BTC-e Legal action. - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

exstasie

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Quote from: btcney on July 30, 2017, 02:40:10 AM

Well, i think the problem is that the US government has never shown much support for victims when they shut down a site that has been accused of supporting money laundering activities. A recent example would be LibertyReserve, obviously it was seized by them and i thought that they should have at least compensated for user losses, but no, nobody was refunded.

BTC-e is essentially Libertyreserve v2.0 with inbuilt exchange.

I mean, taking legal action is worth a try but anyone interseted should keep in mind that the fees can add up if you lose, and plus even if you win it might not be worth your energy.

They are indeed treating BTC-E like Libertyreserve, which does not bode well for its customers at all. The fact that they called the userbase "criminals" basically said it all. Frankly the way the US authorities framed the indictment, I'd be afraid to even pursue any action, for fear that they'll start investigating me....

Even if you are innocent, you don't want the Feds looking into you. They can ruin your life just for looking at them funny.

btcney

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Well, i think the problem is that the US government has never shown much support for victims when they shut down a site that has been accused of supporting money laundering activities. A recent example would be LibertyReserve, obviously it was seized by them and i thought that they should have at least compensated for user losses, but no, nobody was refunded.

BTC-e is essentially Libertyreserve v2.0 with inbuilt exchange.

I mean, taking legal action is worth a try but anyone interseted should keep in mind that the fees can add up if you lose, and plus even if you win it might not be worth your energy.

Simran

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Quote from: jubalix on July 28, 2017, 08:59:46 PM

Any other lawyers or individuals interested in undertaking a legal action against to try an seek redress for you BTC-e losses or otherwise, post here.

I am suggesting an ETH ICO to fund this.

I am a paralegal at a local solo practicing law firm. I believe there may some administrative action that can be taken. There is one in place, as far as I know, for Border Patrol/Customs (CBP) when property is seized at the border or at checkpoints. If not, then the following questions I have are as follows:

What's the cause of action?
Do we file as a collective, and if so, in what federal district court?
If we don't file as a collective, does each plaintiff file their own petition with a district court of the circuit they're in?

Also, is the federal government in possession of our coins, or merely the BTC-e.com domain? The BTC-e.nz domain doesn't seem to be seized. Further, if the coins are seized by the feds, should we file an app. for TRO to prevent any movement of the money?

Feel free to inbox me. If you feel that there is a viable claim here, I will research it further. LexisNexis always has good stuff in my opinion.

illyiller

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Quote from: Quickseller on July 29, 2017, 10:12:02 PM

Quote from: illyiller on July 29, 2017, 10:04:15 PM

Quote from: Quickseller on July 29, 2017, 06:26:41 PM

Unless you are suggesting that the proceeds of the ICO would be used to purchase btc-e debt at a discount, however this would be difficult because afaik, there is no way to even begin to verify debt claims without access to the btc-e DB.

Even with access to the database, this would be very difficult. Over one million accounts and no required verification. I wonder what percentage of the accounts have anything associated with them besides username, email, password, IP logs.

Fair enough, who the hell wants to send BTC-e their documents? But I guess that's why we're in this mess... Undecided

Yes, it would be very messy for as long as the btc-e website is offline/down. In theory, the US government could bring the DB back online and allow users to transfer assets among each-other for the purpose of assigning debts.

Another issue is the fact that the US government does not appear to be holding any of btc-e's crypto assets. The btc-e hot wallet still contains around 400 BTC, and does not appear to have been drained. If the US government did not seize financial assets of btc-e that ultimately belonged to their customers, then their customers would probably not have a claim against the US government just because they forcibly caused btc-e to be shut down.

That's the strange thing about this. It seems like the US authorities probably thought they were raiding BTC-e's main servers, including at least hot wallets. At this point, since they haven't announced any funds seized (pretty embarrassing press release really), I'm guessing the servers they seized were just pointing to remote servers.

The ETH wallet was moved today..... but we have no idea who moved it. Maybe it was the owners, maybe it was the US government, maybe it was just a dead man's switch.

In any case, the overall situation doesn't look good at all for the exchange's customers.....

Quickseller

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Quote from: illyiller on July 29, 2017, 10:04:15 PM

Quote from: Quickseller on July 29, 2017, 06:26:41 PM

Unless you are suggesting that the proceeds of the ICO would be used to purchase btc-e debt at a discount, however this would be difficult because afaik, there is no way to even begin to verify debt claims without access to the btc-e DB.

Even with access to the database, this would be very difficult. Over one million accounts and no required verification. I wonder what percentage of the accounts have anything associated with them besides username, email, password, IP logs.

Fair enough, who the hell wants to send BTC-e their documents? But I guess that's why we're in this mess... Undecided

Yes, it would be very messy for as long as the btc-e website is offline/down. In theory, the US government could bring the DB back online and allow users to transfer assets among each-other for the purpose of assigning debts.

Another issue is the fact that the US government does not appear to be holding any of btc-e's crypto assets. The btc-e hot wallet still contains around 400 BTC, and does not appear to have been drained. If the US government did not seize financial assets of btc-e that ultimately belonged to their customers, then their customers would probably not have a claim against the US government just because they forcibly caused btc-e to be shut down.

illyiller

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Quote from: Quickseller on July 29, 2017, 06:26:41 PM

Unless you are suggesting that the proceeds of the ICO would be used to purchase btc-e debt at a discount, however this would be difficult because afaik, there is no way to even begin to verify debt claims without access to the btc-e DB.

Even with access to the database, this would be very difficult. Over one million accounts and no required verification. I wonder what percentage of the accounts have anything associated with them besides username, email, password, IP logs.

Fair enough, who the hell wants to send BTC-e their documents? But I guess that's why we're in this mess... Undecided

Quickseller

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Quote from: jubalix on July 28, 2017, 08:59:46 PM

I am suggesting an ETH ICO to fund this.

I am not sure I follow how an ICO would make sense to handle this.

In order to sue someone, you need to have standing, and you can only sue for actual damages (plus punitive damages). So someone who lost (had damages) $1000 in their btc-e account would be able to sue for $1000, potentially plus legal costs/fees and punitive damages.

Someone who invested in an ICO would not be able to recover anything simply because they are token holders of something unrelated to the ICO. Unless you are suggesting that the proceeds of the ICO would be used to purchase btc-e debt at a discount, however this would be difficult because afaik, there is no way to even begin to verify debt claims without access to the btc-e DB.

jubalix

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Quote from: Error 522 on July 29, 2017, 07:55:55 AM

Quote from: jubalix on July 29, 2017, 07:23:32 AM

It's called rule of law and private property.

Something the US gov cares little about, except when it is theirs.

true true, and they have deep pockets, that said at least where I am the courts particularly superior courts often hate gov and citizen equally, well maybe not hate, but pretty much insist on due process and generally treat both equally and are not fond of governments kicking doors in on people just doing legit business.

They know executive gov is always trying to expand its reach, including against the court and needs to be held in check.

Error 522

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Quote from: jubalix on July 29, 2017, 07:23:32 AM

It's called rule of law and private property.

Something the US gov cares little about, except when it is theirs.

jubalix

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Quote from: potpockets on July 29, 2017, 07:15:10 AM

Good Morning,
I can not also see any hope of going into great judicial battles to bring any return. Perhaps for big investors, it's better to rule that no one leaves all their btc in a single exchange so many of those have already settled on the loss and are trying to recover it in another exchange.

maybe but as crytpto community this has to be done to make federal agencies stop being cowboys, and causing legitimate business and trading problems.

Sure go for the drug money etc, but leave my coins alone, or put processes in place to do your busts right, or face the consequences at court.

This will also help legitimize cryptos who's image is continually tarnished by govt action.

did see the swager of the FBI guy....they need to be taken down by the Courts.

It's called rule of law and private property.

potpockets

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Good Morning,
I can not also see any hope of going into great judicial battles to bring any return. Perhaps for big investors, it's better to rule that no one leaves all their btc in a single exchange so many of those have already settled on the loss and are trying to recover it in another exchange.

jubalix

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Quote from: xtimus on July 29, 2017, 06:29:48 AM

I don't think it will be expensive. We can make an agreement with lawyer(s) that they keep a percent of winnings and they will work for little to no cost. Any lawyer who wins this case will probably be well off for life.
Also US government may not even need to have seized the coins to be sued. They can be sued for damages.

Yes the damages angle is a good idea, but will need to establish members of the class, and quantum....that could be hard.

I think it could be potentially hard, due to jurisdictional issues, and legislation that make them immune from prosecution for various acts .... I am sure there will be some of these around that they would try and rely on.

other options maybe

federal tort claims act , but note defenses and in the alternative

Intentional Torts Exception eg interference with contractual rights

may have some legs.

xtimus

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I don't think it will be expensive. We can make an agreement with lawyer(s) that they keep a percent of winnings and they will work for little to no cost. Any lawyer who wins this case will probably be well off for life.
Also US government may not even need to have seized the coins to be sued. They can be sued for damages.

jubalix

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Ok though about this a bit, what we can do, and it will be relatively inexpensive, is an injunction against any auctions by the US govt on the grounds that a portion of those coins are not theirs.

This will I think, force the govt to negotiate a percentage of any seized funds as returnable to the proper owners. Also it may force them to release any data, or at least release for in confidence, to establish what is exactly their. either way we can probably keep the money/coins tied up for a while.

This is probably the simplest way.

marky89

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Quote from: jubalix on July 29, 2017, 03:48:30 AM

Quote from: MAbtc on July 29, 2017, 02:19:42 AM

Quote from: jubalix on July 28, 2017, 08:59:46 PM

Any other lawyers or individuals interested in undertaking a legal action against to try an seek redress for you BTC-e losses or otherwise, post here.

I am suggesting an ETH ICO to fund this.

Undertaking legal action ... against the US authorities? Good luck. An ETH ICO could actually potentially provide a lot of funding (given how people will still throw ridiculous amounts of money into any ICO at this point). But taking on the feds?

This, unfortunately, isn't like offering online gambling from Antigua. Money laundering is apparently taken much more seriously, and given that BTC-E had no mandatory KYC, they probably shouldn't have openly accepted US residents. Pigs, man. Undecided

we can still SUE the US gov, and they do have money, for acting in away that has caused us Loss,. I know how hard this is, but still its worth shot. Eg if the police smash your house down to get at a bad guy, they can pay for it.

I am sure they will have some sort of legislation that says no we don't have to pay, but it may depend on other options.

In principal, you are right. But I just don't see a great chance of success there. Those of us who have sustained big losses from this -- we need to start rebuilding now. I don't have capital to put into any legal battles. I need to rebuild my trading capital and get my life back on track after these losses.

As much as I would love to fight the US authorities, I think it will probably be a waste of money (and for US citizens, it might bring some unwanted attention). I suspect that this is the reality for a lot of BTC-E's customers.

jubalix

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Quote from: MAbtc on July 29, 2017, 02:19:42 AM

Quote from: jubalix on July 28, 2017, 08:59:46 PM

Any other lawyers or individuals interested in undertaking a legal action against to try an seek redress for you BTC-e losses or otherwise, post here.

I am suggesting an ETH ICO to fund this.

Undertaking legal action ... against the US authorities? Good luck. An ETH ICO could actually potentially provide a lot of funding (given how people will still throw ridiculous amounts of money into any ICO at this point). But taking on the feds?

This, unfortunately, isn't like offering online gambling from Antigua. Money laundering is apparently taken much more seriously, and given that BTC-E had no mandatory KYC, they probably shouldn't have openly accepted US residents. Pigs, man. Undecided

we can still SUE the US gov for acting in away that has caused us Loss,. I know how hard this is, but still its worth shot. Eg if the police smash your house down to get at a bad guy, they can pay for it.

I am sure they will have some sort of legislation that says no we don't have to pay, but it may depend on other options.

marky89

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Quote from: Sukovsky on July 29, 2017, 02:25:56 AM

WellI am no US citizen and they are still taking my money??

This is how the DOJ/FBI/etc rolls. They don't care if you are a US citizen or not -- they will steal from you either way. There were many US residents trading on BTC-E -- this is the main justification for why they think they can shut down the exchange like this. But the US customers losing money right now won't get shit back either. The press release from the authorities basically calls all the customers criminals ... I'm scared to even try to get in line to ask for repayment.

Doesn't even sound like they were able to seize funds, anyway. This was an embarrassing episode for US law enforcement, being unable to seize any funds or nab the real owners. But still, it seems we will lose everything anyway. Undecided

Sukovsky

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WellI am no US citizen and they are still taking my money??

MAbtc

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Quote from: jubalix on July 28, 2017, 08:59:46 PM

Any other lawyers or individuals interested in undertaking a legal action against to try an seek redress for you BTC-e losses or otherwise, post here.

I am suggesting an ETH ICO to fund this.

Undertaking legal action ... against the US authorities? Good luck. An ETH ICO could actually potentially provide a lot of funding (given how people will still throw ridiculous amounts of money into any ICO at this point). But taking on the feds?

This, unfortunately, isn't like offering online gambling from Antigua. Money laundering is apparently taken much more seriously, and given that BTC-E had no mandatory KYC, they probably shouldn't have openly accepted US residents. Pigs, man. Undecided

xtimus

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I want to get involved but I am not a lawyer or anything. I am just a victim.

Topic: BTC-e Legal action. - page 2. (Read 2458 times)