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Topic: Blockchain = Powerful Tool for Keynesian Monetary Policy - page 4. (Read 11479 times)

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
cunicula has presented a very interesting scenario and no one tried to prove it impossible except by trolling or personal attacks. I'll try to show that it's not so easy as cunicula claims it to be.

You see, the described scenario makes 51% attack very profitable (because the central bank profits off of it). This means that a third party will be very much motivated to claim this power to themselves, so the central bank will be constantly pressured to increase its hash power to compete with the third party, ideally to the point of next-to-zero returns from monetary policy. What do you think about that?
There are many third parties that can be involved. We the People are not always motivated by profit and can make a 51% attack very unprofitable for any attacker.

Final counter 3: Block IPs not trusted; all central blocks would then go into thin air - ONE update.
tor
Doesn't matter: If I see a 51% attack and set my client to only trust the mtgox IP for instance then you can fake coming from all the IPs you want using TOR, but that will never get your block on my client.
It's funny I am called the pig here when other posters are displaying such immense ignorance of basic TOR/IP/internet function.
Woah, you'll have to educate my sorry ignorant ass here. What, are you gonna ask mtgox to ignore blocks coming from tor aswell? Identifying a 51% attack must needs be based in properties of the blocks mined, not which IP they come from. Andresens' crude PoS, for example, linked in this thread would work on block properties.
TOR is an experimental network with limited capabilities. I doubt that Bitcoin will remain completely anonymous. A 51% attack would require tremendous resources that would be difficult at best to remain hidden and secret.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
2040? You must get out of your cave and look around a little. Situation is quite 1984-esque already.
I tend to compare today's western societies more to Huxley's "Brave New World". But, really, I think of room 101 in 1984 as the "stick" and soma in Brave New World as the "carrot", both getting people to be docile citizens. Put in 2020 if you prefer, I'm sure you did realise that the actual year wasn't the important part of what I wrote.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
I wouldn't use a system that is under 51% attack regardless of whether it's PoS or PoW. As I said earlier, such a system would be no different than the current fiat system, where the Federal Reserve has the biggest stake, and most control.
Imagine a policeman in the year 2040. The state pays him in GovCoins (thx for the name, bitcooper) over which it exerts full control. Would he accept those coins? In the case of a BigGovt, where a sizeable fraction of citizens are paid in GovCoins, do you think a majority of shops and businesses will accept GovCoins? In that scenario, could GovCoins represent a larger fraction of the economy than the (let's assume) outlawed bitcoins? In that scenario, would the government have unprecedented control over, and information of, companies' and people's spending habits? Would it be a 1984-esque situation, only more tyrannical?  If such a situation came to pass, in any one nation, or in all nations, or globally, would you say that bitcoin and blockchain technology are crucial to enabling that situation?

If it helps, I agree with you - GovCoins would indeed be little different from the current paradigm of money of which, I think you'll probably agree, most people are ignorant of the problems.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
Counter 1: The central banks of the world are honestly too stupid and short sighted to compete with the worlds largest super computer - Bitcoin.
Be careful - don't naively underestimate your opponents' skills.
How does cognitive dissonance apply to a distributed computing project? Better yet, how is a distributed computer incompetent? I think you're missapplying that favorite insult of yours to an inanimate system.
Cognitive bias does not apply to non-cognitive systems. Think again. To my knowledge I don't actually have a "favorite" insult - I prefer to use a variety. Feel free to enlighten me though, a dog never can smell his own scent (or so they say).

Final counter 3: Block IPs not trusted; all central blocks would then go into thin air - ONE update.
tor
Doesn't matter: If I see a 51% attack and set my client to only trust the mtgox IP for instance then you can fake coming from all the IPs you want using TOR, but that will never get your block on my client.
It's funny I am called the pig here when other posters are displaying such immense ignorance of basic TOR/IP/internet function.
Woah, you'll have to educate my sorry ignorant ass here. What, are you gonna ask mtgox to ignore blocks coming from tor aswell? Identifying a 51% attack must needs be based in properties of the blocks mined, not which IP they come from. Andresens' crude PoS, for example, linked in this thread would work on block properties.


Suppose the central bank controls 51% of hashing power and wants to achieve a stimulus equivalent to a 3% increase in inflation.
Simply demand a txn fee equal to 3% of coin-age (with age measured in years). This is just like instantaneously increasing the inflation rate by 3%.
Yes. To stimulate spending, you must increase the cost of spending money. GENIUS!
I think cunicula means to increase the cost of *saving* money. Though I'm not sure that a simple linear tax on bitcoin-days would do the job.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
I'm going to chime in as usual to point out that I think cunicula makes really insightful posts! I very much enjoy reading them (although admittedly I don't always scrutinize the details carefully).

Thanks, I appreciate your support.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
I'm going to chime in as usual to point out that I think cunicula makes really insightful posts! I very much enjoy reading them (although admittedly I don't always scrutinize the details carefully).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I see no threats. And this thread was over at the first reply. There's been nothing substantive discussed since.

Okay, you are referring to this↓ as the sole substantive contribution.
Hmmm, yep, you're still an idiot.

If that is where you want to take the debate I will put you on ignore and resume the thread from the point where we left off.
Go ahead.


I find that a fairly clear indication of signal to noise ratio, don't you?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
Yes, I admit that economics can be counterintuitive. It helps clarify things when you consider specific alternative options.

(i.e. in order to avoid being taxed, I will ... )
Then check if your strategy involves spending. If it does, the government has gotten its wish.

Just so I understand, you are completely serious in your belief that raising the required transaction fee will encourage spending?
Yes
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Since you're repeating posts, I guess I could, too...

I fully expect they will want #2, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites, and I fully expect they will get #3, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites.
/thread.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
It will not be instantly worthless. As I keep saying, it will be exactly like the centralized currency of a Federal Reserve, and thus a currency in decline. The driving incentive will be to squeeze and steal as much value out of an economy using your 51% controlling stake, until something comes along to replace you. You can make way more by controlling the currency and squeezing the remaining 49% out of the economy, than by selling 2% of it. And if you don't do it, someone else will. That's the endgame in that system.

Okay, based on this post it seems you have developed some understanding. Greed leads to monopoly because monopoly is always the most profitable option.

The government has three choices:

1) Prohibit Bitcoin
2) Extract Fees From Bitcoin; Regulate Bitcoin
3) Let People freely use Bitcoin without interference.

We can see that, provided the government is hungry for revenue and control, 2 will seem like the best option. 1 will not generate revenue and will cause financial instability. The ECB seeks to avoid this first and foremost. 3 will result in a loss of revenue and control over the monetary system. The ECB seeks to avoid this also. 2 provides control, revenue, and stability. All stuff that governments and central banks like. I understand that you do not like these things and prefer 3. That is called wishful thinking.

What can be done to prevent 2? Nothing very effective, but there are some counter measures. PoS helps to insure users against 2 (i.e. users get a payout from the state if 2 occurs). PoS also makes 2 an order of magnitude more expensive to achieve.
  
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
I see no threats. And this thread was over at the first reply. There's been nothing substantive discussed since.

Okay, you are referring to this↓ as the sole substantive contribution.
Hmmm, yep, you're still an idiot.

If that is where you want to take the debate I will put you on ignore and resume the thread from the point where we left off.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Wow, Rarity seems like a smart guy. Never read that, but I see the similarity in the two threads.

No wonder Rarity was banned. These are libertarian forums after all.

Rarity was banned for trolling. A fate I suspect you are rapidly approaching.

Threats are a good way to [/thread], huh? Are you trying to discuss a substantive issue in the thread? If not, why are you here?

I see no threats. And this thread was over at the first reply. There's been nothing substantive discussed since.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003

Wow, Rarity seems like a smart guy. Never read that, but I see the similarity in the two threads.

No wonder Rarity was banned. These are libertarian forums after all.

Rarity was banned for trolling. A fate I suspect you are rapidly approaching.

Threats are a good way to [/thread], huh? Are you trying to discuss a substantive issue in the thread? If not, why are you here?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Wow, Rarity seems like a smart guy. Never read that, but I see the similarity in the two threads.

No wonder Rarity was banned. These are libertarian forums after all.

Rarity was banned for trolling. A fate I suspect you are rapidly approaching.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003

Wow, Rarity seems like a smart guy. Never read that, but I see the similarity in the two threads.

No wonder Rarity was banned. These are libertarian forums after all.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
I fully expect they will want #2, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites, and I fully expect they will get #3, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites.

As far as bittorent, most governments don't really care. They are kind of on the fence with this issue. Try uploading pre-screen release movies and you will see a different reaction. Some governments are even very happy with piracy. It means they don't have to pay the US for all the crap the US makes. Instead they can get it for free.

Is the full database of drug sellers available somewhere? I think LE may be interested in that one.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I fully expect they will want #2, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites, and I fully expect they will get #3, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites.
/thread. Of course, it was /thread all the way back here...

Hmmm, yep, you're still an idiot.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
I fully expect they will want #2, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites, and I fully expect they will get #3, like with drugs, bittorrent, and illegal websites.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Ever try to nail gelatin to a tree?

Yes, libertarian heads are made of gelatin and I am always trying to nail them to trees.
Are you retarded, or just stoned?

You are the one suggesting that the government will abstain from using a database to pursue taxation goals.
I am not suggesting the government will abstain. I am suggesting that it will be futile. Like trying to nail gelatin to a tree.
I am the one who is retarded or stoned.
Rarity, is that you?
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
Yes, I admit that economics can be counterintuitive. It helps clarify things when you consider specific alternative options.

(i.e. in order to avoid being taxed, I will ... )
Then check if your strategy involves spending. If it does, the government has gotten its wish.

Just so I understand, you are completely serious in your belief that raising the required transaction fee will encourage spending?
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