"BTC Is backed by nothing while the USD is backed by 'full faith' of US gov't"

cdog

hero member

Activity: 1036

Merit: 500

Quote from: Elwar on January 04, 2014, 04:25:09 AM

Quote from: Honeypot on January 01, 2014, 11:56:15 PM

If you know anywhere a nation that doesn't prosecute you for not paying taxes, you let me know too

Bahamas, Turks & Caicos, Bermuda, etc...

Quote from: Honeypot on January 01, 2014, 11:56:15 PM

In the mean time, try not use gas, electricity, public road, public transportation, and public park, not to mention water and sewage either.

In what sick socialist world do you live in where all of those things paid for by tax dollars?

I think from that last post, its pretty clear Honeypot is just trolling for the lulz. Simply ignore him (click on it), he'll go away eventually.

Elwar

legendary

Activity: 3598

Merit: 2386

Viva Ut Vivas

Quote from: Honeypot on January 01, 2014, 11:56:15 PM

If you know anywhere a nation that doesn't prosecute you for not paying taxes, you let me know too

Bahamas, Turks & Caicos, Bermuda, etc...

Quote from: Honeypot on January 01, 2014, 11:56:15 PM

In the mean time, try not use gas, electricity, public road, public transportation, and public park, not to mention water and sewage either.

In what sick socialist world do you live in where all of those things paid for by tax dollars?

cdog

hero member

Activity: 1036

Merit: 500

The full faith of the US Gov simply means coercion and violence. I think Americans must quite enjoy violence, given that the United States has become the world leader in violence with second place so far behind that we cant even see them in the rearview mirror.

Violence and threat of loss of life and limb, or total loss of freedom (imprisonment) are quite powerful motivating factors. Extremely powerful.

That threat will be hard for Bitcoin to overcome. But it eventually will overcome it, because the emperor has no clothes. People can continue to avoid staring the truth in the face indefinitely, but when their wealth becomes radically devalued due to unsustainable economic policies which extend well beyond the borders of the USA, they will be "forced" to embrace alternatives via a different means - necessity of survival.

Id be very interested to hear what Chomsky has to say about Bitcoin.

Bigeyeone

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: rocks on January 03, 2014, 01:16:32 PM

Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 03, 2014, 10:02:02 AM

ok I tried to explain it in simple terms, guess I failed, but here is the bitcoin wiki that says :

Quote

While Fractional Reserve Banking with Bitcoin is possible and already implemented with CoinLenders ........

Source : https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking_and_Bitcoin

again you can fractional reserve bank anything, if you do not understand this, then you do not understand fractional reserve banking, it is just an accounting scheme. It is done with fiat, it was done with gold when gold was the currency and there is no reason why it can not be done with bitcoin.

You are showing the most basic and most predictable of all human responses: denial

You are missing a very important aspect regarding fractional banking, it requires an entity that can bailout banks and stop a run.

When we were on a gold standard banks implemented fractional banking on a much more limited scale, around 2:1, and still runs that wiped banks out were common.

In today's fiat world the banks are levered over 10:1. The only way this is possible is because the FED can stop any run in its tracks by providing on demand liquidity, so runs are impossible becuase there is an entity that can bail them out.

In order to provide "on demand liquidity" the FED essentially needs the ability to expand the money supply on demand, i.e. print money.

In Bitcoin, this ability does not exist and there is not bailout entity that can provide on demand liquidity. Yes, the bankers will try to implement fractional banking on top of bitcoin, but they will be burned without a FED who can print bitcoins.

tl;dr Wall street can and will fractionalize Bitcoin, but without a printing press those attempts will fail, causing people to not trust or give their bitcoins to bankers who fractionalize, which in turn will prevent bitcoin from being fractionalized in the manner you describe.

NO I did not miss that point , I adressed it in my first post about this subject o

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4281267

Quote

Only obstacle there is that it is is more risky to fractional reserve bank with bitcoins because there is no lender of last resort incase all the depositors want to withdraw their bitcoins from the bitcoin bank, but before the FED existed there was no lender of last resort either in the USA and that did not stop the banks from fractional reserve banking the USD at the time.

rocks

legendary

Activity: 1153

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 03, 2014, 10:02:02 AM

ok I tried to explain it in simple terms, guess I failed, but here is the bitcoin wiki that says :

Quote

While Fractional Reserve Banking with Bitcoin is possible and already implemented with CoinLenders ........

Source : https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking_and_Bitcoin

again you can fractional reserve bank anything, if you do not understand this, then you do not understand fractional reserve banking, it is just an accounting scheme. It is done with fiat, it was done with gold when gold was the currency and there is no reason why it can not be done with bitcoin.

You are showing the most basic and most predictable of all human responses: denial

You are missing a very important aspect regarding fractional banking, it requires an entity that can bailout banks and stop a run.

When we were on a gold standard banks implemented fractional banking on a much more limited scale, around 2:1, and still runs that wiped banks out were common. In today's fiat world the banks are levered over 10:1. The only way this is possible is because the FED can stop any run in its tracks by providing on demand liquidity, so runs are impossible becuase there is an entity that can bail them out.

In order to provide "on demand liquidity" the FED essentially needs the ability to expand the money supply on demand, i.e. print money.

In Bitcoin, this ability does not exist and there is no bailout entity that can provide on demand liquidity. Yes, the bankers will try to implement fractional banking on top of bitcoin, but they will be burned without a FED who can print bitcoins.

tl;dr Wall street can and will fractionalize Bitcoin, but without a printing press those attempts will fail, causing people to not trust or give their bitcoins to bankers who fractionalize, which in turn will prevent bitcoin from being fractionalized in the manner you describe.

Misesian

member

Activity: 94

Merit: 10

Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 03, 2014, 09:09:27 AM

Quote from: Misesian on January 03, 2014, 08:52:43 AM

Quote from: Lethn on January 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM

Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on January 03, 2014, 06:00:37 AM

USD is really backed by guns.

The most realistic viewpoint I've seen, the only reason the USD has lasted so long is because of America's firepower, people have been too scared to stand up to them so they accept the U.S Dollar or face destruction, until Bitcoin came along of course.

Well actually the US dollar used to be linked to gold that's why countries and people were willing to accept it as the world reserve currency, you used to be able to get 1 ounce for 35 dollars I think, then the US started running perpetual deficits and people started wising up to the fact there's no way the US had enough gold to pay back the debt that it owed for running the deficits and that's when Nixon delinked the dollar to gold in '71. Since then we've been inflating bubble after bubble so the USD in it's current form hasn't been around for that long

The USD has been de facto off the gold standard since 1938, ever since the gold reserve act, this is when the gold standard was suspended except for foreign exchange, when foreign central banks tried to exchange their USD for gold that is when the gold standard was officially buried by Nixon in 71, but it was already dead since 1938, because ever since 1938 no US citizen could exchange their USD for gold, only foreign central banks could in theory until they really tried to do it during the vietnam war.

Yes but being linked to gold still gives the USD value, as soon as it was delinked in '71 thats when we got all that lovely inflation

Bigeyeone

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: alexeft on January 03, 2014, 09:53:36 AM

Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 02, 2014, 09:22:06 PM

Fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin as well, fractional reserve banking is just an accounting scheme that can be done with anything.

There's no fractional reserve-anything in the blockchain.
Outside the blockchain, one can print as much paper as they want, so long as people accept it.

Forget about it. It just doesn't work.

Wink

ok I tried to explain it in simple terms, guess I failed, but here is the bitcoin wiki that says :

Quote

While Fractional Reserve Banking with Bitcoin is possible and already implemented with CoinLenders ........

Source : https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking_and_Bitcoin

again you can fractional reserve bank anything, if you do not understand this, then you do not understand fractional reserve banking, it is just an accounting scheme. It is done with fiat, it was done with gold when gold was the currency and there is no reason why it can not be done with bitcoin.

You are showing the most basic and most predictable of all human responses: denial

alexeft

legendary

Activity: 854

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Bigeyeone on January 02, 2014, 09:22:06 PM

Fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin as well, fractional reserve banking is just an accounting scheme that can be done with anything.

There's no fractional reserve-anything in the blockchain.
Outside the blockchain, one can print as much paper as they want, so long as people accept it.

Forget about it. It just doesn't work.

Wink

Bigeyeone

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: Misesian on January 03, 2014, 08:52:43 AM

Quote from: Lethn on January 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM

Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on January 03, 2014, 06:00:37 AM

USD is really backed by guns.

The most realistic viewpoint I've seen, the only reason the USD has lasted so long is because of America's firepower, people have been too scared to stand up to them so they accept the U.S Dollar or face destruction, until Bitcoin came along of course.

Well actually the US dollar used to be linked to gold that's why countries and people were willing to accept it as the world reserve currency, you used to be able to get 1 ounce for 35 dollars I think, then the US started running perpetual deficits and people started wising up to the fact there's no way the US had enough gold to pay back the debt that it owed for running the deficits and that's when Nixon delinked the dollar to gold in '71. Since then we've been inflating bubble after bubble so the USD in it's current form hasn't been around for that long

The USD has been de facto off the gold standard since 1938, ever since the gold reserve act, this is when the gold standard was suspended except for foreign exchange, when foreign central banks tried to exchange their USD for gold that is when the gold standard was officially buried by Nixon in 71, but it was already dead since 1938, because ever since 1938 no US citizen could exchange their USD for gold, only foreign central banks could in theory until they really tried to do it during the vietnam war.

Misesian

member

Activity: 94

Merit: 10

Quote from: Lethn on January 03, 2014, 06:23:02 AM

Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on January 03, 2014, 06:00:37 AM

USD is really backed by guns.

The most realistic viewpoint I've seen, the only reason the USD has lasted so long is because of America's firepower, people have been too scared to stand up to them so they accept the U.S Dollar or face destruction, until Bitcoin came along of course.

Well actually the US dollar used to be linked to gold that's why countries and people were willing to accept it as the world reserve currency, you used to be able to get 1 ounce for 35 dollars I think, then the US started running perpetual deficits and people started wising up to the fact there's no way the US had enough gold to pay back the debt that it owed for running the deficits and that's when Nixon delinked the dollar to gold in '71. Since then we've been inflating bubble after bubble so the USD in it's current form hasn't been around for that long

Lethn

legendary

Activity: 1540

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Bitcoin Oz on January 03, 2014, 06:00:37 AM

USD is really backed by guns.

The most realistic viewpoint I've seen, the only reason the USD has lasted so long is because of America's firepower, people have been too scared to stand up to them so they accept the U.S Dollar or face destruction, until Bitcoin came along of course.

Bitcoin Oz

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

Wat

USD is really backed by guns.

btcrich

sr. member

Activity: 302

Merit: 250

Quote from: tabnloz on January 02, 2014, 05:12:34 PM

Quote from: 7Priest7 on January 02, 2014, 02:34:44 PM

Quote from: kwoody on January 02, 2014, 02:01:46 PM

Military defends government and allows government to exist, government says USD is money.

The real question is, Could our military defend our land if china decided to foreclose for debts we owe them.
China has overwhelming numbers, any Chinese citizen could be given a gun and told kill or be killed.
China also has the ability to mass produce anything cheaply(weapons included.)
EDIT: China was the first to mass produce a weapon, and they are likely to be the last when they finally decide to take over the world.

bluemeanie1, You should really edit/append your posts.
Having four replies by a single person(with nobody in between) is nonsense.

I don't believe China would ever go this way. The main problem for the Chinese govt is to keep its population fed and in employment for without that their power would be at risk. Imagine a couple of hundred million poor hungry people trying to make do. Dumping US Treasuries would cripple the US, probably also the world and definitely the Chinese themselves. What it looks like they are doing, is transitioning away. Deals with Europe, Australia and Russia that aren't denominated in US dollars. Buying gold. Buying farmlands overseas. China has traditionally been a country that wants to keep others out, but slowly it has relaxed its borders & ideologies, however it is a big jump to see it taking over the world anytime soon.

China has not traditionally been a country that wants to keep others out. It has traditionally been a country that wants to keep people, and more importantly their wealth, in. Only during certain periods, such as the Beijing Olympics as well as during the last few months, have they applied stricter rules for issuing visas. I know foreigners that have been living here since the 70's without any difficulty. If anything, I imagine China will be tightening up the borders as things could not get any more relaxed than they were just a few months ago.

GnB

newbie

Activity: 33

Merit: 0

Quote from: overunity on January 02, 2014, 08:18:22 PM

Quote from: doof on January 01, 2014, 10:38:02 PM

Its not really dumb, its just a lot isn't taught in schools. Not a lot of people can answer "where does money come from?". Banks generate cash flow through loans, and 80% of money is debt.

It may be very surprising to believe but central banks actually make money out of nothing yep NOTHING .

The money from nothing is lent to high street banks at 0.5 %

In Britain every pound can be lent out by the high street around fifteen times .

Who eventually pays for this money ,us suckers, every single bit of it .It is called true inflation which is currently running at 10%.

Google = Re-hypothecation ,fractional reserve banking , for the 10% inflation check out food and fuel/commodity prices 2003 and compare to 2013 commodities .then come back and correct me .

Bitcoin is the peoples chance to fight back against banksters .

1) No re-hypothecation .

2) No fractional reserve thievery .

3) Deflation were stuff gets cheaper . this is the "garlic bread" of finance ,it is the future .

If people actually knew how the banks backed by government really worked there would be a revolution .

When you put it that way I guess 'virtual' currencies have been around this whole time Tongue

Bigeyeone

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: overunity on January 02, 2014, 08:18:22 PM

Quote from: doof on January 01, 2014, 10:38:02 PM

Its not really dumb, its just a lot isn't taught in schools. Not a lot of people can answer "where does money come from?". Banks generate cash flow through loans, and 80% of money is debt.

It may be very surprising to believe but central banks actually make money out of nothing yep NOTHING .

The money from nothing is lent to high street banks at 0.5 %

In Britain every pound can be lent out by the high street around fifteen times .

Who eventually pays for this money ,us suckers, every single bit of it .It is called true inflation which is currently running at 10%.

Google = Re-hypothecation ,fractional reserve banking , for the 10% inflation check out food and fuel/commodity prices 2003 and compare to 2013 commodities .then come back and correct me .

Bitcoin is the peoples chance to fight back against banksters .

1) No re-hypothecation .

2) No fractional reserve thievery .

3) Deflation were stuff gets cheaper . this is the "garlic bread" of finance ,it is the future .

If people actually knew how the banks backed by government really worked there would be a revolution .

Fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin as well, fractional reserve banking is just an accounting scheme that can be done with anything.

If mt.GOX or coinbase would decide to give out loans in bitcoins, you have a defacto bitcoin fractional reserve back.

Only obstacle there is that it is is more risky to fractional reserve bank with bitcoins because there is no lender of last resort incase all the depositors want to withdraw their bitcoins from the bitcoin bank, but before the FED existed there was no lender of last resort either in the USA and that did not stop the banks from fractional reserve banking the USD at the time.

johnyj

legendary

Activity: 1988

Merit: 1012

Beyond Imagination

The government's income (tax) is much less than the spending, how could they back dollar's value?

Wekkel

legendary

Activity: 3122

Merit: 1538

yes

The funny thing is that I have not found a single hit on the word 'income' in income tax. Thing about it: why was an income tax instated round and about the time central banking was introduced in earnest. An excellent method to get people valuing that paper money. Those taxes have to be paid with fiat money after all.

overunity

full member

Activity: 198

Merit: 100

Quote from: doof on January 01, 2014, 10:38:02 PM

Its not really dumb, its just a lot isn't taught in schools. Not a lot of people can answer "where does money come from?". Banks generate cash flow through loans, and 80% of money is debt.

It may be very surprising to believe but central banks actually make money out of nothing yep NOTHING .

The money from nothing is lent to high street banks at 0.5 %

In Britain every pound can be lent out by the high street around fifteen times .

Who eventually pays for this money ,us suckers, every single bit of it .It is called true inflation which is currently running at 10%.

Google = Re-hypothecation ,fractional reserve banking , for the 10% inflation check out food and fuel/commodity prices 2003 and compare to 2013 commodities .then come back and correct me .

Bitcoin is the peoples chance to fight back against banksters .

1) No re-hypothecation .

2) No fractional reserve thievery .

3) Deflation were stuff gets cheaper . this is the "garlic bread" of finance ,it is the future .

If people actually knew how the banks backed by government really worked there would be a revolution .

wayneyoyo

hero member

Activity: 606

Merit: 500

To me " Money " ( including bitcoin ) is just a " way " to complete something

7Priest7

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: tabnloz on January 02, 2014, 05:12:34 PM

The main problem for the Chinese govt is to keep its population fed and in employment for without that their power would be at risk.

The Chinese Government would let them starve to death(possibly mass execute them?), then proceed as usual.
They would censor any criticism.

Topic: "BTC Is backed by nothing while the USD is backed by 'full faith' of US gov't" (Read 2841 times)