Topic: Calling All RARE CASASCIUS COINS! Get Your FULL Asking Price! (Read 1340 times)

I really hate thread crapping, but I'll leave you with one more nugget of wisdom. You wouldn't be able to provide this service without being shut down for illegally transmitting money, just like Casascius did (or bitmit).

I wish you luck with your marketplace and hope you can figure out a way to do it.  Friendly advice, never touch the coins or the funds.

Yes; you got it right! everything in your 1st paragraph is exactly as I see things.

If the buyer was unhappy with a coin, then that could cause some issues.

One idea which I have been considering is if I sealed every sold coin is a special casing which would show tampering. After a buyer opens the capsule, a refund would not be possible (the grade could be altered, or worse, the buyer could have hacked the coin only to attempt a return).

Another prudent thing to do on my part might be to take accurate photographs of the coins when I receive them, and have the buyer approve that they are a similar quality then portrayed in listing (perhaps this would be the point at which I release escrow BTC to seller; if the buyer declines the item and original price based on the photos, I simply return the coin to the seller and get the escrow BTC back). In order to make any return after that; they would need to demonstrate that what they received in the sealed but see-through capsules is different then the photos they approved.

In the case of a coin being emptied after a sale...that would be bad (and the 1st case of it happening). I would likely be unable to accept liability for such a thing, but be completely open to a fraud investigation which could follow, and forward seller information as required. I may insert it into a buyers agreement that I cannot be held responsible if such a coin hack happens, which should prevent liability unless of-course there was evidence that I was actually doing such a thing myself (which would be fraud and a criminal offence). I believe such a thing happening at-least in the starting phases would be unlikely, as my subjects of brokered sale would be rare coins valued mainly for their collector value, many times above the btc value; making them undesirable targets for hacking..

Sorry for the question, but what exactly do you mean by 'm-of-n escrow'? I have not encountered the term before and a search gave no results.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, and am happy to take advice you can offer in making the site brokering system more safe and trustworthy for buyer and seller.

Ill be upfront of the fact that as a business I am trying to make myself a profit. While i see privacy of both parties being valuable in their own right, it is also true that I would prefer that buyers don't cut back-room deals with sellers privately, and thus avoid a brokerage fee i would otherwise fairly earn.
Do you have any suggestion for preventing this to some extent?

This statement is a valid one. Perhaps it would make sense to keep sellers identities private initially, but release information after a sale is complete? Perhaps PGP chains of ownership could also be provided to buyers in some cases along with their purchases.
I don't see how this could 'destroy the market' or have more of a negative effect then Ebay sales.

Do any of you see a better way in which I could provide a brokered sale style listing of coins held by others, with the goal of replacing the sell-thread which Chainaw is moderating? I am obviously looking for a method from which I can earn a reliable commission while reducing risk.

The middleman/broker will have to take responsibility.  As far as the buyer is concerned, they are the seller.  To me, that means that as soon as the broker receives and inspects the coin, the seller should be paid and be finished with the sale.  The broker asserts that the coin is legitimate, and if it's not, simply returns it to the seller and refunds the buyer.  I think that's the only way to protect the actual seller.  

That also means that if the buyer isn't happy with the coin - it's not as described, or it gets emptied sometime after the seller gets his payment, the broker will have to pay for a refund or replacement, and that might be an unacceptable liability.

elianite PMed me and asked for pics so he could help me sell the coin. in the end the coin never leaves me without btc being paid up, or locked in a very reputable escrow, so i don't mind working with him.  then again i only have one coin in the market to keep an eye on market demand and activity

I'l gladly explain.

Suppose a brokered sale coin is listed for $5000, and sells. Like in any normal online transaction, the buyer will send me the money (either via bank transfer or btc). Once the sale is confirmed, I take, say, $4500 the money I received and place it in escrow (not held by me; but by a 3rd party; such as you for example). Once that money (likely in BTC) is held by a third party escrow, the actual seller mails the coins to me. the escrow will then release the $4500 as soon as I confirm receipt.

In essence; I would simply be buying the coin from them for an agreed upon price, in the event that I can find someone else to buy it from me at a higher price. I belive that with time, my trustworthiness will grow and sellers of the coins will be more happy to sell 'directly to me' then deal with bitcoin-illiterate buyers who may want to use $.

So yes; to the seller; the transaction would be as risk free as any sale utilizing full escrow on these forums Does this answer your question?

No; I am not part of it. neither are sellers on Ebay, but that's not stopping buyers. Perhaps after doing many sales I can be admitted. With what I explained above about escrow and 'risk free' selling, I don't think anyone who is making a listing is taking on much risk, and there is therefore little need for me to be 'officially trusted' by the community. Ofcourse; I believe I will gain trust after successful operation.
As for the buyer; a different level of trust is needed. They must trust me/my company enough to send the money in advance, likely without escrow. This is, of course completely common place in the business world, and if me/my business were to defraud anyone, they would have every right to legal recourse. Nevertheless; as ive said; the purpose of this post is to gather listed items from private sellers (and at-least attempt to prove my legitimacy to forum members). Also; I will repeat that the site is aimed at those not involved with bitcoin, but wanting to invest in coins...It is meant to be a traditional business selling and brokering rare collectibles to the world.


As I said; Sellers "hold onto [their] coin" UNTIL the coin sells on the site AND i place the money with a trusted escrow which is released as soon as i get the coin from them.


I am aware of the concept of using a verifiable chain of custody to prove the origin and former owners of a coin; somewhat similar systems are used with things such as LBMA Good Delivery gold bars and such. As far as original plans go; I meant to not to utilize the system. Casascius coins sell continually on Ebay with no such system, and one could well 'flip' the coins over Ebay; never using PGP. Fact is; the large amount of the potential pool of buyers are completely unaware of the system and may have little interest in using it. Also suppose that a seller of a valuable coin wants to sell it without public knowledge; I believe their anonymity is important. Of-course, it would need to be revealed to authorities if a fraud investigation were to take place n the case of faked/hacked coins.

Correct; it is an idea with a visual demonstration, but perhaps you could be more generous then calling it a napkin scribble. I'm not asking anything from anyone except interest in listing their coins. As for as not sending me 'shit'; I would beg to differ: suppose I agreed to directly buy one of the coins you are selling (and sent the full amount of BTC to OgNasty for escrow), you would still refuse to deal with me?


I assume you realize that neither A nor B are common place practices in the normal, every-day business world. Do you think that a wealthy banker who wants to buy a $50,000 collectible coin as a curiosity is going to do so by sending bitcoin (which he is quite unfamiliar with) to an essentially unknown, individual person (possibly in another country) who is apparently 'trusted' by a 'community' he knows nothing about, so that this trusted person can hold the funds in trust until he receives his shipment? I think they would MUCH RATHER buy from a real, registered, legal business; against which they can take legal action if they clearly defraud him.
Seriously...try to explain the 'escrow system' we use here to somebody on wall street; they would think it is a joke.


While I have not revealed private information, you can be sure that in the event of an official launch, business registration numbers, business names, owners, and all would become public knowledge as the law requires.


I believe I have answered all your questions in good faith. I appreciate helpful criticism and my business plan is still evolving, but I feel you are being overly pessimistic and suspicious. At this point, nobody has any evidence to believe I am trying to defraud anyone. I look forward to your response.

I received a PM from elianite a few days ago regarding this, but didn't bother to respond until I saw this thread here.


I feel like I don't even need to point out the utter foolishness of this plan beyond the statements I've highlighted in red, but I'll give it a shot.

Are you in the Web of Trust? It doesn't appear so: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=elianite

Can you please explain how there is no risk involved in my mailing valuable coins to a complete stranger who isn't in the OTC web of trust, has zero trust on his forum account, doesn't even bother letting us know his real name?

Can you please explain how I "hold onto my coin" when in the previous sentence, you clearly stated that I'd have to mail my coin to you?

Can you please explain how extending the PGP chain of custody would work, or why sellers would wish to add an extra middleman to the chain of custody? Are you even aware of PGP custody chains and how they work?

OgNasty has it right -- your idea (and let's be fair, all you have here is a napkin scribble and a domain name) is completely and irreparably flawed. I wouldn't send you shit, and I question the wisdom of anyone who would.

I fail to see how this is even a marginal improvement over (a) using a trusted escrow or (b) paying half up-front and half on delivery.

Flawed service run by an anonymous nobody that's so structured towards supporting scams that I have a hard time believing it wasn't done on purpose.

NO THANKS.

Sending your physical coin to the same place your funds for it are being sent is just not smart and I would hardly call it escrow without a trusted 3rd party.

I couldn't imagine mailing someone a 1,000 BTC coin at the same time someone else pays them 1,500 BTC for it and then expecting to see either the funds or coin again.

I like what you're trying to do and there is a need for it, but your implementation is flawed and a centralized marketplace with this current business plan would only damage the reputation of Casascius coins themselves, devaluing the market for everyone.  I personally have only bought 1 Casascius coin secondhand ever, and I only purchased it because the person selling it was a moderator here.  If these coins start trading hands willy nilly to anybody with anonymous middlemen, in tact coins will begin being emptied and the guilty party won't be reasonably identified.  It will destroy the secondhand marketplace for Casascius coins, as the seller will no longer have any liability and will blame the middleman, regardless of if the seller is being dishonest and pinning the theft on you, you were dishonest and stole the coins, or the buyer was dishonest and stole the coins and then complained it was the middleman or seller.

This idea will end in tears, as the buyer of a compromised Casascius coin will have no recourse but to call you and the seller scammers without being able to identify the guilty party beyond a reasonable doubt.

+201.7

I've spoken with elianiate via PM off and on over the last few weeks. Yes we should all be cautious, but I'm really encouraged to see a centralized hub for these collectible sales.  The 'collectible marketplace' thread was not going to scale well.

With a solid m-of-n escrow service, I'd be very excited to try selling a few of my offerings here.

You would need a lot of trust... and I think the idea of sending coins to someone is bad.  Why not have an escrow setup like bitmit and do it that way.  Even with just the escrow you need someone REALLY trusted for this.

I understand the issue of handling the coins. I figured it would provide the most 'security' in brokered deals if I acted as a middle party. Ofcourse; if I had the liquidity to simply buy all the rare coins and then put them on sale myself I'd do that, but i figured (sell coin & get money > put money in escrow for coin owner > receive coin > ship coin to new owner) system was a viable alternative. If i instead had the original owner shipping the coin to the buyer (my other alternative), I could not guarantee the quality of the packaging, or even the fact that they didn't mail an empty box. Furthermore; the buyer and seller confidentiality would be gone, and the transaction as a whole would be less reputable to an outsider (imagine explaining this to a 50 year old traditional coin collector who has decided they want a speculative bet on this internet money thing...I think they would much much rather buy from a 'real company')

Any thoughts? I apologize if I sound defensive; I greatly value your input.

I think the idea of a market for these coins is a good one.  I just don't understand why you would want to handle the physical goods.  Could you imagine if eBay ran their business that way?

I recognize the danger of the 'coin scam' threat, but to my knowledge there has never been a reported case of it actually happening. Furthermore, coins are sold weekly on Ebay with no PGP statement (All coins can obviously be checked and confirmed funded prior to sale, but nothing stopping someone from taking the BTC at a later date from an address they swiped)
As far as the trust ratings go; I must say that I feel they are somewhat overrated. I've been following Bitcoin for nearly a year now, but have had no reason to become a forum member until very recently. If I dare say; I believe my 'reputation' on this forum will have little to do with sales on the site. Obviously; my prices for the more common coins are well above those here. I do not expect any forum member to be  buying coins from the site which are readily available on the forum.

That said, all I am looking for at this point is forum members who are open to the possibility of listing their rare coins; risk-free on their part. I see little reason for anyone to object to this in particular. Listings on the site are specifically trying to sell to the outside.

Besides the OP not having the appropriate trust rating to offer a service such as this, I would question the business model regardless of who was offering it.  What would stop someone from offering a service like this to use the coin hack to get the private keys from everyone's coins?  There is a reason why it has become popular to get a PGP signed statement saying that coin seller is the original owner.  I think this is a bad idea all the way around.  Any service that introduces more risk under the guise of being more secure smells fishy to me.

As stated, the prices in these images are not to be taken for current prices. My intent is to price items slightly above the current Ebay going rate, with the intended appeal being to those who want to buy from a business instead of an individual on Ebay (and is not on the forums). HOWEVER; the purpose of the above post is concerning only one part of the business, and that is in gathering hard-to-find items for Brokered Sale prior to launch. These are items which are rarely if ever even sold on Ebay. Investors who may be eyeing the coins as an investment are often not involved enough to be on the forums or even own actual Bitcoin; but simply want to buy an expensive coin as a speculative investment with dollars.

As for partners; I have Sr. Member Klondike_Bar on-board (shout-out to the Klondike Mining Collective he is arranging). I have also been in discussion with some other members who are interested in the idea.

+++1

Senior member/Donator scammed me... don't judge based on account age or status here...

I agree to certain extent. Being a new member you need to establish trust. To overcome this you can add few partners(sr members).
Going by the prices you had in the attached images...it looks like a tough nut to crack.... the sale prices of the items are much higher than ebay or our own goods section.to be competitive you prices should be less and not more.. ..those are my two microbits.

That's an unfair statement. I believe I have made it clear that nobody will be asked to 'send me their coin' unless their money is already held in escrow after a successful sale. This is 0 risk to anyone listing coins.

No one will use your service because you have no trust or history. No one will trust to send you their coin, so sorry but your idea already is a failure.