
People need to be inspired by acts of brave people so they can make changes in their lives and around them, but majority of people would never do that because they are governed and ruled by fear.

Depends on country you live in, but I know examples of people who got everything frozen because of their political views.
Are you sure that bank accounts with tractors of all those farmers are not frozen? 
If they don't freeze their accounts, they will try to take away their land and that is even worse.

To be honest I think we are all much weaker and more spoiled than many generations of people that lived before us.
There is one saying that easy times are creating weak people, and hard times are creating strong people.

Just imagine what will happen when food supplies dry up and fiat currencies go down the gutter (could happen this winter, especially with EUSSR's failed currency)... how are people going to feed themselves and their families/children? Survival instincts (reptilian brain) will kick in!

But wait, WEF has a savior to feed us all (yay, moar safety!):

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielshapiro/2021/01/14/americas-biggest-owner-of-farmland-is-now-bill-gates-bezos-turner/

Why do you think Bill Gates has bought so much land?

1) It's a good hedge against inflation (limited land >>> unlimited USD)

2) He gains a huge leverage over people:

No more meat for you? No worries, Uncle Bill is gonna give you soy "meat"... but only if you're a good boy/girl (whatever gender you prefer, there are hundreds of them ) and you accept CBDCs, UBI and social credit score.

This motherfucker predicted the COVID plandemic back in 2015 and at the same time he started buying tons of farmland...

WEF's Great Reset agenda exists at least since 2016:

https://twitter.com/wef/status/808328302213689344

You better tell me if that's a coincidence or not.

These motherfuckers are not sheeple at all, they have long-term plans and they're willing to wait as long as it takes to implement them.

Safety > freedom (for the masses/sheeple)

People are inherently insecure* (their biggest fear is death/starvation, hence why the "pandemic" narrative was so successful from the get-go), so they're going to flock to whomever promises "safety". The "stay safe" slogan is NOT a coincidence!

* this was imprinted on our genes tens of thousands of years ago (Homo Sapiens emerged in 200.000 BCE), since ancient people had endless freedom, but lack of security and no guaranteed food supplies

As soon as civilization & farming was invented back in 10.000 BCE, people willingly exchanged their freedom (hunter gatherer lifestyle) for safety/security (and worse/inferior food, like wheat compared to meat).

Inevitable to witness the fourth-turning sheep "massacre". Fascism steps on ignorance. And ignorant, weak people are nowadays abundant.

And the worst part is that most people are going to sleepwalk straight into it.  It's like the masses are completely oblivious to the ever-creeping threat of fascism.

Neither do I, but I don't socialize with people who'd have their accounts frozen, even though they sometime freeze accounts arbitrarily.

From a quick search, bitcoin users and protestors aren't friends with the banks.

• https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/17/russia-todays-uk-bank-accounts-frozen-says-editor
• https://canucklaw.ca/emergencies-act-invoked-bank-accounts/
• http://www.smh.com.au/business/bitcoin-tensions-rise-as-investors-claim-banks-freezing-their-accounts-20171229-p4yy3z.html
• http://localbitcoins.blogspot.fi/2013/06/localbitcoinscom-bank-account-frozen.html
• https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/my-bank-accounts-got-robbed-by-european-commission-over-700k-is-lost-160292

Can't imagine how capricious it'll be to get rated in such score system. Like, how low can we reach? Absolutely terrifying.

It's such a hypocritical situation. No vendor ever worries about the history of the bills they receive, despite it being perfectly possible to exactly identify individual bills which were involved in robbery, theft, scam, etc., due to their serial numbers. And yet large fiat institutions advance the concept of bitcoin taint, despite it (usually) being completely impossible to identify individual bitcoin or satoshi which were involved in a robbery, theft, scam, etc., due to the very nature of UTXOs being joined and split.

In fiat we can be 100% sure which bills are tainted, but no one cares.
In bitcoin we can only poorly guess at which outputs are tainted, but apparently it has to underpin the entire ecosystem.
Buying in to this nonsense is an active attack on bitcoin.

Absolutely. It is the next logical step in the surveillance state. In many countries people are already scared to speak out against their government. That fear will only get worse when the government can choose to immediately freeze all your money pending your "re-education".

In the future they will freeze your CBDC funds if you have a low social credit score...

"Normal" people with "high" social credit score won't face any issues, just like people who are compliant to dictatorships face no issues.

I don't (personally) know anyone who had their bank account frozen. I know the stories, and from those it looks like it's (Amsterdam) coffee shops and prostitutes (those are legal businesses) who have a hard time keeping a bank account. But "normal" people here don't lose access to their account. The only questions I got from my bank were relating to Bitcoin trades.

I think it would be for everyone to decide by themselves if it's more acceptable. But I believe it's more comforting to know that funds from a personal wallet are always accepted, so in those cases you would theoretically just need an extra step instead of e.g. withdrawing from an exchange directly into another one's deposit address or to a web shop's payment address.

It's inevitable..



You may be surprised; in my experience especially the last few years, I get the best feedback and interest in Bitcoin when I bring up the issues that fiat has (like frozen bank accounts etc.) and ask people if they experienced similar problems with banks. Then I explain them how Bitcoin fixes that and it really sparks much more interest than trying to explain how good of an investment it is. Especially since that's not its original goal anyway.

How's that? I mean how are a few percent opposing these new measures enough to stop them?

What's also important to note is: Being subjected to "taint" and not being private (enough) are completely different situations. Even if we had zero services that treated bitcoin as non-fungible, we'd still have inadequate privacy in bitcoin transactions, part of which Lightning is improving at the moment.

On the other hand, physical cash is strongly more anonymous. Serial numbers don't reveal the direction of the coin. Therefore, there's no room for data brokers.

It feels to me as if government wants everyone to have a paid job (paying taxes), even though they could do the same thing without payment. So if I help you, and you help me, we're good. But if I pay you for your help, and you pay me, we're both paying income tax. Formalizing normal actions makes the GDP grow, but we'd both have less money in the end.

That's the thing: with cash, I don't worry about this, because I don't have to! The police can ask anything they want, and as long as I didn't break any laws when I received that money, I'm not in any trouble. The whole idea of "taint" in Bitcoin is to make people liable for other people's actions, which doesn't apply to cash fiat money:
(click for the full quote)

The bolded part is the interesting part: the idea of taint damages confidence in Bitcoin. With fiat, there are quite powerful institutions protecting that confidence. With Bitcoin, the same powerful institutions would like to see Bitcoin fail. And if taint can contribute to damaging people's confidence, then that's what they'll try to convince you of.

Cash is not 100% anonymous.

Serial numbers exist for a reason and they're being recorded in certain cases (i.e. bank burglary).

You do NOT want "tainted" banknotes in your hands... the police will ask where you found them.

Also, ECB had plans to embed RFID chips in Euro banknotes long time ago:

https://www.eetimes.com/euro-bank-notes-to-embed-rfid-chips-by-2005/
https://www.fleur-de-coin.com/eurocoins/banknote-rfid

Not sure why they scrapped their plans, maybe logistics didn't pan out.

Now they have CBDCs to fulfill their sinister plans, so no need for elaborate physical tracking mechanisms...

Agree. But we’re still in the minority, most people don’t have these considerations. Cash back, some free bonuses and ability to pay bills later? They will use a credit card. There are no privacy considerations for most people.

Even in Bitcoin it’s still hard to get people off centralized exchanges or services that use chain analysis and blacklists, and even scams like celsius held a lot of Bitcoin that people deposited there. I don’t remember the exact number, but it was a lot. People gave up self custody and privacy for a ponzi scheme, just because it promised a lot of yield. They preferred this over the actual system that is built to protect them from this. There’s a lot of people that give up all principles for the idea of getting more return, but it never even has to happen. That’s the paradox.

Yup, so i expect people to choose Bitcoin, because it’s much more saleable than other things already. This was more for the case that Bitcoin didn’t exist. Bitcoin still gives everyone access to a worldwide market, no matter how bad cbdcs get. I don’t see the majority choosing something else over this. Removing cash can be the next catalyst for Bitcoin.

They know what they’re doing, but apart from this. In the eu specifically they tried to increase spending since a long time now. The whole strategy of negative or zero interest rates exists since a long time now, and partly to achieve this. But it failed hard in the end. So now they have to go into more extremes, with cbdcs they could completely micromanage how people spend their money. Central banks don’t really have any dry powder anymore, and i expect them to go into extremes to smh keep this broken system alive, there’s no other choice. It’s this or a huge financial crisis for them. They also would never admit defeat to Bitcoin voluntarily, even if they could really fix the mess like this. It’s also about self preservation.

For reference:
We had a complete downwards trend in interest rates since 2008.

Since 2009, there's pretty much a choice to avoid median disputes, high transaction fees and account suspensions for arbitrary reasons. The fact that the merchants and employers don't bother to look into their collective benefit doesn't mean there's no other choice.

Sure. But, using cash over credit card is absolutely more private than it is convenient to use credit card over cash, and more important.

The only alternative to physical cash is electronic cash.

I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing. First "inflation is transitory", then "inflation might stay", now "define recession". I'm sure they all share the same agenda, that is the great reset.

Yes, although I think our 24% VAT is what takes the cake. Twenty four percent. About a quarter of it.

Oh so you are dirty criminal like Al Capone was I hope there are no government bots in forum that are tracking and reporting your words to big brother.
You won't be able to do this anymore when they try to unite your digital ID with eeuro, but maybe people should switch back to drahma, gold and bitcoins.
Problem with all their digital money numbers is unlimited supply and you can't verify it's supply, so it's perfect for government criminals, oh and they can make it with expiration date.

I even heard from one greek friend that you didn't have to pay any property ownership tax until recently when law changed, and I think taxes like that are pure extortion.
You pay tax when you buy land or house, but it's not really yours but it's the property of the state and they can take it away if they want.

Don't worry about governments, they have all the tools to bribe and incentivize people to use whatever they want, just look what happened in past.
But good thing is that we don't need majority of people, even few percent of people that don't comply will be enough, question is do we even have few percent willing to stand up

What they call shadow-economy is actually free trading between people and this should be perfectly normal, but I guess we are living in crazy world.
I think government controllers would like most if we don't own anything (including money) and rent everything digitally.

Oftentimes there is no other choice, i need a bank account to receive my paycheck. Sometimes the poorest in richer countries still need credit cards to still be able to transact when their bank account is already empty for this month. Sometimes its more convenient, because its more divisible than cash. You cant really pay online with cash. A debit/ credit card can sometimes be the easier/ cheaper way to transact in foreign countries, if you have a good one with low fees. There is some advantages when using credit/ debit cards depending on the situation. Most people just use a mix of everything depending on whats easiest based on the situation. Many people simply also were never affected by the points you listed above and still trust the system. They have no clue how the system works and distrust Bitcoin on the other hand and think its just hot air.

When cash disappears they need an alternative, it can be a worse alternative if theres no better choice anymore, as long as its still better than an e-euro for the situation they need it in.

The most saleable good, depending on the situation where its used. If were heading into central planning and an e-euro wouldnt allow for all kinds of transactions, then there is another more saleable good in these specific ones. In prisons that dont allow their inmates to earn money, something like cigarettes still serves as something like money. In prisons that allow their inmates to earn money, they can buy things with regular fiat. If a prison doesnt allow trade between inmates with fiat, inmates would still use the next best good to do it, for example cigarettes.

It all depends on which good is the most saleable, if were going after monetary theory. This is what the bureaucrats forgot, because they stopped studying it. They cant micromanage how money is spent, first they tried with inflation, now they will probably try cbdcs. But they will affect the degree of saleability of their shitcoins more and more, and other forms of payment will emerge in situations where their new currency becomes unusable.

Yes. We're good at it. Laws here are close to optional. More like if they go well with you. 

Most people nowadays use credit/debit cards and bank accounts, wherein they get their account frozen, charged with disputes, high fees etc. Yet, they still use them. Is it ignorance? I don't know, but they have their freedom infringed and most don't even react.

I doubt it. Without physical cash there's no other private and convenient method to transact.

Some jobs can't be done without cash, even if they belong to the shadow economy. These people don't "get in", because they currently see no tangible difference. But, once their cash will no longer be an option, where do you see them head at?