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Topic: blockstream - wants to tax you and become the new Bitcoin oligarchy (Read 8953 times)

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
I think that would probably be too small of an increase, especially if Bitcoin is going to gain widespread adoption.
I think that it is decent if used accordingly with the right starting block size limit. Obviously 17.7% yearly is surely not going to cause any problems (unless technology development comes to a complete halt, which I doubt).
I agree that over the long term, there will likely be more off-chain uses for Bitcoin then there are now (one example of this would be someone prepaying a weeks worth of coffee onto a gift card and the user would use the gift card every day until they need to add additional funds to such card). However the max block size does need to increase a lot in order for Bitcoin to reach any level of mass adoption. Bitcoin was designed to be scalable, although it made little sense when Bitcoin was very new to have very large blocks because Bitcoin was not being used that much and because the cost of storage/the cost of bandwidth was higher then it is now.
-snip-
Well it looks like people have different opinions in regards to that. We have people like Maxwell who believe that scaling upwards (with a hard fork) is a bad way of doing it. The we have Gavin (including myself) who thinks that this is just 'kicking the can down the road'. There are plenty of other examples. It's hard to reach consensus when everyone is acting stubborn and when there is a obvious lack of communication.


I am glad that you agree on the larger block sizes. I am unsure about the others though. I do support a small amount of off chain transactions, and although I do not drink coffee, I would trust Starbucks with the ~$20 or so that I would need to send them each week in order to buy a cup of coffee every day.
Actually I was supportive of bigger blocks ever since the first big debate (earlier in 2015) on this very forum. However, what I do dislike is the approach that Gavin and Hearn are taking. Obviously in order for something like BIP101 to work there needs to be a lot of testing. Testing that has not been done. If Core were to implement bigger blocks, the whole discussion (which, IMHO ,has become a waste of time) would not be taking place.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
Okay then change BIP101 so that the max block size doubles every 2.5 years. Problem solved.

Plus the change in timeframe is only the short term trend which is hardly an indication of what will happen between now and the next 20 years.
No, this does not solve anything. Basically if we had a minimum and maximum within a possible projection, while speculating, Gavin would opt for a choice near the maximum. We can not predict the future and the more we try to predict (more time, e.g. years) the more we are wrong.
If for some reason it starts to get too expensive to run a full node and blocks are not filling up then increases of the maximum block sizes can be delayed and each increase in the max block size can be less then double. As a rough approximation, I think it will be unlikely for it to become prohibitively expensive to run a full node for small sized businesses.
Pieter Wuille actually made a better suggestion (17.7% increase per year). However, this is not that good if we start with a 1 MB limit because we would reach a maximum of 8 MB in 2030. It would be interesting if we had a initial 8 MB limit and a 17.7% yearly increase.
I think that would probably be too small of an increase, especially if Bitcoin is going to gain widespread adoption.
Regardless if Bitcoin is to remain decentralized the max block size needs to increase, and it needs to increase a lot over time. Otherwise it will become too expensive to use and people will be forced to either use the traditional banking system or centralized systems like LN and side chains. There is no way around this. There is a good chance that it might get more expensive to run a full node.
Actually I disagree, and so does Gavin (among other people). Blockchain systems do not scale properly, nor were they designed to do so. We can't just infinitely increase the block size, this will just lead to other problems. We need other solutions that are going to be built on top of the blockchain or that are going to work completely off-chain.
I agree that over the long term, there will likely be more off-chain uses for Bitcoin then there are now (one example of this would be someone prepaying a weeks worth of coffee onto a gift card and the user would use the gift card every day until they need to add additional funds to such card). However the max block size does need to increase a lot in order for Bitcoin to reach any level of mass adoption. Bitcoin was designed to be scalable, although it made little sense when Bitcoin was very new to have very large blocks because Bitcoin was not being used that much and because the cost of storage/the cost of bandwidth was higher then it is now.


Demonstration of the lack of scalability with Bitcoin:
At 1 MB per block, Bitcoin has a average of ~3 transactions per seconds (see D&T thread). Visa has an average of 2,000 tps (a maximum of 56,000).  Just to reach the average that Visa handles (not the maximum, nor peak times) everyday we would need ~666.6MB blocks right now.
Just for reference, we would need ~18.6666 GB blocks to be able to process the same amount of transactions that Visa can.
When Visa processes a transaction, they most likely need to transmit and store more data in their own database then is transmitted/stored when a 3 input, 2 output transaction is confirmed on the blockchain. Visa also needs to store information about each transaction in it's database for a long time (although not forever), it also most likely needs to store failed/denied transaction in it's database for a long time (which is not the case for Bitcoin).

Visa does need to keep a number of backups of all of their transactions (although they probably do not keep thousands of backups), and they do need to transmit each transactions a number of times, including to the issuing bank, which also would need to keep a number of backups and themselves will need to transmit each transaction they receive a number of times.

Right now Bitcoin is far from the level of adoption that Visa has, so there is no need to have a 600 MB (or a 19 GB) max block size now. Although hopefully it's adoption level will increase substantially over time and such a maximum block size will be necessary.


Tl;dr:
Bitcoin can't scale well on its own. We need to do everything, i.e. increase the block size, implement sidechains, the lightning network, payment channels. Everything.
I am glad that you agree on the larger block sizes. I am unsure about the others though. I do support a small amount of off chain transactions, and although I do not drink coffee, I would trust Starbucks with the ~$20 or so that I would need to send them each week in order to buy a cup of coffee every day.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I didn't bother reading this thread at all.

Let me just say:

Proofs used to reconcile between mainchain and sidechains compete with normal transactions for block space. Blockstream would be one of the main entity to benefit from bigger block size.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
btw, for those who think "blocks arent filling up"... I just happened to
have blockchain.info open on another tab and hit refresh.  
3 out of last 6 blocks are over 900kb, and 5 out of 6 more than half full.
Just sayin.
People voting with their wallets. Looking at market price there is no need to increase block size limit because bitcoin will soon not be used at all.
Just sayin.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
btw, for those who think "blocks arent filling up"... I just happened to
have blockchain.info open on another tab and hit refresh.  
3 out of last 6 blocks are over 900kb, and 5 out of 6 more than half full.
Just sayin.

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Where such information? It's just a suggestion to conduct discussions or reliable information?
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
If we believe in consensus, instead of turning Bitcoin into a mindless machine, then we should be able to reach it consistently when the need arises.
Doing it every 4 years seems like a reasonable exercise, so that we remember how to stay vigilant. That's why I advocate one-off fork with 8Mb hard cap.
hero member
Activity: 1568
Merit: 507
Even more important, how will miners make money?

If they will be getting the transaction fees what's the incentive to mine?

change to proof of stake screw the miners
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
Okay then change BIP101 so that the max block size doubles every 2.5 years. Problem solved.

Plus the change in timeframe is only the short term trend which is hardly an indication of what will happen between now and the next 20 years.
No, this does not solve anything. Basically if we had a minimum and maximum within a possible projection, while speculating, Gavin would opt for a choice near the maximum. We can not predict the future and the more we try to predict (more time, e.g. years) the more we are wrong.
Pieter Wuille actually made a better suggestion (17.7% increase per year). However, this is not that good if we start with a 1 MB limit because we would reach a maximum of 8 MB in 2030. It would be interesting if we had a initial 8 MB limit and a 17.7% yearly increase.

Regardless if Bitcoin is to remain decentralized the max block size needs to increase, and it needs to increase a lot over time. Otherwise it will become too expensive to use and people will be forced to either use the traditional banking system or centralized systems like LN and side chains. There is no way around this. There is a good chance that it might get more expensive to run a full node.
Actually I disagree, and so does Gavin (among other people). Blockchain systems do not scale properly, nor were they designed to do so. We can't just infinitely increase the block size, this will just lead to other problems. We need other solutions that are going to be built on top of the blockchain or that are going to work completely off-chain.


Demonstration of the lack of scalability with Bitcoin:
At 1 MB per block, Bitcoin has a average of ~3 transactions per seconds (see D&T thread). Visa has an average of 2,000 tps (a maximum of 56,000).  Just to reach the average that Visa handles (not the maximum, nor peak times) everyday we would need ~666.6MB blocks right now.
Just for reference, we would need ~18.6666 GB blocks to be able to process the same amount of transactions that Visa can.


Tl;dr:
Bitcoin can't scale well on its own. We need to do everything, i.e. increase the block size, implement sidechains, the lightning network, payment channels. Everything.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
blocks sometimes do get filled up
bullshit!!!!!!! they never get filled! even with the spam from coinwallet.eu!
i don't scratch if i dont have an itch! Wink
except for the one just now.



jonald can't count as high as 1024 apparently

Carlton!  My main man.

I thought you were done responding to me?

974/1024 ..thats a 95% full block.  
Obviously that's close enough for the purpose
of this conversation as the essense of the issue is running up
against the limit, which is happening sometimes as
I mentioned.
 
@ onemorexmr:  Please ignore the troll (hdbuck).

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 509
I prefer Zakir over Muhammed when mentioning me!
The only reason that BIP101 is bad is that there is the possibility that it will be attempted to be implemented without consensus. There is no real reason why the network would not be able to support 8MB blocks on a technical basis and Moores law would imply that technology will advance quickly enough so that the network will continue to be able to support the increasingly large max block size and if it doesn't then then Bitcoin can be formed again.
Moore's law? It looks like you aren't up to date with that one.
Quote
Intel confirmed in 2015 that the pace of advancement has slowed, starting at the 22 nm node around 2012 and continuing at 14 nm. Brian Krzanich, CEO of Intel, announced that “our cadence today is closer to two and a half years than two.
It is going to get worse from here, until the transition to something entirely new. The growth factor in BIP 101 is not sustainable and people should be aware of this. That's one of the main problems.
Okay then change BIP101 so that the max block size doubles every 2.5 years. Problem solved.

Plus the change in timeframe is only the short term trend which is hardly an indication of what will happen between now and the next 20 years.

Regardless if Bitcoin is to remain decentralized the max block size needs to increase, and it needs to increase a lot over time. Otherwise it will become too expensive to use and people will be forced to either use the traditional banking system or centralized systems like LN and side chains. There is no way around this. There is a good chance that it might get more expensive to run a full node.

Doubling maximum block size every X years is not a good idea which is what BIP 101 is about though in it X is 2. Even though it is dynamic increase, maximum block size increase should depend on more/better factors.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251

my argument is you are all pathologically crippled noobs, if not professional shills with the not-so-hidden agenda of destroying bitcoin.



judging from your post history we share the same vision for bitcoin.
its just that you think core is better and i think xt is.

is that really enough for you to start fighting like this?
do you realize that you actually harm your cause by acting this way?

i think you are well-informed. so why dont you share your experience?

and i am definitely not a shill and not crippled. i just say what i think.
and your opinion gets more and more less important to me - ONLY because of the way you act.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002


Right but should we jump from 1 MB to 8 MB?
 

I preferred Gavin's original proposal of 20 MB.



you bet you are. N00b.

grow up.
"protecting your investment" by insulting anybody is laughable.
if you have a real argument tell it or gtfo.


my argument is you are all pathologically crippled noobs, if not professional shills with the not-so-hidden agenda of destroying bitcoin.

hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500


Right but should we jump from 1 MB to 8 MB?
 

I preferred Gavin's original proposal of 20 MB.



you bet you are. N00b.

grow up.
"protecting your investment" by insulting anybody is laughable.
if you have a real argument tell it or gtfo.

oh yeah! from 1mb jump to 20 mb! not even 2mb or 4mb...
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 251


Right but should we jump from 1 MB to 8 MB?
 

I preferred Gavin's original proposal of 20 MB.



you bet you are. N00b.

grow up.
"protecting your investment" by insulting anybody is laughable.
if you have a real argument tell it or gtfo.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
blocks sometimes do get filled up
bullshit!!!!!!! they never get filled! even with the spam from coinwallet.eu!
i don't scratch if i dont have an itch! Wink
except for the one just now.



jonald can't count as high as 1024 apparently
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002


Right but should we jump from 1 MB to 8 MB?
 

I preferred Gavin's original proposal of 20 MB.



you bet you are. N00b.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
The only reason that BIP101 is bad is that there is the possibility that it will be attempted to be implemented without consensus. There is no real reason why the network would not be able to support 8MB blocks on a technical basis and Moores law would imply that technology will advance quickly enough so that the network will continue to be able to support the increasingly large max block size and if it doesn't then then Bitcoin can be formed again.
Moore's law? It looks like you aren't up to date with that one.
Quote
Intel confirmed in 2015 that the pace of advancement has slowed, starting at the 22 nm node around 2012 and continuing at 14 nm. Brian Krzanich, CEO of Intel, announced that “our cadence today is closer to two and a half years than two.
It is going to get worse from here, until the transition to something entirely new. The growth factor in BIP 101 is not sustainable and people should be aware of this. That's one of the main problems.
Okay then change BIP101 so that the max block size doubles every 2.5 years. Problem solved.

Plus the change in timeframe is only the short term trend which is hardly an indication of what will happen between now and the next 20 years.

Regardless if Bitcoin is to remain decentralized the max block size needs to increase, and it needs to increase a lot over time. Otherwise it will become too expensive to use and people will be forced to either use the traditional banking system or centralized systems like LN and side chains. There is no way around this. There is a good chance that it might get more expensive to run a full node.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


Right but should we jump from 1 MB to 8 MB?
 

I preferred Gavin's original proposal of 20 MB.

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