Topic: BTC - POS is the future (Read 276 times)

You not trusting single node, you trusting chain with the most coins, which should include multiple nodes, not single node.
No different than trusting PoW chain formed from multiple pools, not single pool.



Criminal sell so many, he crash the price , Market responds by lowering price to a point where all ill-gotten gain can be purchased for almost nothing.

Criminal have no incentive to just hold PoS coins, reason being
1. No Profit
2. Risk of getting caught increases the longer he stakes. (More chance to track him)
3. The risk the community makes new fork and nullifies his stolen coins or reverse it , increases.
Holding worst choice criminal can make, time is against him.

If PoW, Criminal stole private keys, never need to mine 1 coin,
Selling give instant profit, and destroy market value for months , years , or forever.
But main point Criminal makes profit.

Let's say Crazy person, want no profit , just want to destroy coin.

In a PoS coin , he need 90% to control a PoS coin like a 51% PoW attack could.
So basically he own whole coin and stop staking , and
PoS coin network just freezes ,
PoS coins holders most likely just fork coin before criminal stole 90% and continue forward.

In a PoW,  Criminal has 51% and blocks all new transactions
Freezing PoW coin, no new transactions.
Price per PoW coin collapses in short time.
PoW community forks coin to new PoW Algorithm to nullify all future attacks by said criminal and continue forward.
[BTC devs already threaten miners with an algorithm switch, if segwit was not activated, miners succumbed to dev's demands.]
 
Either PoS or PoW, when MadMan try and destroy coins and come close to succeeding, both will hard fork to protect themselves.

You Very Smart Man , I can see that.  Probably well off in 1st world country also, good for you.

I poor man, PoS coin does have underlying costs for me, but the costs are so low you probably consider them insignificant.

Run PoS network require nodes, VPS, VPS require I pay them money or tie up my personal computer which i can not do, need for other things.
Many PoS coins require about same specs as world of warcraft.
So $40 per VPS for one that can meet needed tasks that run 24x7.
so 30X$40 = $1200 every month to operate a PoS network
(30 different people share the cost by each running 1 VPS)

So to me their is underlying cost , but to rich , you see no cost because you so rich already.

You make good point that PoS pools give increased control over PoS networks, but on the other hand you ignore that PoW pools also give increased control of a PoW network.
Bitcoin has less than 15 pools, while PoS coins have average 50 staking address at one time.  
Pools bad for one then they bad for both , and no one ever suggest bitcoin quit using pools.

Some PoS coins use coin age, so the longer it take my block to stake the stronger it chances get.
It may take 60 to 90 days, but my block does stake.

ASICS no use any increase in time to increase chance, they only run hash at their rated speed,
PoW only for Rich, PoS is only chance poor have to stake/mine any new coins.

Some say, poor people like me don't deserve chance to run a PoS coin and earn money, to which I say ,
rich buy asics and mine new coins
poor buy PoS coins and stake new coins

rich spend millions every month because they have it
poor spend hundreds every month because it is all we have

People can sprout the so called advantage of PoW, but 51% attacks happen on both PoW & PoS, neither has guaranteed it will never happen.

Rich can spend millions every month,
The rest of us have to make do with what we can afford and our best chance at a brighter future is only PoS,
PoW left us behind, when it left the PCs.

 

How to put it.  You Friend's Article has mistakes.

PoS nodes will Reorganize to the Longest Chain with the most coins with the highest coin age.
During Reorganization those PoS clients will resend out any coins , as they sync with the new chain.

Your friend is correct in some PoS coin has a rolling checkpoint, however even they only need to redownload a blockchain snapshot or boot strap to get on the correct chain if the rolling checkpoint limit was exceeded. (This is only for those coins using rolling checkpoints.  All of the others will Reorganize and sync no issue.)

Also a global failure would be noticed everywhere for a PoW or PoS network and the people would all halt transactions until the network were working normally.


Again , this is also in error , only Ethereum Casper Protocol is threatening to punish bad nodes, Casper protocol is not yet active and no other coin but etherum designed to use it. All Standard PoS coins only orphan a block but the rewards are still granted later at the interest is recalculated to be higher according to the later stake date, no punishment.


With Stolen Private Keys , in PoW or PoS all of the coins can be sold and Crash the Market Price
(Which Grants Fiat to the perpetrator.)

Criminals needs to steal many more than 51% to control a PoS network , closer to 90% to match the damage a PoW 51% attacks can accomplish.
Thinking a Criminal will steal the majority of a PoS private keys and then not sell for fiat but just waste time trying to destroy the value of the PoS coin network without pay.
Would be the same as bank robber stealing a million dollars and instead of spending it, he sets its on fire . (So their is literally no profit to this attack, just waste everyone time.)

 

For me I don't know why people still feels POS is the best way to go, the reason most of these new coins are popping up is because they also want to become rich over night and looking at the space we have more than enough coins in the space to serve the entire world. How many national currencies are there in the world, today we have more than 1000 Cryptocurrencies and still counting, and this is why survival of the fitting will dictate who win the top spot in the digital currency space

I thought PoW consensus algorithm have been queried by many developers of being centralized. in fact it gives dominance to some miners than others. prove of stake algorithm might as well have its own shortcoming but to the best of my knowledge it is still ok than PoW. imagine 0.33% of global electricity is what is being consume by mining bitcoin. This is too much. running PoS is the best. No huge amount of energy is needed. it is cost effective, High throughtput and the transaction speed is superb. I am sure satoshi would have adopt PoS if he had idea how well the algorithm is.

for me its not a rich vs poor debate. for me its those who want to change bitcoin to be PoS, IF they are doing so purely to get a lottery win and then exit bitcoin fiat rich....
...are the kinds of people we dont want changing bitcoin.. as they dont care about bitcoin.

and its not about rich or poor.
its not about how poor may deserve a lift off the ground, or slapped back down

its just if you dont care about bitcoins sustainability. and you have not done the research into which security is best. and all you can think about is profit. then maybe your not the best person to be handling the topic

there are a lot of similar bitcoins, but anyway, Bitcoin always remained the king and I think that he will be top in the future

Because it's much easier to buy coins than to set up a mining operation. To have a vote in a POS coin all you have to do is come in with a lot of money and buy it out. Then you can decide for all other users what path it will take. I like both POW and POS because they have their pros and cons but we can't simply call one better.

I don't see anything wrong in power consumption. Banks and their servers have been doing it for decades and nobody cares.

POS need more coin for stake on wallet, some people dont have alot btc to do it.

1. no i am not saying the PRICE is tied to production cost
i am saying the UNDERLYING VALUE is linked to mining cost

2. as for the 'majority' of miners. they do not mine at 6cent-20cent electric and paying $1450 for asics.
the majority get cheap electric at under 6cents electric and they get bulk discount or cheap asics due to being the manufacturers or know manufacturers enough to get discounts
those mining with only a couple asics and doing it from their own home are not productive because they have not found the cheapest solutions. they are just hobby mining and not the serious majority. yes you will hear hobby miners complain they are not making profit but out of the millions of asics. hobby mining is not that much

3. the UNDERLYING VALUE is UNDERLYING. it is NOT the price. it is a value below the price that makes up the SUPPORT where people refuse to sell below.

take 2018
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underlying value was at $5800 which is why for the majority of 2018 the price did not go below $5800.
then in october a mass sell off of old S9's occured (cheap second hand prices) making it cheaper to mine as new s15's were also being tested. so the underlying value went down which caused the november 2018 price movement to go down

4. PoS have no ongoing cost. . the initial 'stake' is not a ongoing cost. you dont lose it so you get to keep the 'stake' when you decide you dont want to mine. unlike paying for electric which is an ongoing cost.

5. as for thinking btc should turn to PoS. there are many issues
a. exchanges hoarding many large addresses of 50k coins+ will win block signing the most
b. signing blocks is not as secure as the hashing mechanism of mining
c. hobbiests that just buy PoS coins at speculative prices and stake it have no ongoing cost. but due to exchanges who also have no costs but do have huge hoards, means that hobbiests wont be getting rich.

real world analogy
PoW is people working for the cheque clearing house and getting paid a salary for their labour costs
PoS is people just putting funds into a chequeing account hoping for some interest payment

the thing about PoS is if there are many addresses with 50,000 coins. and then 50k addresses with 1coin each. the stake threshold would be above 1coin  so all those holding just one coin wont even meet the stake requirement so wont get anything.
like bank accounts. have below $100 in an account. dont expect any interest. have $500k+ expect to have a high interest account

some argue that PoS has a underlying cost because people need to fund the stake. but they can take the stake back out.
PoS is pure SPECULATION
PoW has underlying costs

in short. any hobbiest who is crying they cant get a good electric/asic deals to be competitive mining PoW.. will also find they dont have the funds to stake(savings account) enough to be competitive PoS

this is why PoS users end up 'pooling' their stake and trusting they will get shares of a pooled address. yet the practice of this is still not a good security for the network nor good self control of your funds

in short. hobbiests that think they can get rich for nothing or from their home PC's doing little work or little effort will be sadly wokn up to the truth that they are not making profit

What you told is the perfect definition of difference between PoW AND PoS, If you see both option are beneficial for the richer, like in PoW, if you have good investment and solution for your expenses on mining, then it is beneficial to PoW. Same way if you have good number of BTC in your wallet then PoS will be very good for you as you will get high returns for your holded BTC.

So in both option high Investor are benefited. So both option are not benefit for lower users.

OP, good luck on your journey. It is natural for newbies to assume that Bitcoin is "old technology" in a world where technology develops very quickly, "so maybe it must be replaced by something better". Hahaha.

I'm confident that the more newbies learn, the more their journey will come towards Bitcoin.

Those complaining about POW not profitable again should remember that there was a time you can mine 100 bitcoin in 24hours using a old pentium 4 pc ,POS on their other hand has its own weakness too but its just easier for those who can't setup mining rigs ,if bitcoin mining is not profitable for you anymore turn your rigs to another coin and later swap it back to bitcoin its easy as that, if bitcoin changes algo to POS I think it will be doomed

ask yourself this. for a few months it cost $100 to mine a mineral. then some scientist found a way to create the mineral in a lab for one cent.

would you still value it at $100. or just buy the stuff at 1cent and laugh at the ones that paid $100
what happens is real cost value. turns to speculative value.

dont think of the price as the value. think of the underlying real value as a bottom line that people wont sell below. and the speculative part is above it

EG
first 3 months price rises to $100 due to POW cost rise, then when PoS activates, speculation takes over thats random
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//  |___\/_____


in all assets you will find there is a underlying value which is the bottomline where generally everyone would refuse to sell below as its the bottom value where peoples costs outweigh any possible profits, so they will refuse to sell below.
the price is ABOVE the bottomline value as that is where people are profiting and thinking things are worth more than cost based on things like utility.

a PoS coin can only be priced more than a PoW coin if the utility of a PoS coin speculates as having more speculative utility(uses/features/popularity) than a PoW that has no utility which then causes the desire to mine a PoW to come down for costs to come down

i think you are confused in a couple ways.. one there is no reason why you should be able to earn free money just because you cant afford to get started (its not something that is owed to you), and two, just because a coin is pos doesnt mean its free to mine.. you usually have to stake an amount in pos coins to begin mining.. which means you would have to have bitcoin to pos mine bitcoin if it went pos. this is the problem with pos coins, the more you have the more you make, which centralizes pos coins.

What you are saying is the network can work without spending money for electricity:) So BTC is over valuated.

POW was attractive, since it was inclusive for all those people sitting in the internet without money ruled by the central banks (nations)

POS will work differently, its not about the distribution its weather supporting that coin will deliver value.

are you discussing POW vs POS or shilling Tezos? because those are 2 very different subjects.

if you are shilling xtz using it's POS feature , assuming you are done with the debate of POS being a better method than POW then people will be more than willing to point out a lot of better POS coins than Tezos.

if you are still in the process of debating POW vs POS then this has been already discussed a dozen times here already.

PoS coins have no cost of creation. meaning a PoS coins price has no underlying VALUE its just pure speculation
PoW coins have a cost of creation. meaning a PoW coins price has underlying VALUE

imagine it this way. gold has utility. but imagine it could be mined for just 10cents an ounce. everyone would mine it and try selling it for 11cents.
the reason gold costs $1k is because it costs to much to obtain it..
its basic market:mining dynamics of "whats the cheapest way to obtain something of utility"

PoS is only something people want because they want something for nothing.
PoS does not make a coin more secure. infact coins are less secure using PoS

the only cries i ever see about PoW is the cost of creation.. which if you remove your own personal greed you see it as a security benefit.

At POS you don't need power consumption at all. And why would POS be centralized?