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Topic: Breaking news: Poland confiscates private pension funds - page 2. (Read 8184 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
political affiliation and ass kissing.

Right, and what do you think happens in the management of these companies? I'm not here to defend the political bureaucracy here, but cooperate bureaucracy isn't better either.
The "Invisible hand of the free market" is the same Bullshit as the "Representative Democracy"

Bureaucracy always leads to the same conclusion and there is no point in substituting one form for the other, they're all bad.
I think there is only one effective mechanism to counteract it: De-urbanisation. I know that sounds inconvenient...
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Insurance companies are big centralized operations full of bureaucrats. They have to please their shareholders which are after profits coming out of the depositors pockets.

Having to please shareholders is a very cool thing. It rewards efficiency and punishes incompetence unlike in the state run environment where people are appointed based on political affiliation and ass kissing.
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
They just converted official government debt into unfunded liabilities. Unfunded liabilities is just another form of debt, it's just off the books.

US federal government unfunded liabilities are around 70 - 200 trillion USD. Total federal debt is then 30-70 times federal tax revenue (2.8 trillion USD).

Europe is even worse. It's the biggest ponzi scheme in all human history.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Insurance companies are big centralized operations full of bureaucrats. They have to please their shareholders which are after profits coming out of the depositors pockets.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You're wrong actually because all state run pension funds are nothing but ponzi schemes. In the end the people get totally screwed. In a state run pension fund no money actually exists, money is paid as new tax money comes in. By contrast in a private pension fund money is actually there, invested in different company shares, bonds, equity and such.

It's HUGE difference!

Yeah, sure, that can happen. But it's not as black and white as that. In this case particularly, for the time being, there are some sort of real assets that exist. State run pensions aren't necessarily paid just out of taxes. Here's an example: http://www.government.se/sb/d/15473/a/183496. Sure, they could get looted down the track, but that's not inherent in the fact that it is state run.

Not sure if its inherently wiser to put trust in a large private financial institution to hold onto people's money and look after their best interest over several decades over a state run one, personally. There's certainly been no lack of private funds where the money somehow disappears into somebody's pocket.

Since when are we all about cheering for large private financial institutions, anyway? Fuck them in their profit motive, parasitic faces I say.

Worth adding though, the way things are going I wouldn't be putting too much stock in either long term.


I trust the private sector WAY more than any government run operation. You can see this in real world. Whatever government touches turns to shit because big centralized operations are doomed to failure from the very start and gov is just that, one big centralized operation. This is why big companies need to be broken into smaller piece when they become too big. They can't function properly anymore.

Companies need to stay competitive and liquid and in order to do that they have to please consumers or pension fund holders in our case. Either that or they go out of business. The government, however, when it runs out of money, instead of defaulting just takes some more by force at the expense of the people.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
You're wrong actually because all state run pension funds are nothing but ponzi schemes. In the end the people get totally screwed. In a state run pension fund no money actually exists, money is paid as new tax money comes in. By contrast in a private pension fund money is actually there, invested in different company shares, bonds, equity and such.

It's HUGE difference!

Yeah, sure, that can happen. But it's not as black and white as that. In this case particularly, for the time being, there are some sort of real assets that exist. State run pensions aren't necessarily paid just out of taxes. Here's an example: http://www.government.se/sb/d/15473/a/183496. Sure, they could get looted down the track, but that's not inherent in the fact that it is state run.

Not sure if its inherently wiser to put trust in a large private financial institution to hold onto people's money and look after their best interest over several decades over a state run one, personally. There's certainly been no lack of private funds where the money somehow disappears into somebody's pocket.

Since when are we all about cheering for large private financial institutions, anyway? Fuck them in their profit motive, parasitic faces I say.

Worth adding though, the way things are going I wouldn't be putting too much stock in either long term.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.

Wow A post with shot of common sense in the Economics forum, I'm shocked. Shocked

This is the reason why world economy is so messed up because most people have this guy's "common sense". Common sense is not so common these days or not what it used to be.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.

You're wrong actually because all state run pension funds are nothing but ponzi schemes. In the end the people get totally screwed. In a state run pension fund no money actually exists, money is paid as new tax money comes in. By contrast in a private pension fund money is actually there, invested in different company shares, bonds, equity and such.

It's HUGE difference!
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.

Wow A post with shot of common sense in the Economics forum, I'm shocked. Shocked
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
You've wrote first "fake" then edited with new text.
I misinterpreted. I was thinking they confiskated private money, while it wasn't.

That's difference between Cyprus.

Yeah. This is not at all the same as Cyprus. Not at all.

Cyprus = state takes private money for itself.

Poland = state takes pension money from private pension funds who manage it on behalf of private individuals so that it will be managed by a state institution instead. On behalf of the private individuals.

Ok, if you've got an anti-statist thing going on ideologically, sure ok, you might see this as a problem. But there's no sense in which the money has been taken from the people who it actually belongs to ie. the people who are supposed to get paid out by the pension.

Sure, that could happen later. But that's not what's happened here.
newbie
Activity: 53
Merit: 0
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 09/06/2013 14:50 -0400

someone was watching fight club
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
I think that most people just did like I did: Ignored the pension found [let the government decide "randomly"] and continued with their life.
I don't get any reports from my bank about my pension found. I don't even remember which found was selected for me. I guess that's the reality of 99% people.
Only people interested in economics [1%? Less?] even understand what is going on.

Very true, about 10 years ago I don't understand at all those reports and suggestions of fund selection from state run pension fund. But after I seeing my mother have to work more years and receive less pension than government promised 15 years ago. I start to save in private equities and bitcoins, totally ignore those letters from government pension funds

Same, most of the people don't need to understand the ponzi scheme nature of pension fund, but if they see that their parents get less paid in pension, they will simply stop to save in those funds and hopefully they will move their savings into bitcoin  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
This is going to happen sooner or later with a debt based fiat money system. Since the old people won't fight, they are the first target of confiscation. Currently many other governments take another route: Extend the retirement age to compensate for the deficit

Just like long term saving account, pension fund is also some kind of large scale ponzi scheme, but due to its very long time frame, the scheme will only collapse after 1-2 generations
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
All the regimes are doing this. They tuneled and sold under price many huge corporations here and just from this year VAT rose to 21 % so we are already 2 % over Germany.

No matter their efforts, looking at debt rise graph, I am pretty much sure most of the states in Europe will bancrupt in next decade. Don't think western countries are all right, their debt is rising in huge amounts as well, jsut nobody is yeeling, because they cannot go bancrupt, right? Well, we'll see…
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Small Red and Bad
Poland has been living on credit for years. For starters they started selling/closing (mainly shipyards, foundries and sugar factories)  causing bankrupcy of their suppliers and increased unemployment. When they needed money they just borrowed from the EU. Few years ago they found out everything is going to hell as a large number of unemployed left the country and nobody is working for future pensions. So now they are trying to steal as much as they can to keep afloat. First they taxed the bank investments and lowered interest rates, then increased VAT tax to 23% and minimal pension age to 67 and finally stole the investment funds.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
"They say the old system effectively made Polish public debt appear higher than it really is."

That is some of the most comical double think I think I've ever heard. Imagine a conventional robber using this excuse in a courtroom.
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
The difference between theft from OFE and Cyprus bank robbery is huge.

- In Cyprus people logged into their banks and saw their money being confiscated. That caused MASSIVE panic.
- In Poland our pension founds are being stolen. No one will realize it until after 10-20 years. People won't care.

Also, knowing the media coverage in my awful country no one will know about it, except for the people that are interested in economy. Another huge contrast to logging into bank and seeing one zero less.

I vote: Event neutral for the price.

It still has huge impact. Our government just wanted to push all employees into similar system. Now when everybody sees what happens to our neighbours - and I am 100% positive this would happen here as well (as all the governments are just increasing the debt and sooner rather than later they will run out of money) - nobody will let that happen here.

Anyway, anybody arround believe there will be any pensions in 10 years in Europe? Most of the governments will be long bancrupt by that time.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Quote
I agree. This money is not private. If I can't spend or withdraw them, it's not my money.
And if it's not my money I simply don't care.

Haha. Following this logic, those who have money in trust funds they can't touch until they turn certain age are not the owners of that money. Of course it's your money just that you can't take it whenever you wish. You are probably young and don't give a shit. Others who are closer to their retirement age won't feel the same. Even young people have a parent who's probably retired or close to retirement who's getting royally screwed by this move.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
It seems Bitcoin has just got much more popular in Poland. Anti-fragile, bitches!

If the same happens to the real money laying around at Gox we'll see how "anti-fragile" Butts really are.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye
Too much drama. This isn't bullish. I'm from Poland. That cash was lost anyway coz of fuc*ing obligatory social insurance contributions and non-entrepreneurs officials. None here believe in pension after 67 years of working.

You don't get to retire until you are 85 years old?
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