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Topic: Brainstorming: On chain decentralized exchange possible on Bitcoin Blockchain? (Read 501 times)

ABCbits

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Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 11:28:38 PM

Like Electrum light wallets? Not like full nodes?

AFAIK it's closer to Electrum SPV

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 11:28:38 PM

I believe some developers are into something again, with promises of on-chain scaling of a decentralized network, with low/no fees/cost to the network through "sharding". They will sell it as scaling-out, when in fact it scales the network in.

There WILL be centralization with more efficiency. No one can bend the laws of Physics.

Most likely yes, but it's different story.

ABCbits

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 05:49:23 AM

If I run a "sharding-node", do I trust the other "sharding-nodes" of the other shard, instead of the consensus itself?

Sharding node still verify all block header belongs to another shard.

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 05:49:23 AM

Would it be considered sharding if the miners are required to have all the blocks?

I have yet to research about mining on sharding blockchain, but blockchain which uses blockchain still have a type of node which store and verify all shard.

ABCbits

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Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 27, 2020, 06:30:46 AM

8 months on after OP, the Ethereum network has also been suffering to that thing that the Ethereans has been criticizing Bitcoin for. Their solution, sharding, is more complexity, but for small, and unsure benefit.

you mean the huge transaction fees? that's not new for ethereum. it has always had a much worse scaling issue than bitcoin. it was jut not noticeable as much because unlike bitcoin it is not under magnifying glass and of course its usage is far less than bitcoin's. but every now and then with a small surge of token scams (like the DEFI these days) it shoots up.

That's the price of wanting doing and storing everything you could on blockchain.

Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM

i don't think sharding would change anything about fees though. it would only make syncing and running a full node easier (even though more centralized).

When it's far cheaper to run sharding node, i'm sure ETH community will agree to increase block gas limit (which determine block size limit).

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: ABCbits on September 29, 2020, 04:11:53 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 11:28:38 PM

Like Electrum light wallets? Not like full nodes?

AFAIK it's closer to Electrum SPV

Which SPVs are not actually part of the network, actually trusts the nodes they are connected to. Are "sharded cryptocurrency networks" more open to Sybil Attacks?

I believe all the added complications, and risks, for the same benefit that can be developed in off-chain layered networks.

BrewMaster

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on September 27, 2020, 01:02:15 PM

PS: In the blockchair I could not find any data which shows fees analysis. Which corner it is hiding?

sorry for late response. it is a bit hidden under their charts link that can be found at the bottom of the page. or use the link by adding the coin name and the word charts like this (/coinnamse/charts) to get it for each coin. here is the direct link for ETH fee charts:
https://blockchair.com/ethereum/charts/average-transaction-fee-eth

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: ABCbits on September 28, 2020, 06:02:48 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 05:49:23 AM

If I run a "sharding-node", do I trust the other "sharding-nodes" of the other shard, instead of the consensus itself?

Sharding node still verify all block header belongs to another shard.

Like Electrum light wallets? Not like full nodes?

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 28, 2020, 05:49:23 AM

Would it be considered sharding if the miners are required to have all the blocks?

I have yet to research about mining on sharding blockchain, but blockchain which uses blockchain still have a type of node which store and verify all shard.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: ABCbits on September 28, 2020, 05:35:22 AM

Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 27, 2020, 06:30:46 AM

That's the price of wanting doing and storing everything you could on blockchain.

Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM

i don't think sharding would change anything about fees though. it would only make syncing and running a full node easier (even though more centralized).

When it's far cheaper to run sharding node, i'm sure ETH community will agree to increase block gas limit (which determine block size limit).

If I run a "sharding-node", do I trust the other "sharding-nodes" of the other shard, instead of the consensus itself?

Would it be considered sharding if the miners are required to have all the blocks?

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 27, 2020, 06:30:46 AM

you mean the huge transaction fees? that's not new for ethereum. it has always had a much worse scaling issue than bitcoin. it was jut not noticeable as much because unlike bitcoin it is not under magnifying glass and of course its usage is far less than bitcoin's. but every now and then with a small surge of token scams (like the DEFI these days) it shoots up.

Yes, plus the blockchain-bloat, making it hard to run an actual full node.

Quote

i don't think sharding would change anything about fees though. it would only make syncing and running a full node easier (even though more centralized).

I have been debating that point. It's added complexity, added risk, just for a small benefit.

Plus if the miners a required to have all the blocks, that's not sharding.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on September 27, 2020, 10:58:21 AM

There is a lot you can do with Etherium, but the problem is that it is all on chain, which is really not scalable. Think of all the times bitcoin fees have spiked, and multiple that times 100 (or more) because of all the different types of things that can cause ETH fees to spike.

Quote from: Last of the V8s on September 22, 2020, 02:00:17 AM

does not make sense to have an order book on a blockchain
former is inconstant, latter immutable

Quote from: pooya87 on September 22, 2020, 02:26:26 AM

Quote from: Last of the V8s on September 22, 2020, 02:00:17 AM

does not make sense to have an order book on a blockchain
former is inconstant, latter immutable

the order-book itself is not stored on the blockchain, there is no reason for that. it can be anywhere because there is no reason for it to even be stored. the contract or the script which is the executed order or the trade is stored on the blockchain.

Quote from: Last of the V8s on September 22, 2020, 02:45:02 AM

good but then the exchange isn't decentralised

It is not realistic to keep every bid/ask on the blockchain. That is too many transactions, and waiting 10 minutes (on average) to submit a bid or an ask is not going to attract any users. I don't think any of the existing DEXs keep their orderbook on the blockchain, they only use the blockchain for settlement.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 11:18:42 AM

well the situation has been spiraling out of control as ETH is on a bad path. so each cycle when the scam hypes grow in number the fee situation becomes a little worse. otherwise the chart (or the one on blockchair which is better) shows this common occurrence clearly.

I never paid much attention on how ETH fees calculation works. Unlike bitcoin with ETH I have always used the suggested fees the wallet does and very few times I have used ETH so may be I will not talk much about it.

PS: In the blockchair I could not find any data which shows fees analysis. Which corner it is hiding?

BrewMaster

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on September 27, 2020, 10:58:21 AM

I was looking for historical fees for ETH and it seems indeed the fees are way to high then anytime.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o

Quote from: BrewMaster on September 27, 2020, 09:24:39 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 27, 2020, 06:30:46 AM

I was looking for historical fees for ETH and it seems indeed the fees are way to high then anytime.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-transactionfees.html

You are right about other things like, unlike bitcoin ETH is not really in much of use so the circulation is less too.

BrewMaster

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on September 27, 2020, 06:30:46 AM

Wind_FURY

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d5000

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Decentralization Maximalist

Well there are some options already:

Atomic DEX - while not a Bitcoin-exclusive project, it uses Bitcoin Script for atomic swaps like @squatter showed them above, and an additional P2P network for order matching. In my opinion, an underrated project (I have started a thread about it here), even if it may seem questionable that they charge fees.

Omni, which was the first DEX ever and already exists since 2014, is also using pure Bitcoin technology. It can't exchange currencies on other blockchains but only Bitcoin-based Omni tokens, (like the original TetherUSD). But always take into account that "Ethereum DEXes" like Uniswap also only can exchange Ethereum-based tokens.

One very interesting aspect of Omni is OmniBOLT which is a work-in-progress solution to transfer Omni tokens via Lightning. This would be the "ultimate solution" for token transfer and exchange.

There is also Counterparty which was a bit "forgotten" lately and is basically something very similar to Omni.

And there are more obscure projects like OpenAssets (which is outdated) and PeerAssets, all based on pure Bitcoin script (even if the latter was designed for Peercoin).

BrewMaster

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Quote from: ?? on ??

It could be more expensive to run node for sidechain if:
1. It has bigger block size limit or lower block time
2. It uses more "expensive" cryptography, such as zero-knowledge proof
3. It's designed to store all kinds of data

true but even if it costs "a lot" to run such a node it won't be and can not be close to costing millions to run it otherwise it won't work.
besides, unlike bitcoin's blockchain that needs to store the history of all transactions, such sidechain doesn't have to store the history of all trades so it won't need to store that much data (if any since the trade itself doesn't have to be recorded in my opinion).

BrewMaster

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Quote from: NotATether on September 22, 2020, 07:09:09 AM

running a bitcoin full node doesn't cost anywhere near millions so why should a running a node on side chain cost that much money? besides what you are suggesting is centralization and if that is the only solution then we are better off using the existing centralized exchanges instead.

NotATether

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

I see a big problem blocking this from being launched, and that is funding for nodes to run on whatever sidehain they make. It could be as simple as giving universities money to host their own nodes, if you need to get a lot of nodes up quickly controlled by different parties without an agenda. But who is going to spend millions to prop up a sidechain like that?

Even LN doesn't have enough nodes running to make a full scale network (I'll probaby end up helping out running one myself if I can obtain a dedicated host), but at least they have nodes to start with, so let's piggyback on the sidechain that made the most progress.

pooya87

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Quote from: Last of the V8s on September 22, 2020, 02:45:02 AM

good but then the exchange isn't decentralised

why?!! there is no centralized authority or a middle man involved. it can easily happen peer to peer and then settled on bitcoin chain.
i don't see how you see any traces of centralization in this.

Last of the V8s

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Be a bank

good but then the exchange isn't decentralised