bustadice – Next Generation Dice - page 20.

JollyGood

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Quote from: devans on October 01, 2019, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 05:26:17 AM

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

(...)

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

I explained my reasoning for not providing an advance notice in bustabit's thread:

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 12:48:01 PM

Giving an advance notice is something I considered, but ultimately decided against because it would have made virtually no difference to existing investors. Had I announced the change a few months ago your only options would have been to remain invested or divest, the same options you have now.

Having an unnecessarily large bankroll is not an advantage. For one it's an unnecessary liability. All other things being equal I'd rather be responsible for 3,000 BTC or 4,000 BTC of investors' money than 5,000 BTC or more. It also indicates that the casino is charging investors below market value. Ideally the bankroll is just large enough to support all bets that players want to place and no larger. First and foremost bustadice is a casino and its players the customers, so attracting a large bankroll is not the end goal but the means to the end of allowing our players to bet.

I referenced the explanation you gave and thanked you for it.

Anyway it seems you are going full steam ahead and from what can be seen here there are a few investors that have expressed some reservations but there is no flood of complaints or grievances. If the profits still provide a good return for investors even after dropping approximately 33% then surely they would remain rather than pull their funds out.

devans

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Quote from: redsun114 on October 01, 2019, 10:41:13 AM

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 03:58:08 AM

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

So, this change looks like its gonna be a bit more "less risk less reward" for investors and "more risk more reward" for gamblers, did I get it correctly? Sorry I am not a big math guy and English is my second language so I may not get all of it right.

From the looks of it, investors will not have to share commissions on losses, which is a great deal for the investors, however they will share a bigger pie when gamblers lose, which kinda means to me that they will have less risk which is always awesome but it will have less rewards as well, kinda understandable if you ask me.

On the gambler side only thing that changes is the ability to be able to wager higher bets and that's about it, which means if they can bet bigger they could win bigger or lose bigger as well, so higher risk but higher rewards as well. Let's wait and see how these changes will impact on investors and gamblers in long run so that they may decide further.

Yeah, that's the gist of it. It's worth clarifying that the higher limits don't affect the majority of players, i.e. the "more risk more reward" part only applies to players that actually make use of the new limits.

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Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 03:58:08 AM

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

So, this change looks like its gonna be a bit more "less risk less reward" for investors and "more risk more reward" for gamblers, did I get it correctly? Sorry I am not a big math guy and English is my second language so I may not get all of it right.

From the looks of it, investors will not have to share commissions on losses, which is a great deal for the investors, however they will share a bigger pie when gamblers lose, which kinda means to me that they will have less risk which is always awesome but it will have less rewards as well, kinda understandable if you ask me.

On the gambler side only thing that changes is the ability to be able to wager higher bets and that's about it, which means if they can bet bigger they could win bigger or lose bigger as well, so higher risk but higher rewards as well. Let's wait and see how these changes will impact on investors and gamblers in long run so that they may decide further.

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Quote from: GamblingSiteFinder on October 01, 2019, 09:55:09 AM

Quote from: Sirait on October 01, 2019, 09:01:26 AM

Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 07:49:40 AM

Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

a commission lowered does not mean your money is stolen. in a few months, you will definitely get a profit and the 2% commission we paid at the beginning is definitely back. I believe the reduction in commission is only to balance company funds.

stealing is if your money is really gone. I was on the neutral side, and only helped to set the record straight.

Were there terms in the FAQ that said the Bustabit bankroll investing structure would/could be changed at a moment's notice?

You're right that it isn't stealing, but it's also not what investors agreed to when they joined.

The terms of service state that they can be revised at any time. In addition there is precedent for changing the terms in the past (e.g. lowering and increasing the dilution fee, lowering permitted leverage).

That being said, if anybody recently invested and would not have done so had they known about the change in commission structure I would be happy to reimburse them for the net dilution fee they paid.

devans

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Quote from: JollyGood on October 01, 2019, 05:26:17 AM

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

(...)

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

I explained my reasoning for not providing an advance notice in bustabit's thread:

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 12:48:01 PM

Giving an advance notice is something I considered, but ultimately decided against because it would have made virtually no difference to existing investors. Had I announced the change a few months ago your only options would have been to remain invested or divest, the same options you have now.

Having an unnecessarily large bankroll is not an advantage. For one it's an unnecessary liability. All other things being equal I'd rather be responsible for 3,000 BTC or 4,000 BTC of investors' money than 5,000 BTC or more. It also indicates that the casino is charging investors below market value. Ideally the bankroll is just large enough to support all bets that players want to place and no larger. First and foremost bustadice is a casino and its players the customers, so attracting a large bankroll is not the end goal but the means to the end of allowing our players to bet.

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Quote from: Sirait on October 01, 2019, 09:01:26 AM

Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 07:49:40 AM

Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

a commission lowered does not mean your money is stolen. in a few months, you will definitely get a profit and the 2% commission we paid at the beginning is definitely back. I believe the reduction in commission is only to balance company funds.

stealing is if your money is really gone. I was on the neutral side, and only helped to set the record straight.

Were there terms in the FAQ that said the Bustabit bankroll investing structure would/could be changed at a moment's notice?

You're right that it isn't stealing, but it's also not what investors agreed to when they joined.

Sirait

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Quote from: leen1993 on October 01, 2019, 07:49:40 AM

Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

a commission lowered does not mean your money is stolen. in a few months, you will definitely get a profit and the 2% commission we paid at the beginning is definitely back. I believe the reduction in commission is only to balance company funds.

stealing is if your money is really gone. I was on the neutral side, and only helped to set the record straight.

leen1993

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Imo this is theft from the investors.
We paid 2% of our investment amount to get in and get on average .75% of each bet and suddenly this gets lowered to 0.5%.

JollyGood

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Quote from: Timetwister on October 01, 2019, 01:28:54 AM

No investor would ever prefer this formula. This is essentially dropping our expected returns by 1/3.

That is the part that confuses me, in essence if investor profits drop by an estimated 33% then it should have investors concerned but devans thinks he has the correct formula to take Bustabit/Bustadice further and to be honest it is hard to argue with him because of his excellent track record. How do investors reconcile perfectly held belief and trust in devans along with a drop in profits by 33% - that is something difficult to accept.

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 12:27:34 PM

Although I'm sure at least a few of them appreciate the reduced variance, there's no doubt that most investors prefer the old commission structure. I anticipate that some investors will choose to divest because of this. As long as the bankroll remains large enough to support the wagers players want to place that's okay.

At 5,000+ BTC and 6,500+ respectively the bankrolls of both bustadice and bustabit are significantly larger than they need to be, which indicates that a higher commission is appropriate. As the bankroll shrinks–hopefully to a more sane size–investing becomes more attractive until eventually an equilibrium is reached again.

I think keeping the equilibrium aside several investors are a little upset they were not advised beforehand or maybe even consulted before the changes were made. I know you made a post explaining your reasons so I hope they would be satisfied with the explanation.

Is it really necessary to say that 5000+ BTC and 6500 BTC are significantly larger bankrolls than they need to be? Another way of looking at it is the size of bankrolls are advantages and are attractive to investors in that others would want to invest as it shows the website and its owner are genuine/trustworthy etc. Maybe a change in format should have been implemented after consulting investors so that would have eased the transition better.

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 09:11:49 AM

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 03:58:08 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 02:59:23 AM

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't understand what you meant by "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share".

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

Sorry, "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share" means 50% profit commission. I should have worded the question more appropriately.

When you say "bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did", did you run it past investors for their views? May I ask what the primary reasons were for the change? If you already had a working and highly successful formula on your hands alongside an excellent reputation why change the format when it might alienate some investors?

If you have thought this through and believe all investors will prefer this route then I wish you success. I see your reputation and the Bustabit/Bustadice reputation as something quite formidable in crypto gaming circles so hopefully investors will be go with the flow.

No investor would ever prefer this formula. This is essentially dropping our expected returns by 1/3.

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Quote from: dbshck on August 21, 2019, 09:21:13 AM

Quote from: Lakai01 on August 21, 2019, 09:19:01 AM

Hi devans!
First of all I like the look and feel of bustadice very much, its one of the most professional looking sites out there in my opinion. Windice eg. shows the amount of total bets played, total users online etc. at the top of the page. Are there such statistics anywhere at bustadice, couldnt find them

https://bustadice.com/statistics
https://dicesites.com/bustadice

Yes i also see this platform.thanks for known this platform

devans

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 09:11:49 AM

Sorry, "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share" means 50% profit commission. I should have worded the question more appropriately.

When you say "bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did", did you run it past investors for their views? May I ask what the primary reasons were for the change? If you already had a working and highly successful formula on your hands alongside an excellent reputation why change the format when it might alienate some investors?

If you have thought this through and believe all investors will prefer this route then I wish you success. I see your reputation and the Bustabit/Bustadice reputation as something quite formidable in crypto gaming circles so hopefully investors will be go with the flow.

Although I'm sure at least a few of them appreciate the reduced variance, there's no doubt that most investors prefer the old commission structure. I anticipate that some investors will choose to divest because of this. As long as the bankroll remains large enough to support the wagers players want to place that's okay.

At 5,000+ BTC and 6,500+ respectively the bankrolls of both bustadice and bustabit are significantly larger than they need to be, which indicates that a higher commission is appropriate. As the bankroll shrinks–hopefully to a more sane size–investing becomes more attractive until eventually an equilibrium is reached again.

JollyGood

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Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 03:58:08 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 02:59:23 AM

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't understand what you meant by "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share".

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

Sorry, "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share" means 50% profit commission. I should have worded the question more appropriately.

When you say "bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did", did you run it past investors for their views? May I ask what the primary reasons were for the change? If you already had a working and highly successful formula on your hands alongside an excellent reputation why change the format when it might alienate some investors?

If you have thought this through and believe all investors will prefer this route then I wish you success. I see your reputation and the Bustabit/Bustadice reputation as something quite formidable in crypto gaming circles so hopefully investors will be go with the flow.

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 02:59:23 AM

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't understand what you meant by "what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share".

Both bustadice and bustabit now charge a 50% commission on net profits instead of a 0.25% commission on every wager. That means that bankroll investors have less variance now but also receive less EV than they previously did.

Timetwister

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 02:33:08 AM

Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:58:04 AM

As announced, bustadice will start charging the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustadice will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustadice would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

Which format worked out better and would give more net income on average for investors: Bustabit taking 0.25% commission on all wagers or what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share?

Investors were getting 75% of what the casino was expected to make. Now, only 50%, essentially dropping expected returns by 1/3.

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Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 02:39:22 AM

Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 02:33:08 AM

Which format worked out better and would give more net income on average for investors: Bustabit taking 0.25% commission on all wagers or what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share?

In terms of expected value it doesn't matter whether a 0.25% commission is taken on wagers or a 25% commission is taken on net profits. In both cases investors can expect to earn the same over an extended period of time. However, a 25% commission on profits is more favorable than a 0.25% commission on wagers because it has less variance.

I may have misunderstood your question, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry please re-read the post, you are mentioning 50% profit commission for Bustabit: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.52601119

And in the post above you are mentioning 25% profit commission for Bustabit. Can you please clarify which it is?

devans

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Quote from: JollyGood on September 30, 2019, 02:33:08 AM

Which format worked out better and would give more net income on average for investors: Bustabit taking 0.25% commission on all wagers or what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share?

In terms of expected value it doesn't matter whether a 0.25% commission is taken on wagers or a 25% commission is taken on net profits. In both cases investors can expect to earn the same over an extended period of time. However, a 25% commission on profits is more favorable than a 0.25% commission on wagers because it has less variance.

I may have misunderstood your question, so correct me if I'm wrong.

JollyGood

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Quote from: devans on September 30, 2019, 01:58:04 AM

As announced, bustadice will start charging the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustadice will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustadice would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

Which format worked out better and would give more net income on average for investors: Bustabit taking 0.25% commission on all wagers or what remains of their share after Bustabit deducts its share?

devans

sr. member

Activity: 528

Merit: 368

As announced, bustadice will start charging the bankroll a 50% commission on future net profits instead of the previous 0.25% commission on all wagers. This will have the immediate effect of increasing the wager and profit limits for players while simultaneously decreasing variance for investors at the the expense of reducing their expected value.

Whenever the bankroll's profit exceeds its previous high point, bustadice will receive 50% of the profits beyond the high point. No commission is collected on profits below the high point. For example, say the bankroll's profit high point is 100 BTC, its current profit is 99 BTC and players combined lose a total of 4 BTC in a round. 3 BTC of that is net profit (exceeding the previous all-time high), so bustadice would receive 1.5 BTC and the remaining 2.5 BTC would go to the bankroll. The commission is charged in real time, so investors can continue to invest and divest whenever they like.

For players, nothing changes other than the wager and profit limits increasing by a third as mentioned above.

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