Well, I guess in case of Madoff he was the only one guilty, not all his office stuff...
So I cant get your point.
Topic: BurtW [SCAMMER TAG] - page 2. (Read 6250 times)
From Nolo's thread:
Quote
Can "pass through" operators be criminally charged or civilly liable for their participation in facilitating the scheme?
The answer to this is almost assuredly yes. Every state has a different conspiracy statute, but they generally say the same thing:
A person or business generally is guilty of conspiracy to commit a crime if that person or business does one of the following:
It is not a defense to the charge of conspiracy that the person did not know what they were doing was illegal.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1194704 The answer to this is almost assuredly yes. Every state has a different conspiracy statute, but they generally say the same thing:
A person or business generally is guilty of conspiracy to commit a crime if that person or business does one of the following:
- with the purpose of facilitating or promoting its commission, agrees with another person or business to engage in conduct that constitutes a crime or an attempt or solicitation of a crime; or
- agrees to aid another person or business in planning, committing, or attempting to solicit a crime.
It is not a defense to the charge of conspiracy that the person did not know what they were doing was illegal.
Wow my very own Micon thread!
Let's see, maybe I can answer a few of the questions raised in this thread:
1) The 10,000 BTC bet was more or less "illustrative". Everyone else was making 5,000 or 10,000 BTC bets so I started that thread to show my support/belief in the business Pirate explained to me. If Pirate does not eventually pay back any BTC I will actually lose more than that.
2) I know most of the PPT operators and most of the Pirate supporters, again assuming Pirate does not pay, every single one of them will lose more than you can imagine. 50K+ BTC for some of them. This theory that those of us that supported him made any profit is total bullshit.
3) The Pirate situation has far reaching effects in the entire "financial sector" of the Bitcoin economy. Many of the people that borrowed BTC from me turned around and put it in BS&T accounts so many of my loans are now in default. In spite of this I have personally covered and made whole all but one of the people that had deposits with my lending business and I will be paying off that depositor as soon as my next $10K deposit clears the dwolla->gox gauntlet. There are a few individuals that made deposits into my BS&T account through me and their BTC is all tied up there. Every single one of them knew the risks and knew that I was not covering anything that was simply being passed through to BS&T.
4) A long time ago (in Bitcoin time) several of us got together and formed the first PPT on GLBSE more or less as an experiment to determine the market rate of deposits passed through to BS&T with a 25% insurance fund. Patrick decided to buy out all the partners - that was his decision. AFAIK anyone who has requested the 0.32 BTC payout on their PPT bonds has gotten them.
5) I do not live my life with the absolute certainty that Micon has. When I first heard about BS&T (it was called Pirate Saving and Trust back then) my first thought was that it was probably a ponzi. But instead of stopping there I did take the time to research it, talk to others, and eventually talk to Pirate himself in person about the business and was convinced it was not a ponzi. Based on that I felt OK being involved in the PPT zero coupon bonds.
6) My personal take on this is that either 1) Pirate lied to me (and everyone else) and it was/is a ponzi or 2) he told me the truth and it was legit but he has totally fucked up the shut down of the operations - a situation which should eventually resolve with us all getting all/most/some of our BTC back.
As far as a tag goes: if we end up with case 1) then "mark", "idiot", "taken", etc. might fit, if 2) then no tag is really need. But "scammer" would imply that I did not settle my debts, did not deliver goods promised, did not pay a bet, etc. I have done none of those things. All I have done is lost a boatload of BTC and by extension the same boatload of USD.
If I get nothing back from Pirate then I am basically broke and starting over - the Ponzi pals can all drink to that. Some larger Pirate supporters are even worse off and are in very large multi-year holes of debt - again, assuming no pay back from Pirate the Ponzi gang can feel justified in a big "I told you so".
As I said I am not as certain as many of the Ponzi pals and have taken a wait and see approach to this whole thing.
If Micon says anything interesting please quote if for me so I will see it.
Let's see, maybe I can answer a few of the questions raised in this thread:
1) The 10,000 BTC bet was more or less "illustrative". Everyone else was making 5,000 or 10,000 BTC bets so I started that thread to show my support/belief in the business Pirate explained to me. If Pirate does not eventually pay back any BTC I will actually lose more than that.
2) I know most of the PPT operators and most of the Pirate supporters, again assuming Pirate does not pay, every single one of them will lose more than you can imagine. 50K+ BTC for some of them. This theory that those of us that supported him made any profit is total bullshit.
3) The Pirate situation has far reaching effects in the entire "financial sector" of the Bitcoin economy. Many of the people that borrowed BTC from me turned around and put it in BS&T accounts so many of my loans are now in default. In spite of this I have personally covered and made whole all but one of the people that had deposits with my lending business and I will be paying off that depositor as soon as my next $10K deposit clears the dwolla->gox gauntlet. There are a few individuals that made deposits into my BS&T account through me and their BTC is all tied up there. Every single one of them knew the risks and knew that I was not covering anything that was simply being passed through to BS&T.
4) A long time ago (in Bitcoin time) several of us got together and formed the first PPT on GLBSE more or less as an experiment to determine the market rate of deposits passed through to BS&T with a 25% insurance fund. Patrick decided to buy out all the partners - that was his decision. AFAIK anyone who has requested the 0.32 BTC payout on their PPT bonds has gotten them.
5) I do not live my life with the absolute certainty that Micon has. When I first heard about BS&T (it was called Pirate Saving and Trust back then) my first thought was that it was probably a ponzi. But instead of stopping there I did take the time to research it, talk to others, and eventually talk to Pirate himself in person about the business and was convinced it was not a ponzi. Based on that I felt OK being involved in the PPT zero coupon bonds.
6) My personal take on this is that either 1) Pirate lied to me (and everyone else) and it was/is a ponzi or 2) he told me the truth and it was legit but he has totally fucked up the shut down of the operations - a situation which should eventually resolve with us all getting all/most/some of our BTC back.
As far as a tag goes: if we end up with case 1) then "mark", "idiot", "taken", etc. might fit, if 2) then no tag is really need. But "scammer" would imply that I did not settle my debts, did not deliver goods promised, did not pay a bet, etc. I have done none of those things. All I have done is lost a boatload of BTC and by extension the same boatload of USD.
If I get nothing back from Pirate then I am basically broke and starting over - the Ponzi pals can all drink to that. Some larger Pirate supporters are even worse off and are in very large multi-year holes of debt - again, assuming no pay back from Pirate the Ponzi gang can feel justified in a big "I told you so".
As I said I am not as certain as many of the Ponzi pals and have taken a wait and see approach to this whole thing.
If Micon says anything interesting please quote if for me so I will see it.
I think pirate will pay, am I a scammer?
You missed the point.
The fact that these people were in close contact with Pirate says they know more than most. And also they also profited the most.
They should be held just as responsible as pirate himself.
Sucks huh to not even hit it as big as pirate and suffer the same consequences eh?
What do you fancy yourself as, some sort of righteous crusader chosen by your deity of choice to slay the evil Pirate and his henchmen? This is not a trivial game where you can just spam A and win. Reality has different rules. Claiming ridiculous axioms and drawing conclusions not logical even by those axioms won't get you anywhere. I want this resolved just as much as (perhaps more than) you do, but this approach is not going to work.
I would very much appreciate some information from BurtW, but please refrain from lynch mob mentality. Innocent until proven guilty. Conviction on circumstantial evidence is both utter nonsense and entirely useless.
How much did you have invested with pirate or a ppt?
Honestly, I was hoping for a more entertaining response. Darn.
I don't usually share my financial details with strangers on Internet forums. If that has become common practice, apparently I missed the memo.
When you've prepared an actual response to my post, rather than generic ad hominem reasoning, I'd love to hear it.
I think pirate will pay, am I a scammer?
You missed the point.
The fact that these people were in close contact with Pirate says they know more than most. And also they also profited the most.
They should be held just as responsible as pirate himself.
Sucks huh to not even hit it as big as pirate and suffer the same consequences eh?
What do you fancy yourself as, some sort of righteous crusader chosen by your deity of choice to slay the evil Pirate and his henchmen? This is not a trivial game where you can just spam A and win. Reality has different rules. Claiming ridiculous axioms and drawing conclusions not logical even by those axioms won't get you anywhere. I want this resolved just as much as (perhaps more than) you do, but this approach is not going to work.
I would very much appreciate some information from BurtW, but please refrain from lynch mob mentality. Innocent until proven guilty. Conviction on circumstantial evidence is both utter nonsense and entirely useless.
How much did you have invested with pirate or a ppt?
I think pirate will pay, am I a scammer?
No just an idiot. Luckily there is no tag for that.
While you are waiting for Pirate to pay be sure to max out your CC and get those funds into Rusty 3% per week investment. I mean 3400% might be too risky but "only" 465%? That's easy money!
I generally do not think that PPT operators should get scammer tags (unless of course they broke their contract or failed to pay back insured deposits)
That said, if there is anyone who does deserve a tag, it is BurtW, perhaps the biggest pirate shill on the forum.
He even promoted his PPT in the newbie forums: PIRATE Pass Through (PPT) bonds - outstanding returns for the small investors!
That said, if there is anyone who does deserve a tag, it is BurtW, perhaps the biggest pirate shill on the forum.
He even promoted his PPT in the newbie forums: PIRATE Pass Through (PPT) bonds - outstanding returns for the small investors!
I think pirate will pay, am I a scammer?
You missed the point.
The fact that these people were in close contact with Pirate says they know more than most. And also they also profited the most.
They should be held just as responsible as pirate himself.
Sucks huh to not even hit it as big as pirate and suffer the same consequences eh?
What do you fancy yourself as, some sort of righteous crusader chosen by your deity of choice to slay the evil Pirate and his henchmen? This is not a trivial game where you can just spam A and win. Reality has different rules. Claiming ridiculous axioms and drawing conclusions not logical even by those axioms won't get you anywhere. I want this resolved just as much as (perhaps more than) you do, but this approach is not going to work.
I would very much appreciate some information from BurtW, but please refrain from lynch mob mentality. Innocent until proven guilty. Conviction on circumstantial evidence is both utter nonsense and entirely useless.
This is missing the point of vouching for someone. That person fucks up and vanishes, remaining shit spreads to supporters. That's how social networks and webs of trust work.
Now, I'm not talking about "he's decent" or "so far, dealing with him was good" type of posts. The statement "It's not a Ponzi" needs a very good explanation now.
Now, I'm not talking about "he's decent" or "so far, dealing with him was good" type of posts. The statement "It's not a Ponzi" needs a very good explanation now.
This is the heart of the matter. If someone defended Pirate by simply saying something like, "well, he's always paid me on time," they've clearly done nothing wrong.
But when someone belligerently counters any suggestion of the fraud by asserting its uprightness and even casting aspersions on the skeptic, you're dealing with someone who helped Pirate defraud the community. Chances are good that you're also dealing with someone who knew damn well that they would only make a profit if more people bought in (i.e., someone who at least suspected it was a Ponzi). Why else spend so much time in service of someone else's fraud?
Quote
And yes, AFAIK there's no proof these 10k BTC ever existed. It makes zero sense from the start: be so sure about it, but start pass-throughs long before digging up a 10k investment?
BurtW's supposed well-timed sale of his pass-through business is also suggestive. I think he not only knew it was a scam, but saw the writing on the wall and unwound his position as it crumbled. Or he can show us the transactions otherwise.
I think pirate will pay, am I a scammer?
You missed the point.
The fact that these people were in close contact with Pirate says they know more than most. And also they also profited the most.
They should be held just as responsible as pirate himself.
Sucks huh to not even hit it as big as pirate and suffer the same consequences eh?
BurtW is an honest businessman, having dealt with him personally.
That's all I have to say.
That's all I have to say.
I think pirate will pay, am I a scammer?
I say give all the PPTs scammer tags. They help perpetrate this whole Bullshit and Trust.
They all profited off of it. I say they are just as guilty as pirate.
They all profited off of it. I say they are just as guilty as pirate.
Up until a few weeks ago, I would have vouched for Pirate, I bought a few hundred BTC from him with MoneyPak on BTC-OTC in the last few years, does this make me eligible for a scammer tag too?
did you issue many bonds and promote his system to everyone that would listen?
BurtW bragged in my original giant Ponzi thread that he coined the term "Pirate Pass-through" - he is one of the few that I believe knew all along what type of scam this was, and decided to profit by running his pass-through.
Easy scammer tag here.
Up until a few weeks ago, I would have vouched for Pirate, I bought a few hundred BTC from him with MoneyPak on BTC-OTC in the last few years, does this make me eligible for a scammer tag too?
BurtW totally deserves the scammer take.
multiple PPT bonds, put "Pirate is not a Ponzi" in his signature while knowing damn well it's a scam in the hopes of tricking the low-hanging fruit into shipping more BTC.
he continues to troll the scam-victims with this shameful shill thread created right before the Pirate collapse: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--97094
profited small while helping the largest BTC scammer in history profit $5M+ and doing so while knowing what he was doing the whole time. Extremely deserved scammer tag.
multiple PPT bonds, put "Pirate is not a Ponzi" in his signature while knowing damn well it's a scam in the hopes of tricking the low-hanging fruit into shipping more BTC.
he continues to troll the scam-victims with this shameful shill thread created right before the Pirate collapse: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--97094
profited small while helping the largest BTC scammer in history profit $5M+ and doing so while knowing what he was doing the whole time. Extremely deserved scammer tag.
You should make it a poll to see if other agree.
Jeffry Picower made more off of Madoff's ponzi than anyone, including Madoff. After his death in 2009, the US Federal government went after his estates assets and got a settlement for $7.2 billion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffry_Picower
I don't think you can really issue a scammer tag for that. Up until recently hundreds of BTC Talk users would have vouched for Pirate, do you want to give them all scammer tags too? The guy is free to have his opinions.
This is missing the point of vouching for someone. That person fucks up and vanishes, remaining shit spreads to supporters. That's how social networks and webs of trust work.
Now, I'm not talking about "he's decent" or "so far, dealing with him was good" type of posts. The statement "It's not a Ponzi" needs a very good explanation now.
And yes, AFAIK there's no proof these 10k BTC ever existed. It makes zero sense from the start: be so sure about it, but start pass-throughs long before digging up a 10k investment?
I could hardly care less about the scammer tag though. Trust isn't created by the mighty forum admins, they seem to let about anything pass on here. But look at the people who do real business. Most of them don't touch the funny bond markets with a ten foot pole, and often enough give their opinions on people involved in it.
What makes you think that this supposed 10,000 BTC account actually exists?
he continues to troll the scam-victims with this shameful shill thread created right before the Pirate collapse: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--97094
He is still... I cannot believe my eyes
For that he'd deserve a "sad troll" tag, much like Matthew would
Seems like he is indicating he feels his "bet" is now a loss. See the tagline "I will bet you I lost more than you did.".
So you're saying he should be labelled a scammer for losing 10,000 BTC of his own money?
I don't think you can really issue a scammer tag for that. Up until recently hundreds of BTC Talk users would have vouched for Pirate, do you want to give them all scammer tags too? The guy is free to have his opinions.
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