Topic: Calling all Bitcoiners: SPEAK OUT against CIRCLE! - page 3. (Read 6810 times)

Who cares, deal with them if you want.

Why are you trying to make a choice for others.

There are perfectly reasonable uses of CoinJoin or stealth addresses that have nothing to do with any kind of law breaking, even Benjamin Lawsky has stated exactly this. Just because you're hiding your big bitcoin bills from some people you send money to, doesn't automatically mean you're hiding it from tax collectors too. Get a grip.

100% ! 

and all "geeks" (we) can use bitcoin-qt or whatever we like and have fun but the masses need companys like circle.

Classic bitcointalk...

Same thing over and over again when a major service provider pops up.

The number of newbies with strong feelings about Circle is rather remarkable.

To the OP,

You don't like Adobe Flash, I get it.  But I trust someone who has been involved in major companies over a FUDster who considers himself a Sherlock Holmes villain wannabee who promotes distrust of government, money laundering, and privacy software from the anarchist makers who brought you the 3D printed handgun.  Is all of that going to take Bitcoin mainstream?  I'm all for privacy, but not for enabling fraud.

I would trust Coinbase and Circle any day before I would trust you or your shady companies.

You bash and spread FUD about them because they are competition to your websites.   At first, I thought you were just deluded, but I see now that you have an agenda.

You hide behind anonymity while Allaire will stand in front of crowds of people, trying to improve the ecosytem and ensure that Bitcoin becomes mainstream.  Circle wants to make Bitcoin easier to use, free, and safe.  That helps Bitcoin, and therefore all of us that support it, benefit. 

You don't like it?  Then don't use them.  But don't tell me what companies to use or trust.  I'll take them over your bitlaundering operation.   




 

Their entire goal is to centralize control of Bitcoin as much as humanly possible.
Seriously, beware the Trojan horse...

With all of their supposed talent and capital, they could have been something great for Bitcoin. Instead, they're going out of their way to encourage/invite excessive regulations that only favor the old money, the old bankers, and all of our other old masters.

the other thing to note. the OP moriarty hates circle and coinbase, for these reasons
1. asking for customers to deposit funds
2. being regulated
3. customer ID

he made his circle arument in the OP and this coinbase argument

yet one of moriartys own scams is a bitplastic, requiring funds deposits to be held on his site, customers home address details, and if legit regulation

such a scamming hypocrit

Stay away from everything Circle does and everything they stand for. Jeremy Allaire, and the rest of his Old Establishment executive team -- former GS execs, government agents, etc -- will attempt to completely destroy Bitcoin from within... if we let them.

the most hypocritical think here is that the OP (moriarty*) has many scammer tags against his name, he self publicises his scams, but remains hidden. no legit business should hide the real life details of the CEO.

moriarty has scammed many people on many dates and has told each of them that some how they were systematically targeted out of all his customers and that one person was hacked that day,

then other days another individual was systematically targeted.. Pfft thats worse excuse then karpales

*note the pseudonym word play, much like trendon shavers 'pirate' (scallywag stealing peoples riches in the international waters)
moriarty: sherlock holmes character that is a crominal with a network of criminal activity he can access easily
OP moriarty: "bitcoin business network"

In my opinion the main point is that, regardless of what you think of Circle, you are not forced to use it, let alone use it all the time.

Those who have secret off-shore accounts with lots of money have also a local bank account and use it like everyone else. Note that not having a local bank account would attract attention. They keep a little money in their local bank account, and use it for daily expenses.

I think this is a good metaphor for Circle.

Why are people so against freedom of choice. Services like this are going to be necessary for widespread adoption, period.

and

Moriartybitcoin
at: http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/exclusive-interview-bitcoin-networks-dr-michael-moriarty-stanford-phd-becomes-bitcoins-doc-ock/2014/05/17
Moriartybitcoin
"...We’re launching an anonymous exchanging service at CoinChimp.com to enable people to buy and sell bitcoin easily and anonymously with fiat money.  We encourage people to withdraw the Bitcoin they buy from us to an electrum wallet on their laptop.  This is a fairly challenging venture for us, but we hope to provide an alternative to the big exchanges like CoinBase.  None of the sites on my network require ID verification and we report absolutely NOTHING to government agencies..."


Slightly edited.

 Dear Moriartybitcoin,

 Thank you for sharing your opinions and I for one am glad your here in the Decentralized Monetary Revolution. And thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs. I mean that. But I do disagree with some of your positions such as being concerned about government interventions or any regulations.

 Best of luck on your businesses Moriartybitcoin, and I wouldn't fret over Circle, Coinbase or any other financial services businesses that you deem to be 'too centralizing and/or too conforming' from what I gathered you believe after quickly reviewing the article at the link above.

 I firmly believe everyone that is briefed on Decentralized currencies will be in favor of them existing along side the worlds various legal tender currencies except the 0.01% whom thrives under the current repressive and exploitative Central Banking Schemes. And even that 0.01% is powerless to stop Bitcoin no matter what. Their best off adoring it instead too.

 As for where Circle will earn their money, it's obviously going to earn it somehow, likely in many forms and fashions. Circle surely has devised alternative means, and as long as their markup to and from Bitcoin is not excessive their likely to thrive no matter what else as long as it's extremely well managed.


NEXT:

 Bitcoin is much like a corporation that cannot be killed. There is nothing to fear with Bitcoin for anyone. Nor any Bitcoin businesses. There are over 7 billion souls onboard this ship called earth. That's a whole lot of potential customers. Just ask Microsoft or Google about that, and they both 'Get Bitoin' too, bigtime. Hurray!


 The current, main point is to let everyone have an escape hatch from failing fiat currency schemes.
==============================================================

Only civilized, caring, decent, moral societies will allow it.
Fine, the rest can do Bitcoin Underground, anonymously, securely.
Many Bitcoin Business Opportunities for those with lots of talent.
So Wonderful.
Much to do.
Enjoy.


 Now just don't go screwing the pooch and muck things up for yourselves.

 There is big business to take care of. Do it wisely, prudently, and don't dare get sloppy nor take any shortcuts.

 Do it as flawlessly as possible.


Next:

 China will never be able to stop it's subjects from buying/selling/trading Bitcoins. That's another place where anonymous financial service's can come in to play, hugely into play, in various ways.

 Today Bitcoin is the best and easiest way to get larger amounts of funds out of China but then there is also the need for conversion to another currency type quite often too. For that reason alone Bitcoin will thrive in China and beyond, legal or not, to even merely possess it, in such places. That will be the theme for any country that dare try's to outlaw or ban Cryptocurrencies. They will ultimately fail: the entire country will fail (their governments will fall).


 But...


 NO GOVERNMENTS can hope to stop Bitcoin, ever.
================================


 Bitcoin is out of the bottle, and no one can possibly stop it or put it back into the bottle no matter what. I firmly believe that. And no amount of FUD is going to sway me either. Developers will take care of Bitcoin, and keep it safe from every possible threat throughout the future years, decades and centuries ahead. Bitcoin too will evolve and keep getting stronger. Until eventually something outpaces it. That's extremely likely a long ways off. Bitcoin has already proven to be the Ebay of Currencies. Bitcoin is THE WINNER, hands down. I hedged my bets for 2013, and then in January 2014 I declared Bitcoin hands down THE WINNER. It will likely take the lion's share of the marketplace. But there is room for a few serious competitors, which by the way is best for Bitcoin.

 Competition isn't a sin. - J. Paul Getty was wrong. Competition is what makes us thrive, what makes things better, what causes innovations such as Bitcoin and this Decentralized Revolution starting with Bitcoin.


 Neither can our Evil Banksters hope to stop Bitcoin either. Finally some scientist(s) found at way to neuter our real masters (Banksters).
======================================================================================

 God bless Satoshi Nakamoto - is a person or group of people who created the Bitcoin protocol and reference software, Bitcoin Core.


Next:

 The Banksters too can all enormously benefit from bitcoin and grow into it too, just like everyone last person on this earth. This is their escape from their past too, if only their wise enough to do so. And it's either that or elimination from the scene. They have a choice, evolve or fail. Finally governments too are entirely fed up with their real masters (Banksters - Central Banks). The Central Banks are not stupid, they know this. And they failed all of their mission objectives these last 100 years. Their track record speaks volumes. For that matter so do the majority of Bitcoin startups so far. Let's be wise enough not to be insane (Doing the same thing over and over, and then expecting better results eventually). Unfettered greed and fraud has again destroyed our worlds. Lets start anew, and not be insane focusing on greed while practicing fraud and other dubious schemes. Get real, or step aside because major deep pockets are rushing into bitcoin, in a huge way. And like Circle it's all hush hush until WHAM.


Next:

 Just imagine not having the governments of this world being forced to paying interest on their debts through the issued of debt based fiat schemes. Just imagine the savings that will bring to every last country!!! And yes...the Banks can still make earnings and have a place, or be Nationalized. Either way we all win, except the 0.01% that will be forced to get by on a bit less than before.

 ex: Today the USA spends nearly HALF a TRILLION Dollars per year just on Interest payments, and that's at all time record low interest rates. Soon these monetary schemes end as so termed QE to Infinity soon causes unsustainable amounts of debts and especially unsustainable interest payments. Then quickly officials get together again (*already they did that 3 times in the last century alone), and they will quickly launch new schemes and debt restructuring. We wont collapse, instead things will restructure, maybe bring out new currency(s), surely many bond holders will finally be forced to take severe haircuts. But it will certainly be financially painful, and painful in many other ways for most. Financial Depressions suck. We have been in a slow motion Depression since the Spring or FALL of 2000. That's 15 years of can kicking. Their experts at that. Even I underestimated their can kicking talents as well as their ability to change the rules for themselves retroactively by turning their losing wagers into winning wagers. (Privatizing the Profits, and Socializing the Losses).

 Until that happens - (quickly launch new monetary schemes and debt restructuring) - we need educate many others so that finally governments too wise up and OUTLAW DEBT BASED FIAT entirely when our current monetary systems finally implodes.

 But outlawed or not there is nothing to fear per say. YES: Many will be forced to start over. We all get a hard monetary reboot. Haircuts for all, some much worse than others.

 Bitcoin is seemingly immune, except from other marketplace forces such as over leveraged global marketplace traders that are quickly forced to make MARGIN CALLS. Been their done that. And sometimes like in 2008 finally Brokers get ruthless and don't give a Margin Call, but instead CLOSE OUT THE Traders TRADES to cover losses, and thus completely wipe out the Traders trades; which often results in horrific losses in the case of futures and options trades that would have gone on to win huge. Been there done that too. But at least I knew that was possible beforehand, thank goodness. (*read the fine print of your brokers margin agreements).

 Thus the real need for Bitcoin and other Hard Assets, and not be over leveraged either, and having a few brokerage accounts at various firms, and hopefully the most solvent ones that don't end up robbing clients at the worst possible times. But that is asking a bit much (hint). Even housing debtors finally learned about over leveraged home debt rather recently. So yes, painful is this ongoing situation for almost everyone.

  Yet governments can easily back the trucks up so to speak and steal the gold from the vaults, and even seize various properties through various schemes, or put them on lien in return for loans as governments often do. They can also nationalize pensions and retirement accounts as some have already done. And many more schemes, including seizing Bitcoins maybe, if they can get to them, lol..NOT. As the saying goes "The last actions of governments is often looting their populations of their wealth and savings".


Back on Topic:
-----------------

 Companies such as Circle and Coinbase are not the enemy, and should they ever be so unkind and so unethical, as well as unwise then may the Regulators drop a very heavy hammer on them and much more.


 PEOPLE NEED Bitcoin. And people need both so termed "conforming financial services" and some people believe they need so termed "anonymous financial services". Surely those trying to escape from North Korea, China, or any other extremely repressive and exploitative regime needs a way to transfer their wealth in utter relative safety, given the correct tools to fully escape as in tact as possible. Especially those not in the inner circle of the politics of such regimes.

 
 Moriartybitcoin, Those like yourself may ALSO fret over the possibility of governments wise enough to finally launch their own centralized, or semi-centralized, or even fully Decentralized Cryptocurrencies. Don't believe for a second that they will ever replace or outpace those such as Bitcoin.

 We here at Bitcoin have had a real taste of Monetary FREEDOM. It's spelled "BITCOIN is FREEDOM" a term I also recently coined. Feel free to use it often. It's as simple as that. Bitcoin is Freedom.

 Toss in that in emergencies and at other times governments sometimes need larger amounts of capital than revenue raised and well yes, governments have a real need for either their own currencies (legal tender for all debts) or the ability to instantly acquire them in some fashion. I would rather they not do so termed 'bail-in's' by stealing monies out of every savings and money market account while leaving demand accounts also termed 'checking accounts' let unscathed except for those with much larger balances. But one way or another government must also pay their bills. All said and done, BITCOIN is our FREEDOM. And unlike Gold that seed phrase in Electrum is FREEDOM of worry that anyone can steal one's Digital Gold 2.0 (Bitcoin) unless utilized on a compromised computer.


 A man once said 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself'.
====================================


 As for the competition: The mark of the best business people are the one's that win with class. Not many have real class in the heat of business battles and serious competitive threats. Learn to operate with Class, it will aid you, not harm you. As the saying goes: Never let them see you sweat!

  In business or on a Poker table not many display real class or grace while under direct attack or what not. That includes no bashing others while offering no solid foundations for why they should be excluded from thought (calling them scams, etc).

 I see zero reasons so far to exclude Circle unless they refuse to publicly offer their Business Address (PO Box is fine), and at least a Fax number, plus the name of their Insurer so that insurance coverage can be verified for those that care to do all their due diligence while leaving larger amounts at Circle in trust that it's prudently truly insured against reasonable losses while full well spelling out all exclusions there of.

 But me, I wont utilize any Anonymous Service that cannot be located nor then held accountable for fraud, etc. Personally I have no need for them, I hope I never do, but I suppose anything is possible. But some others surely do have those needs.

Anonymous or not...Verify. Legit or not...Verify. Burn that in people. ALWAYS VERIFY. Never blindly trust or take anyone or anything at Face Value. For too many in these parts have been far too gullible. But wisdom comes with age, unfortunately. Forgive yourself, and look forward, never look back. And at least fully learn from your mistakes.


As for Circle...
-----------------

 I am still listening for why we cannot trust the CEO of Circle. So far no one has given any reasons for why we cannot trust him.
================================================================================


 But toss out these silly 'too centralized nonsense' issues that could allow governments to swoop in. What nonsense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 And if they dared all hell would break loose onto those governments in so many ways that their likely to be hung in public like another leader recently was. Or at the very least then surely even the main stream fools would finally realize this is full blown Bankster/Corporate Fascism and a full blown Police State, what a day that would be! In other words 'their kinder and gentler' than that. Their willing to let others play too. In fact their in love with Bitcoin too from the looks of things. After all no one likes our true Masters (ie: Banksters, aka: the Owners of Central Banks).

 Even some of the biggest Bankers in Hong Kong this week displayed much interest for Bitcoin. Or didn't one receive that memo either?


 Let's all do our best to compete with class. ex: Just like the classiest gentlemen in poker. Instead of like mere brats. It will only help yourselves and your Bitcoin Businesses, as well as help Bitcoin thrive.


OKAY:
-------

 Sure, 'too centralized' isn't entirely nonsense, but to those like myself it's entirely a non issue that can't possibly be detrimental to Bitcoin. Nothing can. Setbacks? Sure, plenty. These Coinbase's and Circle's though are NOT a setback, but instead a vast improvement very much desired.

 Writing this reply here is yet another setback and cause of losing my focus and burn up time so now I will instead help educate those not privy in this long winded reply, purposely very long winded.

NOW THEN:

 For more paranoid types (maybe the wrong term) and many other needs by certain people? then sure, anonymous, shadowy, unreachable, and untouchable Financial Services have their places for various underground folks. Especially for criminals, drug traffickers and tax cheats. Thanks, but no thanks,

 I don't what my funds possibly going down with those ships when their servers get raided just like Silk Road's servers finally did. And as soon as any of these attract enough business the governments tend to finally go after them, that is just as soon as their is a huge kitty of loot to grab!

 As for the electronic trails, well lets just say things may not end well for many doing business at those types of firms. Maybe quick turnarounds (in and out) would be wise in those types of places instead. Still I find no reason to utilize them myself up to this point in time. But I suppose anything is possible these days...

 I have no dog in this race. I have no connection to any business concerning Bitcoin. I am retired, in my 50's. Just in case anyone wonders.

 Yes, for certain folks there are anonymous, shadowy Financial Services available that are in demand for some types, and always will be in demand from some types. But their not direct competitors with Circle and Coinbase, not hardly. Not even remotely in the scheme of things, but they may compliment themselves by drawing from the same classes of folks that see the need for both of them. These businesses are as different as cats and dogs, actually much more different that that!


On to a topic we agree on:

 It's way past time to end DEBT BASED Fiat, especially ones loaned to governments from Central Banks whom are merely parasitical monsters. Yes they are the enemy, but not Circle, Coinbase or Bitstamp. On that lone count owrrying about Circle, Coinbase and Bitstamp I find you more than a bit far too concerned.

 Case in point: If the governments dared to seize any widespread Bitcoins at these so termed Easy to Grab accounts it would only cause further increases in value of the remaining Bitcoins. In other words almost no matter what Bitcoin wins, but yes there is always risk. Today with bonds, dollars, yen, euro's, pounds and many other currencies there is far more risks, than with Bitcoins. Unless of course one hands their private keys (Bitcoins) over to someone else to manage/save/store/. But if one is clueless that is what one should likely do unless one has very informed friends and can afford a couple of used pc's dedicated for the cause.

 Even attempting 51% attacks or out right purchasing up the vast majority of Bitcoins to disable it is an act of futility. Sure governments like Communist (Dictatorship) Red China can outright BAN/Outlaw it. But then it merely goes underground which is exactly what over 7  Billion folks across the world would still run to (Bitcoin) after they finally learn all about Bitcoin (Gold 2.0).

 Face it, Bitcoin is out of the bottle, and no one can put the Genie (Bitcoin) back into the bottle. Satoshi's Bitcoin is pure genius.



 Yes, major, deep pocket, big guns are finally arriving in earnest in 2014.
==============================================

 2014 & 2015 are the Real YEARS OF BITCOIN
-----------------------------------------------------

 My hat is off to moriartybitcoin and Circle's CEO both.

 May the best services win and I am certain that both these different styles can co-exist, and both thrive very much if only they are prudently and carefully well managed (that's the toughest part, but then the rough is merely a mental thing right? Or is that just for the Winners?)


 After all Bill Gates stated 'business is not that hard'.


 Indeed, for Microsoft, Google, and finally Apple and Bitcoin too Business isn't hard, Care to join, lol...



EDIT: Update:
Moriartybitcoin
at: http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/exclusive-interview-bitcoin-networks-dr-michael-moriarty-stanford-phd-becomes-bitcoins-doc-ock/2014/05/17
Moriartybitcoin
"...Do not trust large Bitcoin companies which are working within the worldwide banking infrastructure, such as Circle, BitStamp, CoinBase etc.  Just like MtGox, they are hugely dangerous to Bitcoin itself, tending to become ponzi schemes or vulnerable to shut-down by government agencies.  These venture-capital-funded darlings should be boycotted.  LocalBitcoins.com is still an excellent place to buy and sell Bitcoins anonymously, as are smaller exchanges like CoinChimp.com.  For storing Bitcoins, I recommend downloading Electrum which is easy to use.  Do not store Bitcoins online at a large exchange.  MtGox users should have learned their lesson by now..."

 Okay, a reasonable statement here. But with insured accounts from credible, solvent insurance companies with policies that don't have flaky exclusions I see no reason why mainstream Bitcoin adopters cannot utilize these types of services for their "checking accounts/spending accounts" for ease of use, and for purchasing their savings bitcoins too, as long as they can of course withdraw those Bitcoins to their very own wallets where those customers retain their own private keys/wallet pass-phrases.

 Electrum too is very exciting an I am glad it's turning out fine so far. Even I am about to utilize it too, finally. (I tend to let others test the unknown first, and not dive straight in, after all I am not a developer). But since punch cards I have utilized computers, and since the days of DOS I have utilized PC's constantly, and since 1991 I have been Online. In fact I was one of the first Online Stock traders on a personal PC at the worlds first brokerage that offered such services. So yea, I used to take a lot of chances, lol. But the last programming I ever did was 34 years ago, no thanks...

 There are young racers and old racers, but there are not any old, bold racers!



 No one can "centralize nor control Bitcoin". Even though some claim it's possible it's NOT Possible. Bitcoin is Free, at large, all over the world.

 But as always we can merely trust others to a point; and that point is MONEY. In others words: Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware! That is how I first signed all my replies and posts here at bitcointalk.org. But now my posts end a bit more eloquently since of course many now likely much better understand why this old fart used to sign my posts the way I did (sadly or not).

 Sure, we cannot save fools from themselves. But we can sure all learn from mistakes.
Be extra wary trusting anyone with your monies, especially Bitcoin. Case closed.



Bitcoin is Freedom.

Your 2 cents was worth quite a bit more before Gox played by the rules you describe - much to the detriment of a lot of people, techy and non-techy.

Things like circle bring wallst, i do embrace them

First, I disagree that banks are needed for a modern economy; in fact, banks simply cause INFLATION by printing money (central banks, that is).  There ARE other economic systems.  Barter is not very practical, but a demurrage currency for everyday use would have prevented the hoarding and financial inequality which has arisen over the past hundred years.   Anyways, the statement 'banks are needed for a modern economy' should really be supported with some sort of argument.  Many people will not simply take your assertion for granted. I, for one, will not.

Second, I do agree that Bitcoin 'banks' will be launched.  I am a total free market economist and I am not saying the government should step in and ban circle.  I am simply trying to get the word out that a bitcoin 'bank' goes against the very spirit of Bitcoin, which is decentralized currency.  I'm simply saying; don't use them!

Finally, I totally disagree that a Bitcoin 'bank' is needed for Bitcoin to break the brick-and-mortar barrier and become accepted at a wide range of merchants. Are 0-conf transactions absolutely essential for small-scale purchases? Do you really think someone would go to the trouble of trying to double-spend 0.01 bitcoins he paid for a hamburger?  I seriously doubt that would EVER become a problem. If it did, then obviously merchants could switch to an altcoin with faster transaction times like Litecoin. 

I do not see ANY reason that Bitcoiners OR merchants need a service like Circle. 

I agree that this point needs more clarity, but the information from the articles at Coindesk and Forbes indicated fiat-only withdrawals. Notice that the video demonstrated the Circle web-app handling a bitcoin URI. Users could provide a wallet address of their own to the Circle software in a URI, but it doesn't take alot of tweeking to the software to force a Payments Protocol message in place of a URI (and remember that Bitpay and the rest of the processors are imminently rolling out the Payments Protocol). So there may be outright technical barriers (requiring CA signed payment requests), ranging down to barriers defined by the skill level or courage of the user (supplying a self selected address in a URI). All this remains to be seen, there's no public signups allowed yet.

If this is the way to make using bitcoin less painful for newbies with less tolerance for the details, then it might be an admirable attempt at that. I'm not so sure of the approach, confronting the "confusing nature" of the exchange rate issue from the outset is less painful in the long term (the analogy to me is the classical "ripping of the band-aid off instantly").

Maybe Circle have a tactic for presenting the denomination information in a way that is progressively more easy to understand, as they also say they have further products in the pipeline. They are displaying the BTC value after all, but just de-emphasising it. Those that can take a savvier approach will use that information when they are ready to.

Good luck with that argument on this forum.  I'm no fan of banks, especially after recently having my corporate account forcefully closed with no recourse or an admission of the real reason.  However, they are a needed system for a modern economy, and Bitcoin will need bank-like systems if it expects to cope with the transaction speed that people expect these days.

Bitcoin "banks" will happen.  You don't have to use them.  But if you want to be able to go to a restaurant or a store and pay with Bitcoin as quick and easy as a credit card, you're going to need a third party that will insure 0-conf transactions.  The two easiest ways to do that are a payment processor that offers vendors insured 0-conf transaction processing at the cost of a higher merchant fee (and service cancellations for high risk vendors), or a bank/banking network where the user has funds stored online in advance to be used for point of sale purchases.