Topic: Can bitcoin exist without fiat - page 3. (Read 456 times)

I think it would be easier if you think Bitcoin is a currency, a means of exchange just like fiat or gold as mentioned above. As long as people agree that you can exchange things with BTC, then that's enough. Fiat is just a more common currency, just like USD and EUR is a different one but function as more or less the same thing. Do you need USD to use EUR? Etc.

It can.

Remember the ancient days, there's no fiat during that time. Things were bought through gold, silver, bronze, or any precious metal or things that were precious to people.

It is about being valued by the people so it can be bitcoin/gold, bitcoin/oil, etc. if there's no fiat.

So in this hypothetical scenario, Bitcoin could exist without fiat?

I believe that's the crux of the question. Bitcoin is self-sufficient, and we can imagine a world in which the entire economy is based solely on cryptocurrencies. Whether this is actually feasible in the world we live in now is another issue.

So, in such a nation it does work without 'thinking in $ and exchanging for $ all the time' right?
Because these kinds of nations start to actually be a reality, with El Salvador being the first in the next days, for example.

Yeah that's why I ask how a government issued 'cryptocurrency' should in any way be better than the € and $ that they give us now. Government issued will mean they'll print / generate coins as they need (inflate it) so having a government crypto will have 0 benefit for anyone wanting to prevent losses through inflation.

Another point though about valuing Bitcoin in e.g. USD (or something else of relatively stable price like a full shopping cart - btw damn did the price of 1 shopping cart increase over the last 10 years?): right now, it is still needed as kind of an indicator, since we're still so early and adoption is still so low that the price is still long-term massively increasing. By comparing against something like '1 USD' we can roughly grasp how the value is developing. Though imho it's wrong that inflation is usually not factored in in those charts. They act as if 1 USD 10 years ago has still the same value today, which it does not.

So, yeah, I still don't see a real, technological argument how 'Bitcoin needs Fiat to work'. I can give you an item, you give me some Satoshis, no USD were used or referenced. Value will be determined by how many Satoshi you are ready to give me for that item, which will depend on how many hours you worked for that amount of Satoshis - the same way the € or $ 'market' works.

Bolding the word “staple”, due to its importance. In the society you're living, you pay everything with a fiat currency such as taxes, bills etc. The fact that you can buy a house with Bitcoin or stocks with gold is irrelevant. You will never think of an arbitrary number of sats to sell the house; you'll simply google the exchange rate and conclude how many bitcoins is your house valuated.

So, we both agree that at the moment it can't operate without fiat.

If you're living in a nation that forces you to use EUR, you have no reason to think of the exchange rate of EUR/USD. If you were living in a nation that forced Bitcoin usage, you'd have also no reason to think its exchange rate in fiat.

Why didn't they save up in a provable safe haven such as gold? It's known that fiat currencies are inflationary, the government doesn't keep it for secret. Whenever you feel your wealth is devaluated, grab the deflationary metal and sleep easy.

How is a cryptocurrency backed by government any different from fiat? It then is fiat as well. Because if it's not, so it's issued by independent miners etc., like BTC, then it's not government controlled anymore. The two kind of contradict themselves.

Even though it's often measured in fiat currencies, it doesn't mean it needs them to work. It is entirely possible (technically) for an economy like a country or even multiple countries / whole world to use BTC as currency. Like, EUR is also measured in USD, still it would work without USD. I never calculate how many USD a banana costs when I see an € price and then decide whether to buy it.

Same could technically apply with BTC. It is possible, that people get paid in BTC and go shopping in BTC, and just "know" what a good BTC (or satoshi) price for a banana is, just like I know what a good price is in €.

Regarding government having to control money, that's a whole different topic, but I personally think it's robbery to just print money when you need it, and people who saved up money in the bank for years, and worked hard for it, have it simply devalued by a huge amount through your printing activity.

We do this probably because fiat currencies are already the staple means of exchange and every other thing is valued against it. Cars, gold, houses, stocks are all priced against fiat. This does not mean any of these assets cannot be valued against each other, stocks can be sold for gold and houses for Bitcoin, they are not just popular enough or scalable enough to be used daily for all transactions as yet. In the future Bitcoin could be valued against something else, or other assets valued against it.

Not yet.

Let me tell you then. For now, there is no way that Bitcoin can be used without fiat. I mean that you can't fulfill your essential needs without fiat money. When you want to buy something, not all the places accept Bitcoin as a payment method. Maybe there are still ones that accept but it isn't enough in the end. You can't pay your bills etc. unless the goverment of the country you live in decides to create a system like this.

However, this can change in the future. Because digital currencies will replace fiat money in the future. We will use cryptocurrencies and digital currencies that are developed and backed by governments. Then, Bitcoin will be able to exist without fiat as there will be no need to convert I think.

This opens up a big discussion. If it's separate from fiat, then why do we measure bitcoins in dollars, euros, yen and not the opposite? We could do both, but we would never measure a dollar in sats. How is it supposed to work without fiat, since it's historically shown that the government has to control the money of the society in order for it to operate properly?

To answer the OP's title, I personally think that it can't work without fiat existence, because I don't believe in anarchism nor do I think that governments would regulate a censorship resistant type of money.

Of course it can exist without fiat but BTC does have to have a value equivalent to something that is universally recognized and accepted by its users as having value to them. Does not matter if that something is fiat, x weight in gold or x number of goats. That said, for now, the exchange medium is fiat and will remain fiat for the foreseeable future.

First of all, you have to know the characteristics of fiat money. Fiat money is used for payment and it has value cause govt. fixed its value by a legal tender, if you store fiat that's means you reserved something that has value, whatever doesn't matter. Fiat is issued by the governments that's why it has widespread Recognition and widespread consumer trust.

Now tell me does bitcoin has such bold marked characteristics? if yes then it is fine bitcoin can exist without fiat.

Sometimes Bitcoin is superior to fiat money in various ways, Bitcoin is not governed by any third-party authorities. You know commodity money has its own value but for fiat money, it is different. without regulation of government, fiat has no value. So, it is not a big deal for bitcoin to replace fiat.

Long story short :
Yes it can exist without fiat but not right now.
~
It's a seperate entity and you might live in a country where bitcoins are used very often and you are able to pay with it in every corner but in most countries, it's not the option, bitcoins is used but the only way you can use it is by exchanging or trading online or offline.

Therefore at some places it certainly can but most of the times you would find it hard to live just on bitcoins but have you heard of the family travelling the world just by using bitcoins???

Google it!
( They might believe otherwise, quite an interesting read!)

Bitcoin is completely separate from Fiat. It works without Fiat and doesn't need it.
So your question is answered with a big: Yup! Bitcoin can exist without any Fiat currencies around it.

The big difference is that Fiat money is just created / issued out of thin air by printing pieces of paper and saying they have a value, while Bitcoin needs work (PoW) to be performed to be created.

To be honest, the Wikipedia article is quite clear on what is fiat money: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money.

It means, e.g. gold coins would have intrinsic value and would not be fiat, but paper bills and low-value metal coins are fiat money.

Since i joined bitcointalk forum i find it difficult to make a post relating to bitcoin, bitcoin is like physical money (fiat), and i want to know the difference between fiat and bitcoin, and without fiat existence can bitcoin have a name?, after thinking all this  with seriousness i concluded that bitcoin and fiat works like brothers and sisters and no one can leave each other, so i want to know if any other digital currency can function without fiat?.