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Topic: BSV subforum - page 2. (Read 935 times)

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
September 24, 2022, 09:01:56 AM
#36
Though it's really hard to overcome Gavin's continued unwillingness to retract his endorsement-- I think doing so requires enough of everyone else to sign on to make it clear that he's alone (or close to it).

Has anyone tried authoring an open letter to Gavin, requesting that he makes a revised statement?  And then members of the community could sign it.  I'd imagine we'd get quite a few signatories.  That would be a start, at least.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
September 24, 2022, 05:21:22 AM
#35
The moderator could be anonymous, if he is chosen only by theymos and creates a fresh account only for the mod purposes.
If theymos knows who it is, that won't protect them if theymos gets subpoenaed, right? Considering the level of shitfuckery going on, that would be a real risk.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 3150
₿uy / $ell ..oeleo ;(
September 24, 2022, 04:59:27 AM
#34
The moderator could be anonymous, if he is chosen only by theymos and creates a fresh account only for the mod purposes.


legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
September 24, 2022, 04:42:20 AM
#33
Who's going to moderate it?
I was nominated, but don't want to find myself on the DOXing end of a BS lawsuit. And it's not a subject I would enjoy spending a lot of time on.

To protect against BS lawsuits, it would be good if the Mod has always used Tor.

Less people would join though, mainly because
1. You can't see the discussion without register/join. Some people would like to see what's going on before decide to register or join.
For the same reason, a .onion forum won't get the exposure it deserves.
legendary
Activity: 2240
Merit: 3150
₿uy / $ell ..oeleo ;(
September 23, 2022, 06:08:39 PM
#32
I agree!
Who's going to moderate it?
I followed very closely the case with hodlonaut and the main attack is against his privacy. Mr.Wrong does not care about those tweets, he wants to humiliate and doxx every anonymous person who does not agree with his wild statements.
I can't wait to see what the judge will come up with on 8th of October. Basically she will have to decide whether Mr. Wrong is Satoshi or not.

staff
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1610
The Naija & BSFL Sherrif 📛
September 23, 2022, 05:18:34 PM
#31
Despite that, I would still support the idea. Especially because people like gmaxwell have been silenced to speak out outside of the forum. Craig and his cult members are a threat to everything Bitcoin. They have the financial means to support their fraudulent campaigns even in court. It's a danger because they can always find those willing to accept a bribe.     

Yea, since it's coming from gmaxwell, it could be that he has many things to speak out but they could easily be buried when scattered in different parts of the forum.
Coming from Gmaxwell doesn't make it any better even though I supported the sub-forum idea in my first comment here because I've been wanting to learn some of the BV shit myself, I realized that giving him such attention would cause real congestion here, so it would be preferable if the BV shit was buried from the Bitcoin communities. If the OP truly wants to raise awareness, a self-moderated thread would still be beneficial.

It's strange how he keep tracking bitcoin anonymous developers via social media posts.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1081
Goodnight, o_e_l_e_o 🌹
September 23, 2022, 02:50:53 PM
#30
Are there enough threads and topics to warrant a new sub-forum only for the discussion of the BSV fraud? If it's going to have 5-6 threads, there isn't really a need for it. If we remember the usual responses when people requested other subs, like for the Lightning Network, mods usually explained that an existing sub-forum would need to be flooded with that particular topic for a new sub to be created. That's not really the case with BSV and craig wrong.

When I saw the title, I was amazed how the topic recieved a great attention within a short period of time. I thought it was one Bitcoin BSV troll who is in the ignore list of many users that created it. Not until I checked the OP.
I am also of the opinion that creating a sub forum just for exposure of fraud may give more credence to the fraud and could turn the board to a war zone for bitcoin believers and BSV believers.


Despite that, I would still support the idea. Especially because people like gmaxwell have been silenced to speak out outside of the forum. Craig and his cult members are a threat to everything Bitcoin. They have the financial means to support their fraudulent campaigns even in court. It's a danger because they can always find those willing to accept a bribe.     

Yea, since it's coming from gmaxwell, it could be that he has many things to speak out but they could easily be buried when scattered in different parts of the forum.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
September 23, 2022, 02:13:03 PM
#29
If Crack pretends his own ShitVork is the real Bitcoin, and if he pretends to be Satoshi, why does he need to claim Satoshi's Bitcoin on the real Bitcoin chain? He can just Fork his own BSV and steal all coins there. These 50 BSV for instance. I'd say the fact that he doesn't do that adds to the evidence that's he is indeed just another con artist.

He doesn't do that because then his motivations would be obvious.  I don't think many BSVers realize that getting his hands on satoshi's coins is his entire goal.  He's not going to risk letting the cat out of the bag early and get stuck with worthless BSV coins and a community that finally sees he's a con artist.  He's going for valuable BTC and the title of satoshi.  If he by some miracle did start winning court cases, his next step would be suing BTC developers and miners in order to force a fork where his coins are unlocked.  That's the goal and he's not taking his eyes off of it for some BSV...
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
September 23, 2022, 06:10:51 AM
#28
As long as it would be for people to know that Craig Wright is not Satoshi.
I've read this statement so many times, and it's ridiculous we have to keep repeating it! LoyceV is not Satoshi. Great, everyone agrees.
I'm also quite disappointed that various courts allow lawsuits that are so obviously fake. Signed messages don't lie.

it should be as a sub-board under Scams or Reputation, not under Bitcoin Discussion or any of the bitcoin centric boards.
I think a sub-board under Scam Accusations suits them.

I tend to look at BSVers as just brainwashed sheep who have fallen for an enigmatic cult leader.
To me, they always feel like flat earthers. They know it's BS, but keep going at it because they love the attention it gets them.



If Crack pretends his own ShitVork is the real Bitcoin, and if he pretends to be Satoshi, why does he need to claim Satoshi's Bitcoin on the real Bitcoin chain? He can just Fork his own BSV and steal all coins there. These 50 BSV for instance. I'd say the fact that he doesn't do that adds to the evidence that's he is indeed just another con artist.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
September 23, 2022, 05:55:23 AM
#27
Be careful what you wish for.  Giving BSV a platform here instead of continuing to keep the status quo would be quite a change of direction.  Would then Bitcoin Cash also deserve it's own subforum?  If your answer is, "No, because Roger isn't attacking people in the community."  Then maybe you should rethink your position.  This is a forum that doesn't moderate obvious scams because they don't want to pick and choose.  Picking and choosing a Bitcoin fork to give it's own subforum seems rather unlikely to me.  No matter who calls for it.


Why not make/start a Discord server for Bitcointalk, and all community members who wants to join can join and discuss any Faketoshi investigations or leads there, then open a pinned topic in Bitcointalk, but locked, to post the most important updates and information from the Discord server.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 3060
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
September 23, 2022, 03:48:08 AM
#26
Something absolutely needs to be done.  If not a subforum, I'd settle for a sticky at the top of every single forum and subforum containing the text:

Craig Wright is a proven liar, charlatan and identity thief.  SV is a worthless scamcoin.  Anyone who supports either is scum, bereft of human decency.

Followed by all the documented evidence of Wright's forgeries and lies.

Given that Craig manages to track down and sue anonymous people for a tweet don't you think that would be a terrible idea? You'd be preaching to the choir here anyway.

As far as BitCoinDream's comments go-- the "ignore it and hope it goes away" approach is what the Bitcoin community adopted previously.  It's been a disaster.  Go plug in Satoshi or Craig Wright into google news.  He already controls the media narrative.  His representatives appear to be taking as many (if  not more!) meetings with heads of state to speak about "Bitcoin",  his story with a minor amount of tempering is usually what's being told by the press.  Adding to it that there are bitcoiners fighting back wouldn't help them-- they're already on the way to a false consensus that no one seriously opposes them.


I don't think he was saying ignore it and it'll go away, just that a sub board probably isn't the right way to go about it. I think we can all agree that ignoring Craig would be a bad idea as Craig is going nowhere. The louder people are calling him out the better because he will manage to convince other people and outlets along the way if people just sit back and leave him to his scam but I don't think there's much we can do here as it's elsewhere where he's doing the damage.


All that said, your alternative suggestion is mostly what I'd been thinking before making the post--  though a big problem with that kind of diffuse response is that it's not good for bringing more participants into Bitcointalk who are primarily interest in dealing with the con because they threads will be lost in a sea of stuff they aren't interested in.  I've found here that when some wright apologist or BSV promoter wades into a thread on BCT it's not uncommon that the arguments against them end up close to 1:1 instead of many against one, with the other thread participants just irritated that you're helping the troll take things offtopic by debunking them.  I can tell you first hand that fighting misinformation 1:1 against a paid shill or a dedicated cultist feels rather sisyphean, while many against one feels like a nice game of golf.   When you're 1:1 they keep diverting the substantive discussion to making it all about you personally.

You - or whoever starts the thread(s) - could choose to self-moderate it rather than argue with trolls.


It's obviously hitting him hard, if you look at pictures of him now vs a few years ago especially when he's not sussed up for the camera, he looks like he's in his 70s now.

I'd say he looks his age - late 40s early 50s. I'm sure the stress of it all is weighing on him but he doesn't really show it, at least not publicly. I cannot imagine living a life under so many lies but maybe charlatans and fantasists or even sociopaths aren't effected the way normal people would be. He probably has to watch his back everywhere he goes for various reasons. I'm also sure he knows it's only a matter of time before the law catches up to him not to mention how much are his benefactors going to take before they pull the plug? But maybe they're already in too deep and have to see it out until the end if they hope to recoup any money.

Last we hear their criminal investigation was still ongoing.  It sounds like they're similar to US federal prosecutions-- they take their sweet time.  There was recently someone convinced of some similar rebate fraud in AU, and their fraud took place a decade before they were charged.  Wright is coming up on a similar timeframe.   Everyone of of these dumb court cases also ends up with him making claims and exposing information that should make things easier for the criminal prosecution.

So I'm hopeful there, but at the same time-- the ATO is going to chase their own interests and so we can't count on them to protect the public at large.

I agree that the only thing which will actually stop him is criminal charges... but for our purposes we don't really need him to stop:  he just has to be discredited to the point where he can be ignored and where he isn't suckering in newbies (esp governments) at a rate much greater than other bitcoin-attacking scamcoiners.

He's already widely discredited on everything but that doesn't stop him. I think him being charged or at least arrested will be the best thing that can happen. Him being tied up in a court case where his very freedom is on the line can't be ignored and will probably put the brakes on all his other court cases. If he can still weaponise the courts and convince others along the way then he won't stop until he's behind bars. It doesn't matter if he himself loses in court in his civil cases because he miraculously manages to find a way to spin it into a win regardless and has even stated that if something is not found in his favour he won't accept the verdict anyway so you really can't beat him here.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
September 23, 2022, 03:43:47 AM
#25
Are there enough threads and topics to warrant a new sub-forum only for the discussion of the BSV fraud? If it's going to have 5-6 threads, there isn't really a need for it. If we remember the usual responses when people requested other subs, like for the Lightning Network, mods usually explained that an existing sub-forum would need to be flooded with that particular topic for a new sub to be created. That's not really the case with BSV and craig wrong.

Despite that, I would still support the idea. Especially because people like gmaxwell have been silenced to speak out outside of the forum. Craig and his cult members are a threat to everything Bitcoin. They have the financial means to support their fraudulent campaigns even in court. It's a danger because they can always find those willing to accept a bribe.     
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
September 23, 2022, 03:43:27 AM
#24
When I first saw the topic of this thread I was scared because i first thought the idea was to support BSV but when I read the OP page I understand it was to expose Craig Wright and his team's false activities and also save newbies from being deceived by their lies.

That will only work if most newbies actually go to the board which I don't see happening. I see it being infested by BSV trolls instead. The actual newbies are to be found in other places off this site.
copper member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1901
Amazon Prime Member #7
September 23, 2022, 12:00:27 AM
#23
Perhaps my proposal could be modified somewhat.

The difference between potentially libelous statements and opinions are small. Truth is a defense to a libel lawsuit.

Many forum members, I fear will make potentially libelous statements in the sub you describe. Many forum members also very much value their privacy, but I do not doubt that Theymos has information that could lead to someone learning many forum members IRL identity with additional information, for example after talking to the persons ISP. This is important because the forum could be subjected to court actions involving the disclosure of this type of information to CSW, and this may lead to the doxing of forum members who wish to remain anonymous via court filings. The forum could fight these court actions, as can the forum member who may hypothetically CSW may try to identify, but it would be costly and complex for both.

Statements made to a lawyer who represents you are generally protected by attorney client privilege. An attorney who is making statements on behalf of a client can also craft the statements carefully to avoid making the statement potentially libelous, for example by using qualifiers such as “my client believes…”, “based on documents my client has seen…”, “it is the opinion of my client…”, etc. This would reduce the risk that those who find/expose information will be revealed.

Further, once CSW lost once in court, the evidence presented in that case is public information and others subjected to similar court actions can easily use that information.

The above is in addition to my very serious concerns about the forum taking a stance on issues related to CSW. While it is my personal belief that CSW is a fraudster, and I believe this is a reasonable belief, i would rather the forum not take this position as an institution, and I feel like creating this sub would be taking this stance.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
September 22, 2022, 11:26:05 PM
#22
Be careful what you wish for.  Giving BSV a platform here instead of continuing to keep the status quo would be quite a change of direction.  Would then Bitcoin Cash also deserve it's own subforum?  If your answer is, "No, because Roger isn't attacking people in the community."  Then maybe you should rethink your position.  This is a forum that doesn't moderate obvious scams because they don't want to pick and choose.  Picking and choosing a Bitcoin fork to give it's own subforum seems rather unlikely to me.  No matter who calls for it.
member
Activity: 1165
Merit: 78
September 22, 2022, 08:35:30 PM
#21
When I first saw the topic of this thread I was scared because i first thought the idea was to support BSV but when I read the OP page I understand it was to expose Craig Wright and his team's false activities and also save newbies from being deceived by their lies.
Creating a subforum that's only meant for it will be a good idea 
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
September 22, 2022, 06:05:50 PM
#20
On the BSV supporters,  I'd suggest going through some threads on r/BSV and see how it works out there.

I think in general a small amount of BSV supporters coming into a space with experienced BSV debunkers does little but harm the scam:  They show up and have their claims tested against facts, get pressured to justify their positions, and -- in short -- get ripped apart.  When they're not too obnoxious they're a lot of fun to debunk, and it keeps the conversation going during the long lulls.   Though because of this, it seldom happens even when it's permitted.

The situation is different though when active BSV debunkers don't outnumber them.

One of the really good contributors to rBSV is even a former BSV investor (though he never was one of the clowns out spreading pro-Wright lies-- AFAIK not a single one of those has ever been flipped, they just disappear from the internet if they get convinced that it's not real).

The biggest problem they've created on reddit is that interacting with them gives them more opportunities to file false reports and get accounts suspended.

r/bsv does eventually ban them but only when they're outright disruptive and harassing people or doing stuff that might get the subreddit in trouble, not because they're promoting the scam.  The assumption is that >95% of the readers in rbsv are well enough informed that they're already immune to the scam (or soon will be) so the only risk to worry about is that they become annoying instead of fun for the honest participants.

Something absolutely needs to be done.  If not a subforum, I'd settle for a sticky at the top of every single forum and subforum containing the text:

Craig Wright is a proven liar, charlatan and identity thief.  SV is a worthless scamcoin.  Anyone who supports either is scum, bereft of human decency.

Followed by all the documented evidence of Wright's forgeries and lies.

Back in 2017 I circulated a message to people to see if I could get a lot of long time bitcoiners to sign onto a message saying:

Over time his necessity has evolved from a simple (although high value) tax rebate scam to an advanced fee fraud (nigerian prince) to what is,  
Was it necessary? Why are you linking his fraudulent activities to the Nigerian community? You know that would irritate anyone from that country.
My apologies.  I have the utmost respect for the people of Nigeria-- but few people know what advanced fee fraud is, and the particular brand of spanish-prisoner-con (apologies to spaniards) is known to essentially all english speakers as a nigerian price scam.  To this day I receive frequent nigerian prince scam messages though they're finally starting to be outnumbered by tech support and amazon refund scams originating out of India.  Every one of us lives with negative things done by some few scammers in our countries.  I can only promise you that I know that the actions of a relatively small population of scammers in Nigeria doesn't really reflect negatively on the rest, and I'm confident that most people feel the same way.

Wright's scamming does has an African connection-- but it's by way of a conspirator in Kenya, not Nigeria.

I don't think an entire sub board would be necessary right now. Like others have said, this info would be best confined to their own relevant thread(s) and sub boards are only created if and once there's demand so that's the place you should start. Still, I don't think we need an entire board and could even be counter productive as I'm sure Craig would find a way to turn it into a win or a point of attack. He usually does.
...
Yeah, maybe rename it to BSV/Faketoshi scam sub or something.
LOL I agree on the name.  Really I'd even leave BSV out-- without Wright it's just another irrelevant altcoin-- except the two are hopelessly intertwined and often people who need to hear about Wright are looking for info on BSV, since BSV is one of the ways they monetize the scam.  Increasingly so as they've now agreed in court that BSV will now be handing over "his" coins.

I don't think crowdsourcing this type of information is probably not the best way to accomplish your stated goal. I think it would probably be better for a group of well-funded individuals (presumably who have been subjected to the kind of harassment described in the OP) to hire an attorney to privately contact those who have lawsuits filed against them with information about how to best defend against these kinds of cases. I have noticed that many of the cases have been filed outside of the US, but in the US, courts can only consider information that has been presented to the court, and the court will not consider publicly available information if it has not otherwise been submitted to the court (also, generally the plaintiff or defendant has standing to submit evidence in most situations).

Nearly all of the quite powerful discrediting used against him in court so far has come from the community.  Truth has the property that it's reproducible by others. So when community members find information which disproves Mr. Wright, we're able to point the lawyers at it for validation and reproduction.  This is essential because replacing the public's efforts in isolating the conflicts and contradictions with paid experts at hundreds of dollars per hour would be utterly ruinously expensive.   Your mental model of "well-funded individuals (presumably who have been subjected to the kind of harassment described in the OP)" is just off base.  They do not exist.   Wright and his conspirators are legitimately well funded: They expect billions in return.  All his opponents can do is hope to mitigate losses (unless they flip and accept his bribes,  I've heard that he's offered as much as $10 million dollars to people for supporting his efforts), even where they technically have the means to pay for the litigation it's with a heavy heart because it comes at a great personal cost with no hope of a benefit from it other than Bitcoin's continued health.

The fight in court is also a public information war more than you realize.  When some professional-- a lawyer, a press person, a ghost writer, etc--   is contacted by Wright to take Wright on as a client and effectively become a paid conspirator in his scheme they have to decide if they're going to be able to plausibly deny knowing it was fraud to protect their reputation later after it collapses (and potentially avoid criminal charges themselves).  The more limited Wright is in his selection the less successful he'll be.  What the rules say and what the practice on the ground is are two distinct things: even judges in the US absolutely do look at what's said in public, even informally, and are going to take a second read of things which might end up making them look like idiots in the future.  Some of the arguments -- like general impossibility of Wright's efforts to force a coin stealing backdoor onto the network-- are themselves directly a question about the public temperature on the subject of his demands and several times already mass media articles have show up as evidence in court cases as evidence of the public's perception of the subject.

But also the fight in court is also only one element of dealing with this fraud-- it's the most obnoxious because its the one where "just ignore it and let him scam people" is not a realistic option (at least for the targets), but his attack does go beyond court.   For example, Wright's conspirators have been meeting with heads of state in many parts of the world pitching their agenda (which involves outlawing bitcoin and adopting their Bitcoin knockoff).  The only way they're getting these meetings is that whatever overworked staffer is vetting the schedule does a quick search and doesn't find information that exposes what a big reputation risk an association with this conman and his con would be.
copper member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1901
Amazon Prime Member #7
September 22, 2022, 04:45:45 PM
#19
Would people be supportive of creating a sub-forum for investigating/exposing Craig Wright and his BSV scam for the protection of Bitcoin and Bitcoiners?
<>

His highly funded lawsuits have already cost people millions of dollars defending them and if carried to trial are expected to cost ten to tens of millions of dollars more, and there is little to limit him filing more of them.  Stopping him requires casting a light on his actions so clear and stark that no one can ignore the facts -- we need to get to a state where his lawsuits are laughed out of court and where prosecutors feel pressured to take action against an obvious fraud.

<>


But the question is, who'll be moderator of this board?
I would generally be against this kind of sub for a reason (inadvertently) highlighted by ETFbitcoin.

Although the administrators and moderators are allowed to (and to) have their own personal viewpoints on various topics of discussion, the forum as an institution is neutral on (nearly) all topics and is a very strong advocate for free speech. The forum does not moderate for accuracy of posts, nor should it.

The intention of this kind of subforum is clearly for the forum to take a particular stance on a topic of discussion. It would be very difficult to moderate this kind of sub because I do not doubt there would be a lot of inaccurate information, likely posted by people claiming to be on both sides of the BSV/CSW debate. This inaccurate information would reduce the usefulness of anyone trying to use said subform as a means to quickly (and economically) get any case filed against them thrown out of court.

I don't think crowdsourcing this type of information is probably not the best way to accomplish your stated goal. I think it would probably be better for a group of well-funded individuals (presumably who have been subjected to the kind of harassment described in the OP) to hire an attorney to privately contact those who have lawsuits filed against them with information about how to best defend against these kinds of cases. I have noticed that many of the cases have been filed outside of the US, but in the US, courts can only consider information that has been presented to the court, and the court will not consider publicly available information if it has not otherwise been submitted to the court (also, generally the plaintiff or defendant has standing to submit evidence in most situations).
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
September 22, 2022, 03:02:12 PM
#18
Something absolutely needs to be done.  If not a subforum, I'd settle for a sticky at the top of every single forum and subforum containing the text:

Craig Wright is a proven liar, charlatan and identity thief.  SV is a worthless scamcoin.  Anyone who supports either is scum, bereft of human decency.

Followed by all the documented evidence of Wright's forgeries and lies.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 1216
The revolution will be digital
September 22, 2022, 02:43:04 PM
#17
Hello Greg. With due respect to your contribution to the Bitcoin community, I'd like to strongly oppose to this suggestion of yours. Here is why...

1. A dedicated sub-forum will lead to undue attention to this shitcoin, i.e. BSV.

2. Possibility of a Streisand effect can not be ruled out either.

3. A narrative like Bitcoiners are Afraid may also be floated.


I would rather suggest the following...

1. Regularly post and discuss attacks by BSV proponents on Bitcoiners on Bitcoin Discussion.

2. Expose scam by BSV community leaders at Scam Accusations.

3. Mention technical inferiority and glitches of BSV at Unmoderated BSV Thread.

4. If theymos agrees, more factoids with links to relevant threads may be shown in forum ad space.


Fundamentally, creating awareness of What is Bitcoin is probably more important than telling people Why BSV is SCAM. Otherwise, if we need a sub to defend BSV attacks, we'd probably need a hell lot of subs for defense & awareness in future. It'll open a can of worm, that we may comfortably ignore.
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