Topic: BlackRock Bitcoin ETF to Partners with Coinbase (Read 321 times)
All that blackrock etf story is only to manipulate and control btc price and make it more centralized. Not sure that this is good news for industry
I think the approval of ETF will only benefits the centralized commodities not people that cares about non custodial actions in crypto space.
If you care about self custody you'll not have anything to do with BTC ETF's, you'll not have any problem using your self custody wallet, buying from an exchange or storing your seed phrase, but it doesn't mean BTC spot ETF's shouldn't be introduced for those who need it. If institutional investors do not want to have self custody of their BTC's, let them purchase through BTC spot ETF's, they know what the risks are, they have to trust a third party and they'll not have their keys, but at least they will be bringing money into the BTC network which can take the network closer to mass adoption. 
Why is all these making me feel like Gensler already won this war? Because it looks like this was is plan from the start, the centralization is slowly crawling on everything crypto and it's happening before our eyes, the take over is already happening, are you guys sleeping on this? I think the approval of ETF will only benefits the centralized commodities not people that cares about non custodial actions in crypto space.
windfury.. read more
Quote
The Sponsor will base its determination on whatever factors it deems relevant, including but not limited to, the Sponsor’s beliefs regarding expectations of the core developers of bitcoin, users, services, businesses, miners and other constituencies, as well as the actual continued acceptance of, mining power on, and community engagement with, the Bitcoin network, or whatever other factors it deems relevant.
They mention that, but there's more in that paragraph which possibly could overrule what they have just mentioned.
Quote
In the event of a hard fork of the Bitcoin network, the Sponsor will, as permitted by the terms of the Trust Agreement, use its sole discretion to determine, in good faith, which peer-to-peer network, among a group of incompatible forks of the Bitcoin network, is generally accepted as the Bitcoin network and should therefore be considered the appropriate network for the Trust’s purposes.
The Sponsor will base its determination on whatever factors it deems relevant, including but not limited to, the Sponsor’s beliefs regarding expectations of the core developers of bitcoin, users, services, businesses, miners and other constituencies, as well as the actual continued acceptance of, mining power on, and community engagement with, the Bitcoin network, or whatever other factors it deems relevant.
There is no guarantee that the Sponsor will choose the digital asset that is ultimately the most valuable fork, and the Sponsor’s decision may adversely affect the value of the Shares as a result. The Sponsor may also disagree with Shareholders, the Bitcoin Custodian, other service providers, the Index Administrator, cryptocurrency exchanges, or other market participants on what is generally accepted as bitcoin and should therefore be considered “bitcoin” for the Trust’s purposes, which may also adversely affect the value of the Shares as a result.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1980994/000143774923017574/bit20230608_s1.htm
What they're actually saying is that they can disagree on what everyone considers Bitcoin, and have the lone right to choose what fork is in their ETF. There could be a hash war again and they could choose to side with a forked-altcoin.
Possible trojan horse? What's BlackRock's opinion about E.S.G.?
SEC has been rejecting these ETFs for years so why is this a big deal? Well because it’s BlackRock which is huge in the industry and they wouldn’t waste their time if they knew it wouldn’t have a chance at getting approved. Also since it’s a trust it has a better chance of getting approved.
BlackRock has an etf approval rate of 575 - 1. Its highly unlikely they get rejected.
Of course Gensler will bend over for the legacy asset managers and give them a green light, even though nobody wants to clarify exactly which cryptocurrencies are securities and which ones are not.
I think people should be cautiously optimistic as all the past hype we had with ETF filings ended up being a nothing burger. Though on the bright side, we're talking about BlockRock here which is a huge ass company. They most definitely have the resources to hopefully get this approved.
Agreed, however, the decision on the case between Grayscale and the SEC might be coming soon. If Barry Silbert and Grayscale are victorious, the SEC might have no choice but to approve GBTC's conversion to become an ETF. This will certainly be very optimistic for BlackRock's ETF application hehe.
The skeptical me thinks that BlackRock knows this and with their connections, they might also help Grayscale win their case?
an ETF is not the same as for instance buying shares in tesla(a company)
an ETF is not about assets of a companies retail function(standard stocks)
an ETF is different
an ETF is about a trust/brand who is offering its assets as collateral against shares of that trust/brand
its a separate category compared to standard stocks and shares of a company.
its standard practice for ETF to be structured like this.
here is a clue for you..
do you know the biggest ETF.. ill tell you its prudential. do you know its official nake of its ETF
"PGIM ETF Trust"
this trust has assets of alot of different investments. majority of them are also stored as.. wait for it.. trusts
the details to scrutinise about blackrock is not that its a trust. but what type of agreements the trust has, for instance in what circumstances can the sponsors dissolve it. if they can. and how.
for instance reading it, it shows that the trust can be dissolved if its forced to register as a MSB, or required to get a money transmitter licence or bitlicence.. and how share holders have no voting rights over decisions of changes to the agreement.
so while you play boring games of "OMG its a trust", move a few decades further on in your understanding of ETF structures and understand what really can make users of an ETF wary.
an ETF is not about assets of a companies retail function(standard stocks)
an ETF is different
an ETF is about a trust/brand who is offering its assets as collateral against shares of that trust/brand
its a separate category compared to standard stocks and shares of a company.
its standard practice for ETF to be structured like this.
here is a clue for you..
do you know the biggest ETF.. ill tell you its prudential. do you know its official nake of its ETF
"PGIM ETF Trust"
this trust has assets of alot of different investments. majority of them are also stored as.. wait for it.. trusts
the details to scrutinise about blackrock is not that its a trust. but what type of agreements the trust has, for instance in what circumstances can the sponsors dissolve it. if they can. and how.
for instance reading it, it shows that the trust can be dissolved if its forced to register as a MSB, or required to get a money transmitter licence or bitlicence.. and how share holders have no voting rights over decisions of changes to the agreement.
so while you play boring games of "OMG its a trust", move a few decades further on in your understanding of ETF structures and understand what really can make users of an ETF wary.
But it's not an ETF, but a Trust as asadeb already posted.
yes it is a trust.. learn what the T of ETF means
but ontop of being a Trust, it's a trust based on Funds. (rather then property like real estate, art, IP, cars)
so thats the F part
and they have an Exchange system too which explains the E part(as oppose to just being a locked value trust, storing value until a richguys offspring/relative reaches a certain age)
E.T.F. = Exchange Traded Fund
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange-traded_fund
Quote
edit to respond to below
exchange and traded mean the same synonym.. most people in the finance world treat the T as TRUST
Doubling down are we?
In the context of this topic, the technical differences between an ETF and a Trust matters. Because like what adaseb posted, if BlackRock's application is technically for a Trust like Grayscale's GBTC, then the public should be well-informed to know the differences between the two.
But it's not an ETF, but a Trust as asadeb already posted.
yes it is a trust.. learn what the T of ETF means *
but ontop of being a Trust, it's a trust based on Funds. (rather then property like real estate, art, IP, cars)
so thats the F part
and they have an Exchange system too which explains the E part(as oppose to just being a locked value trust, storing value until a richguys offspring/relative reaches a certain age)
edit to respond to below
*not literally(like a 5 year old) i mean figuratively as in learn how the structure is laid out of most ETF
exchange and traded mean the same synonym.. most people in the finance world treat the T as TRUST because thats the structure they set up for it in more then 9/10 cases.
if you think that ETF's are never and have never been structured as a trust before then you really do need to learn more.
heck even grayscales ETF offering is in the structure of a trust as just one example
seems you only want to take the literal 5yo approach to thinking about things, rather then researching further. i regret trying to simplifying it for you. seems people do need to put the extra leg work into explaining things..
so please go learn more about ETF and their structure. because in more then 9/10 cases they are all trust based systems
if it was company ownership based then thats just normal stocks and shares systems not an ETF. learn the difference of the structure that makes things a ETF instead of a standard company share ownership scheme. for your own learning benefit
As others have said, I'm smelling rejection from a far, there is going to be a big resistance from Gensler himself.
On the other hand, why not just those wealthy directly invest on Bitcoin itself, just simply buy a hardware wallet and put their investment simply as that. I guess this is one reason why old and traditional investors are into into Bitcoin because of too much technicalities involved. And the same reason why BlackRock created this Shares Bitcoin Trust, so that their customers wouldn't go on the intricacies that I have mentioned.
On the other hand, why not just those wealthy directly invest on Bitcoin itself, just simply buy a hardware wallet and put their investment simply as that. I guess this is one reason why old and traditional investors are into into Bitcoin because of too much technicalities involved. And the same reason why BlackRock created this Shares Bitcoin Trust, so that their customers wouldn't go on the intricacies that I have mentioned.
But it's not an ETF, but a Trust as asadeb already posted. Perhaps that helps increases its probability to be accepted? Plus another poster said BlackRock has had only one rejection in all of its applications with the SEC. Those odds are looking very very good for BlackRock. BlockRock is a well-connected company, they probably know somebody from the government who could "ask" Gensler for an approval.
windfury.. read more
basically they will follow the majority of the community in regards to;
majority of community agreement based on
hashrate
services(exchanges, merchants)
and yep follow the chain core devs are authoritarian of
Quote
The Sponsor will base its determination on whatever factors it deems relevant, including but not limited to, the Sponsor’s beliefs regarding expectations of the core developers of bitcoin, users, services, businesses, miners and other constituencies, as well as the actual continued acceptance of, mining power on, and community engagement with, the Bitcoin network, or whatever other factors it deems relevant.
basically they will follow the majority of the community in regards to;
majority of community agreement based on
hashrate
services(exchanges, merchants)
and yep follow the chain core devs are authoritarian of
Correction. The chain the Core Developers are being allowed to be the steward of.
For a long time, BTC ETF has been proposed over and over, it would be the first in history to have BTC Spot ETF. This legitimizes institutions that are coming to buy your Bitcoin.
coming for mine? nah. im hoarding for another decade or so (unless bitcoin network completely breaks utility ease).. (you know 'the burden of users using actual bitcoin' they hint at)
i see 2 paths for the "institutions"
if approved
a. blackrock becomes the defacto sole spot ETF where it has 'agents' managing baskets. where by grayscale, institutions and even binance become agents of blackrock. offering blackrock shares by these exchanges first selling their reserved btc to blackrock and then taking blackrocks share equivalents back as baskets of shares to then offer customers
b. blackrock sets precedence and everyone copies the template format which blackrock set, knowing it will get instant approval and loads of spot ETF's start up with their own share scheme.
in point A scenario institutions wont be buying coin they will be buying share baskets to then offer shares to institutions customers. where only blackrock does the buying/hoarding of coin. and institutions just give blackrock billions in fiat to buy baskets of shares
in point B scenario we see lots of institutions have their own trusts, buying clusters of coin to form their own baskets to then create share equivalents branded as each institutions share scheme.. however it then becomes a bigger cost/burden on their own regulation management and dilutes the whole offering by having competition. so i see scenario A being the more plausible route
Turns out that blackrock doesn’t file these requests when they know it has a chance of being rejected. They apparently have like a 550 approvals and 1 rejection for all their etfs. So this means that this etf is going to be approved most likely.
Will it cause a rally? Well I think it will be a buy the rumor and sell the news event like before. When BTC futures were listed and when Bitcoin etf Bito was listed they all marked the top. I have a feeling this won’t be any different.
Will it cause a rally? Well I think it will be a buy the rumor and sell the news event like before. When BTC futures were listed and when Bitcoin etf Bito was listed they all marked the top. I have a feeling this won’t be any different.
Still, a lot of people are not expecting that Bitcoin ETF will be approved. Even though that is what most people think, I am still supporting that these Bitcoin ETF will be approved because I believe it's a good thing also especially what happened to Gold ETF before.
It will help Bitcoin to be known or legitimized in the eyes of people, especially the regulators.
It will help Bitcoin to be known or legitimized in the eyes of people, especially the regulators.
As others have said, I'm smelling rejection from a far, there is going to be a big resistance from Gensler himself.
On the other hand, why not just those wealthy directly invest on Bitcoin itself, just simply buy a hardware wallet and put their investment simply as that. I guess this is one reason why old and traditional investors are into into Bitcoin because of too much technicalities involved. And the same reason why BlackRock created this Shares Bitcoin Trust, so that their customers wouldn't go on the intricacies that I have mentioned.
On the other hand, why not just those wealthy directly invest on Bitcoin itself, just simply buy a hardware wallet and put their investment simply as that. I guess this is one reason why old and traditional investors are into into Bitcoin because of too much technicalities involved. And the same reason why BlackRock created this Shares Bitcoin Trust, so that their customers wouldn't go on the intricacies that I have mentioned.
Anyone have any details of their agreement with Coinbase? I’m wondering if Coinbase takes a percentage of the total holdings or if it was a one time thing or what. If it’s a deal based on a percentage and this ETF turns out to be massive, this could be a good source of revenue for Coinbase. That to me makes them a more interesting investment than their fee heavy exchange.
coinbase offers a vault service
coinbase is the service provider and blackrock are the customer of coinbase vault.
coinbase is simply the vault(custodian) for blackrocks coins in trust
its not the same as the "partnership" coinbase has with grayscale
blackorck is simply a customer of coinbase
Binance.us has been settled and Binance agreed to only hire US base employees. Partner or not, Binance.us would also be interested if Coinbase makes money out of being custodial of the BTC for the Blackrock customers.
For a long time, BTC ETF has been proposed over and over, it would be the first in history to have BTC Spot ETF. This legitimizes institutions that are coming to buy your Bitcoin.
Anyone have any details of their agreement with Coinbase? I’m wondering if Coinbase takes a percentage of the total holdings or if it was a one time thing or what. If it’s a deal based on a percentage and this ETF turns out to be massive, this could be a good source of revenue for Coinbase. That to me makes them a more interesting investment than their fee heavy exchange.
coinbase offers a vault service
coinbase is the service provider and blackrock are the customer of coinbase vault.
coinbase is simply the vault(custodian) for blackrocks coins in trust
its not the same as the "partnership" coinbase has with grayscale
blackrock is simply a customer of coinbase
Anyone have any details of their agreement with Coinbase? I’m wondering if Coinbase takes a percentage of the total holdings or if it was a one time thing or what. If it’s a deal based on a percentage and this ETF turns out to be massive, this could be a good source of revenue for Coinbase. That to me makes them a more interesting investment than their fee heavy exchange.
windfury.. read more
basically they will follow the majority of the community in regards to;
majority of community agreement based on
hashrate
services(exchanges, merchants)
and yep follow the chain core devs are authoritarian of
however.. my main point in other posts is that the share price will not precisely match bitcoins spot price due to many factors such as the one mentioned in my previous post
things like
meaning if you bought 1 share 20 years ago expect it to have atleast 40% less sats to convert to after atleast the sponsor fee deducts 2% of sats from the conversion rate each year plus all of the trusts own costs
however if you only wish to learn about forks
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1980994/000143774923017574/bit20230608_s1.htm
page 10
it mentions when bitcoin does do a fork. the sponsors claim rights to the 'air-drop'- 'fork coins' which the sponsor can sell at its own leisure under its own discretion. but vaguely suggests that it will pay it out to share holders as dividends in the form of fiat money. i say vaguely because theres no guarantee and instead they can just not claim forked coins to sell to give dividends
Quote
The Sponsor will base its determination on whatever factors it deems relevant, including but not limited to, the Sponsor’s beliefs regarding expectations of the core developers of bitcoin, users, services, businesses, miners and other constituencies, as well as the actual continued acceptance of, mining power on, and community engagement with, the Bitcoin network, or whatever other factors it deems relevant.
basically they will follow the majority of the community in regards to;
majority of community agreement based on
hashrate
services(exchanges, merchants)
and yep follow the chain core devs are authoritarian of
however.. my main point in other posts is that the share price will not precisely match bitcoins spot price due to many factors such as the one mentioned in my previous post
things like
Quote
The number of bitcoins represented by a Share will decline each time the Trust pays the Sponsor’s Fee or any Trust expenses not assumed by the Sponsor by transferring or selling bitcoins.
meaning 1 share will not be equal forever to 0.000x btcmeaning if you bought 1 share 20 years ago expect it to have atleast 40% less sats to convert to after atleast the sponsor fee deducts 2% of sats from the conversion rate each year plus all of the trusts own costs
however if you only wish to learn about forks
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1980994/000143774923017574/bit20230608_s1.htm
page 10
it mentions when bitcoin does do a fork. the sponsors claim rights to the 'air-drop'- 'fork coins' which the sponsor can sell at its own leisure under its own discretion. but vaguely suggests that it will pay it out to share holders as dividends in the form of fiat money. i say vaguely because theres no guarantee and instead they can just not claim forked coins to sell to give dividends
Quote
With respect to any fork, airdrop or similar event, the Sponsor shall, in its sole discretion, determine what action the Trust shall take. In the event of a fork, the Sponsor will, as permitted by the terms of the Trust Agreement, determine which network it believes is generally accepted as the Bitcoin network and should therefore be considered the appropriate network, and the associated asset as bitcoin, for the Trust’s purposes.
The Sponsor may decide to cause the Trust to sell any Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency for cash (including, as determined by the Sponsor, in the case of a fork, the asset that is not generally accepted as bitcoin, or in the case of an airdrop, the airdropped asset) and distribute the cash proceeds or distribute them in-kind to DTC, and registered holders of Shares are entitled to receive such distributions in proportion to the number of shares owned. However, the Sponsor may instead determine, in its sole discretion, to permanently and irrevocably abandon such Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency for no consideration. In the case of abandonment of Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency, the Trust would not receive any direct or indirect consideration for the Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency and thus the value of the Shares will not reflect the value of the Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency.
The Sponsor may decide to cause the Trust to sell any Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency for cash (including, as determined by the Sponsor, in the case of a fork, the asset that is not generally accepted as bitcoin, or in the case of an airdrop, the airdropped asset) and distribute the cash proceeds or distribute them in-kind to DTC, and registered holders of Shares are entitled to receive such distributions in proportion to the number of shares owned. However, the Sponsor may instead determine, in its sole discretion, to permanently and irrevocably abandon such Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency for no consideration. In the case of abandonment of Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency, the Trust would not receive any direct or indirect consideration for the Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency and thus the value of the Shares will not reflect the value of the Incidental Rights or IR Virtual Currency.
reading into the filing.. blackrock are trying to be vague about the conversion rate..
Never mind trying to be vague about the conversion rate, what's this?
Quote
In the event of a hard fork of the Bitcoin network, the Sponsor will, if permitted by the terms of the Trust Agreement, use its discretion to determine which network should be considered the appropriate network for the Trust’s purposes, and in doing so may adversely affect the value of the Shares.
In the event of a hard fork of the Bitcoin network, the Sponsor will, as permitted by the terms of the Trust Agreement, use its sole discretion to determine, in good faith, which peer-to-peer network, among a group of incompatible forks of the Bitcoin network, is generally accepted as the Bitcoin network and should therefore be considered the appropriate network for the Trust’s purposes. The Sponsor will base its determination on whatever factors it deems relevant, including but not limited to, the Sponsor’s beliefs regarding expectations of the core developers of bitcoin, users, services, businesses, miners and other constituencies, as well as the actual continued acceptance of, mining power on, and community engagement with, the Bitcoin network, or whatever other factors it deems relevant. There is no guarantee that the Sponsor will choose the digital asset that is ultimately the most valuable fork, and the Sponsor’s decision may adversely affect the value of the Shares as a result. The Sponsor may also disagree with Shareholders, the Bitcoin Custodian, other service providers, the Index Administrator, cryptocurrency exchanges, or other market participants on what is generally accepted as bitcoin and should therefore be considered “bitcoin” for the Trust’s purposes, which may also adversely affect the value of the Shares as a result.
They're trying to be vague in what truly is Bitcoin, and they're making themselves have the legal right to tell their investors that, in case of a hard fork, the "real Bitcoin" will be under their discretion.
BlackRock could essentially fork Bitcoin, then tell the holders of their ETF that it's the real Bitcoin.
Plus they should specify the date of "in the event of a hard fork", and say forks before X are not Bitcoin. From the current wording, BlackRock could say that BCash is Bitcoin under their discretion?
The approval record for Blackrock requesting ETF’s by the SEC is 575 with 1 denial. 575-1 I think the odds are heavily in the favour of approval. This is probably why the SEC has denied all spot bitcoin ETF’s previously, they were paving the way for the big boys.
Obviously not your keys not your coins but if this is approved institutional investors will pile in. Pension funds & 401k’s will be permitted to invest. This will drive the next big run up. Buckle up, it’s going to be fun.
Obviously not your keys not your coins but if this is approved institutional investors will pile in. Pension funds & 401k’s will be permitted to invest. This will drive the next big run up. Buckle up, it’s going to be fun.
the benefits hoped would be that if approved.
a. blackrock will set precedence of a accepted template which other institutions can then emulate. and yes previous applications declined do seem to be about the SEC waiting for their wallstreet big boy pals to be first movers.
b. if buying 1k bundles of bitcoin to call them 'baskets' of shares say 40,000shares. the hopes are alot of whale purchasing on open CEX market to push the price up
however most of these ETF sponsors have already grabbed loads of coins via private OTC markets which have not impacted the CEX market price. and if they continue to just buy from private OTC services then new basket creations wont push the CEX market price up much
i can easily see DCG selling their 'trust' to blakcrock if blackrock gets approved where DCG become partners or exit to retire to an exotic island passing their closed private customers over to blackrock to manage
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