Topic: Calling Gavin Andresen and others, possibility of restoring MtGox's coins. (Read 7888 times)

Amen. Thanks for your wise input. There's a saying: "The smart learn from his own mistakes, the genius learns from others mistakes". I too have had big monetary losses in the past. It was painful, but I did learn from it.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article44588.html

No....just asking if the authority is not thiefing themselves and as they do obviously- BTC is a death struck PONZI itself....no fresh blood to be expected for a long time to come....

Why baby ? Why all will go for the early adopters. When one newbie loose his/her BTC from a web wallet, u guys do big talk about naive the newbie is. Now u have been Goxed and u want authority intervention ?

It was only headed by bitcoins early adopters and sat on the board of the TBF which san be considered to consist of the same incompetent corrupted staff

which hopefully will caught red-handed as most of the loot was not gotten back from Madoff but from the PONZ-Pass through operators !

Those gains of the pirate@40 scam are in the hands of the scamming MODS of this forum as well....BTC is fucked in the hand of scammers.

While I don't think it was directed at me, I'd like to address the compassion issue.

While I think it is indeed necessary and right to discuss and if possible mitigate the human cost here, I also think that any "technical" solution that rolls back the blockchain or otherwise messes with the internal working of Bitcoin is NOT compassionate, even though it appears to be. Because if we do that (and the nature of bitcoin makes it so it is ALL of us if it is to be done), then instead of 6 percent loss, it's one hundred percent. I understand that the op was in fact not suggesting this, but rather trying to find a way to recover the keys. But the idea nevertheless got floated, and in more than one place.

I would suggest that all those who lost money in whatever flavor to MTGOX contact the court officers who are investigating the alleged bankruptcy and DETAIL your losses, with such details as they need to prove it. I doubt that the software and user accounts have been destroyed, and the missing coins do exist in the blockchain. I'm not a cryptographic expert. It's something I have some interest in, but my math skills are sub par. I'm good at merchant's math, but not the advanced stuff. Nevertheless, with the experts and the law all on this, it is likely that a fair amount will be recovered and disbursed to the account holders. I very much doubt that Mr. Karpeles personal fortune will be greatly impacted by this, unless he was foolish enough to keep his personal funds on the exchange and/or is found to have perpetrated or been involved. But his company is going to be either sold at auction piecemeal, or be bought out (price of which would likely include settlement of accounts to the extent possible).

While not physical, Bitcoin shares far more in common with hard monies such as gold and silver than it does with modern fiat currencies. It has to be treated as such. You, me, every bitcoin user needs to understand this. You HAVE to have sole access to your private keys at all times, and if you do have coins on an exchange, it should be a fraction of what you have, or be there no longer than it takes to effect the exchange. I think the people who got burned will learn this. I know it kind of came off like I was saying "they got what they deserved" earlier, but that was not my intent. I have personally lost a small fortune due to similar mistakes in my youth. If you learn from it, it's a painful memory. If you do it a second time, then yes, it is your fault.

I also think there is an opportunity here, and I would encourage former holders of Goxcoins to look into this, of offering insurance to the bitcoin market. One can mitigate quite a bit of risk in that manner, by risking a bit more on insurance It's a rather old economic model, and one that works. An honest insurance company (they do exist, or at least have) makes a lot of money for it's operators, and mitigate risk in a manner that encourages commerce and discourages stupidity while protecting it's clients against exactly the kind of crap that just went down with Gox.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think the most compassionate thing we as a community can do is encourage those who lost out to be more careful in the future, and to help build the value of the brand. In adversity lies opportunity. It is my belief that so long as we don't allow our feelings to overcome our logic, that bitcoin and BY EXTENSION it's holders will not only survive this, it will become stronger. Mtgox is not bitcoin, much as some of the media would like it to be. It was a corrupt and incompetent company that traded in bitcoin.

I empathize.  Up in NY not finding work in my field I worked as a cashier in a typically busy LI supermarket.  Not like down south here where cashiers casually scan items at a snails pace, long lines, loaded carts, we'd have to move products across the scanner very, very quickly and with accuracy.  Counting out at night, EXACT receipts were required.  When a nickel was short there was hell to pay.  You'd be in a small closet with a window to the managers cubical and after a long day on one's feet, to be getting a blast bile and instructions to recount the draw repeatedly ain't fun.  So, there's almost a half billion dollars worth of bitcoins missing.  And he's 'sorry about that'.

He should offer a reward for information leading to trial and conviction as well as btc return.  He's not going to do that if he's the guilty party.

If the big fish ( TBF ) or the big fail not only wanted to cash out as soon as possible they would not have let this happen and certainly would not just stand by and

tell all suckers atill in the game : Hey get over this....we lost some too...just buy more and put them in cold storage how Mark was cleverly doing

and then be part of our platinum membership !

In the back there seems to be a frenchman, I kindly ask you to replace him with someone else, preferably somebody from Finland.

Don't worry, a Task Force consisting of, erm, diplomatic skilled non-judging experts, is right now directed to Japan to extract the truth (or whatever) from Mark K.

Never heard about 'the dark triad' before, but I read that wiki link and learned something new - and I always enjoy learning something new. So thank you for that. I can agree with your conclusion here as well. Thank you for your post.





I'm not up to date on the development of hardware wallets, but I agree that will be great when it goes mainstream and is easy to use. Also, I did not want this thread to turn into a thread where we fights out who's right and who aren't. I'm interested in sharing and learning, not to prove something or to claim that I'm always right. The fact that I pointed out compassion as one of the things I think is important does not mean I accuse the rest of you for not having compassion.

From experience in technical fields  I recognize that quite a few people are very detail oriented, and have a problem seeing the entire picture. And males in general are less compassionate than women, which is hardwired into the genes.

I realize most of you are great persons that have thoughts for more than the mere technical side of things, and as one matures, the realization that one's a part of a whole, and everything is interconnected becomes more apparent.

While some teenagers mine in their basement, and do some satoshi dice and don't really care about the impact on society that bitcoin have, I see a lot of the older participants (30+) in the system do have this in mind, and that's why I'm still involved, even if some of the magic was removed when Gavin called the people in this forum a cesspit. I figured this was greater than Gavin, and as such I should not care too much of his comment, although I really had him in high regard before he said that.

I'm merely trying to direct attention to what I believe is the best. This might not be in line with what everyone else think is the best, but in general I do care about other people and their well being, and I believe in being honest, and honor promises and acting ethically. Not saying that I'm a saint or perfect, as nobody ever will be, but I think having a broader view than mere self interest is beneficial, and while it cannot be expected by young people, I think it should most definitely be expected by older people. And a lot of people are doing great things for bitcoin and deserve praise and a clap on the shoulder, but those who are not 'acting in the best interest' for bitcoin should not be allowed to hold important positions, or given too much credit.

While it always can be discussed what's in the best interest for bitcoin  and who's to decide what is, I think that adults are able to look at my message and realize what my point is.

This thread is one of the more constructive threads I've experienced for a while on this forum, and I thank you all for that. I'm frankly tired of all the trolls and silly posts this forum is often riddled with.

Whereas there are indeed some people that qualifies to be a part of the 'cesspit' Gavin talks about, there are also a lot of very non-cesspit people around here. And besides, Gavin is just nothing more than a normal man, and I can imagine it can be really annoying when you really contribute a lot to bitcoin, and then you have all these people contributing virtually nothing and just complaining - but they're still a part of the community and buys bitcoins, purchase goods with bitcoins, trade bitcoins and make it all possible. So the elitist group in the community would be quite lonely if it wasn't for the 'cesspit'. Anyway - that's what was on my mind. Thank you again.

I think everyone has sympathy for these people, don't confuse discussing something logically with you as having no compassion for them.  Certainly there are plenty of people who just didn't know not to keep bitcoin on an exchange even though it has been stated by many hundreds of times - in fact I know a technically adept guy who had a few bitcoins at Gox because he just didn't get around to moving them.  Stating the fact that if you don't have the private key, you don't own bitcoin, is trying to help to educate people to the benefits of bitcoin. 

It is always best to educate yourself prior to investing, and a lot of people did not investigate Gox enough.  I've been telling people not to use Gox for more than 18 months because they just seemed inept.

Regarding this:

thanks for your post.
that's one of the most advanced posts I've read about cryptocurrencies so far (and one of the longest as well). being guided by the opposite of the dark triad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad) will ensure the future of bitcoin. that said, the value of bitcoin positively correlates to cohesion of its participants. according to that assumption, the highest self-interest would be to help sort things out at mtgox although not affected at first sight (like myself).

I have yet to see evidence of this either.

If people weren't using an exchange for long-term bitcoin storage, fractional would not be possible.

according to this:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z7krg/japanese_newspaper_asahi_shimbun_has_50_billion/cfr8f61

An external consultant is aiding in mapping the theft together with police. I would imagine that it's some one we've heard about before?

Thank you everyone for all the input, I think there's a lot of good input here.

I will make a few bulletpoints to clarify my position:

- I don't think MtGox is 'too big to fail'.
- I agree personal responsibility is #1, and I see it's very common in society today for many not to realize this.
- I'm not asking for anyone to 'bail' MtGox out.
- I'm not asking for a blockchain fork or otherwise a technical solution involving the blockchain/bitcoin.

And I'm pretty sure everyone that has been burnt by holding any significant amount of money at MtGox by now pretty well understand that what they did was foolish..

While all your input makes logical sense, how do you expect all people to become sharp and sophisticated? Do we want Bitcoin to become mainstream, or do we want it to be some kind of niche thing?

Most inventions that has become mainstream has been made so that you do not need to know the underlying technology, and you don't need to be sophisticated to use it. Although most people in 'Development & Technical Discussion' at bitcointalk.org probably are rather smart and intelligent, that's not true for the majority of the population. And it never will be.

Sure, education is good, but at what cost? Although I'm leaning to the camp of personal responsibility, and I'm not emotionally involved in MtGox because my losses were negligible (I saw the MtGox demise coming like a boat drifting towards a river fall for a long time - and that's without trying to sound like a smart ass), I don't think those naive enough to invest with MtGox deserves their huge losses.

I am not sure about all the rest of you, technical minded males are not often the ones with the most amount of compassion, but I genuinely feel sorry for those that have their lifes affected to a serious degree. There might be suicides, relations that are ruined, opportunities that will be lost. Cynically if anyone kills themselves over this, or if their relationship shatters to pieces, ultimately they do have themselves to blame. And a cynic could point to someone killing him self for whatever reason that this is only nature cleaning up the gene pool, that person failed and will not bring forward his genes.

It's easy not to care about someone you don't know. They're distant, their lifes doesn't affect you. What if it was your friend, what if it was your spouse, your daughter or your son? Maybe you would've been so involved in their lives already that you advise them in all matters, and help them not make mistakes, and what if there was a major mistake on their part - and you would suffer yourself. Then shit just got real.

I'm not saying that we should have a society where we need to lead everybody by the hand at that all errors should be wiped out without pain, what I'm saying is that we should have a society where those having the knowledge, resources and wisdom to help those less fortunate.

For instance, once there was a small girl coming knocking on the window of our living room. My wife opened the door and wondered what it was all about. This girl was terrified and frozen up. It was icy cold outside. She had originally been on a trip with a horse, the horse had bolted away, and she was confused to as where she was, she had agreed to meet her father at a designated meeting point, but now she was emotionally upset, didn't think clearly, was hungry and tired and desperate.

The cynic could've closed the door and said: Well, people who are not smart enough to take responsibility for their own actions deserve to face the consequences.

Her father did an error for letting her be alone out in the cold weather like that, she might've done an error making the horse get away and so on. There were a whole line of fuckups, but this girl was young and inexperienced, and the father probably didn't think this would happen.. Call them stupid, deserving or whatever..

But we took our car, and drove the girl to the designated meeting point. The father was a total wreck, and there was also a police car there, and they thanked us, and we went home. We did the right thing. We acted in a morally and ethically right way, although we did not have a legal obligation to help that girl. We were simply humans. Humans mostly operates in groups and helps each other.

Now, turning this to Bitcoin. While people need to be aware of their personal responsibilities, a lot of people trust in authority. In the bitcoin world, people who have prominent positions, or make themselves into prominent persons have a larger responsibility than others. If you vouch for a bitcoin business, people will trust you and put their money there.

When the Bitcoin Foundation has MtGox as a gold member, and does not kick them out before far too late, that's also one way to give them credibility and instill trust in normal people, or the sheep, as many would call them.

One could say that every person investing with MtGox is 100% responsible for what they do, and they are. And the fuckup of MtGox's part, be it incompetence, fraud or both is 100% MtGox's responsibility.

In the same breath I think it's the foundations responsibility, and likewise the responsibility of all other known persons in the bitcoin community to not vouch for or to prop up MtGox when they simply don't can't know that they're solvent and running well. At best, when the Bitcoin Foundation does not set up a big warning and kick them out for being Gold Members when problems keep surfacing, and they (Gox) show no sign to improve their act even after repeated requests, negligence is the only word that I can think to come by.

This is not a blame game. It's not The foundations fault that people invested with MtGox, it's not the fault of prominent bitcoin people that customers invested with MtGox, but it is surely the fault of these people embracing MtGox when they KNEW that everything was not well.

A Bitcoin Foundation seeking to protect and promote bitcoin should be on the ball in events like this, ask very hard questions, and be persistent, and demand answers and proof. If this does not happen, then any membership association with the foundation should be removed, and there should be put up a warning about that company.

But perhaps I'm just being naive, and that the foundation is merely a place for business interests to discuss and further their own agenda. But - and this is the truth - although the Foundation is not an entity that has the legal mean of regulating the bitcoin industry, the demise of MtGox also affexts Bitcoin negatively as a whole. A lot of people have now lost their faith in bitcoin, and they will surely tell their friends and complain to everybody that will listen. If this is irresponsible and stupid, that's kind of irrelevant, as it will happen anyway.

So it's important to raise your eyes, and see around you. Although you're isolated speaking a smart, intelligent and sophisticated investor - most people are not and never will be. And thus I stand by "it is the responsibility of those able to help those less fortunate".

I'm sure you all get my point here. While we must cherish and embrace personal responsibility, and instill this in our children and in everyone around us, we should also help people that have ended up in a bad situation. Although a lot of those people are stupid and naive, I'm sure none of them wished to end up in that situation, and I'm sure that a lot of them learn from it and will never end up there again.

So what I thought those at the top of the foodchain in the bitcoin community could do was to establish a task force, and not just offering, but insisting on helping MtGox, and leveraging everything that they could to have MtGox accept this help. I'm not saying they should bail MtGox out. I think the best might as well be to help them clean up the mess as well as possible, and then dissolve MtGox after customers have gotten back as much funds as possible.

Currently, what the sharks and wolfes in this community is doing is to stand next to a train wreck and not helping the crying and injuried people. They're not legally obliged to help, but if they wanted to, they could at least try to the best of their abilities, as it would be in their own interest. And also by not accting, the Bitcoin Foundation is essentially making themselves irrelevant.

As a last word: Words are cheap and easy, and if I really wanted change, I should start some organization myself that did the things that I'm complaining about in this post, but the truth is that any such organization would take a lot of time to get on its feet, and in the case of MtGox - action needs to happen right now.

My thoughts go out to all those sheep, naive and dumb as they are, but still they lost a lot, and does not deserve that loss.

FTFY. And yes, if one do not have half a brain to understand the difference between gox and bitcoin, they should not invest in it.

at this point only the second coming of satoshi could bail-out gox.  
and yes, karpeles is a fat liar and deserves to die.

If lucky, someone else will take over gox, give everyone a hair-cut and re-start the exchange.

Fractional is tempting. But in that sense Gox was a good thing to happen. Maybe in a few month or a year, exchanges will proof to their customers, that they have 100% reserve. But I think this is only feasible on the basis of btc but not fiat. This would cause a premium on the btc price. hm.

All exchanges are doing fractional....

just force every exchange to do all deals in the blockchain...thats not going to happen---cause the big fish want to cash out of the ponzi and the bagholders are waning !

Cheers