I think we're better off trying to get bitcoin into an MMO that is currently under development. A good example might be "Pathfinder Online" which is soliciting funds via Kickstarter right now.
http://kck.st/V4zZtU
Topic: Can Bitcoin Foundation succeed lobbying Valve to use Bitcoin as ingame currency? (Read 2982 times)
December 01, 2012, 02:40:15 AM
December 01, 2012, 02:04:15 AM
Game economies only suffer from catastrophic hyperinflation when bots and "chinese gold farmers" enter the fray and begin to exploit moneymaking schemes within the game.. solution?
ban chinese IP's..?
ban chinese IP's..?
Not necessarily, since chinese gold farmer would simply up the block difficulty, like the big miners around here. It's not because there's more big miners that there is more coins available.
Let's say you're playing Super Mario MMO, and each time a player jump, it generates a "hash". Each time a "block" is solved, it creates 50 gold Koopas worth each 1 Mariocoin. To kill the gold Koopa, well, you need to jump on it, creating the incentive of jumping around. If there is too much jumping around, the numbers of jump you need to generate new gold Koopas goes up. And using games rules, you cannot just jump around, you still need to find the Koopas to get your coins.
MMO have economic problems because there's no cap. You can always create more virtual shit. But you can code a hard cap on a crypto-currency and nobody can goes around it.
Quote
Before I even came up to your post, Brunic (are we related?), I envisioned such a scenario, sans the specific MMOCoins aspect.
No, I don't think we are related, but I like your first name
December 01, 2012, 12:21:27 AM
Game economies only suffer from catastrophic hyperinflation when bots and "chinese gold farmers" enter the fray and begin to exploit moneymaking schemes within the game.. solution?
ban chinese IP's..?
ban chinese IP's..?
December 01, 2012, 12:06:04 AM
In a game it is not necessary to carry coin, you can carry lot's of stuff virtually, and the money supply do not have a impact in game's economy like in real life
Take SKYRIM for example, the money in the game is always limited, every merchant have less than several thousand coins, and typically an item can cost as much as 10000 coins
As a result, people do not store coins, they store items in their closet, lot's of items, maybe totally worth millions of coins, those items become a store of value instead, and they become useless in later part of the game play
So, in a game where BTC is applied, since the items can be generated endlessly, eventually they will worth almost nothing in BTC's value
Take SKYRIM for example, the money in the game is always limited, every merchant have less than several thousand coins, and typically an item can cost as much as 10000 coins
As a result, people do not store coins, they store items in their closet, lot's of items, maybe totally worth millions of coins, those items become a store of value instead, and they become useless in later part of the game play
So, in a game where BTC is applied, since the items can be generated endlessly, eventually they will worth almost nothing in BTC's value
In some games, items can be gifted to other toons. Some players create other toons just for the gifting aspect. My brother is a high level player investing thousands to get his main toons up to snuff. But for the past several months he's invested zero bucks, yet keeps leveling up his main toon, as well on his newly created one. I don't have a clue as to how he does it, but it has something to do with manipulating the URLs. There's only a handful of players in the well-known game he plays that take advantage of this.
For the MMORPG, I think creating an alt-currency backed on BTC could be more interesting.
Instead of "mining", when people play, it generates hashes that are used to solve the blocks. When the block is solved, the MMOCoins could simply appear somewhere in the game. Since those coins can only be used for this game, it creates an autonomous economy. Using BTC directly in the game would make the game economy sensible to external events.
After that, if you want to "check out" of the game, you could simply sell your MMOCoins for BTC and bingo! You played a game and you made money!
Now...why I'm talking on this forum instead of coding that MMO....
Instead of "mining", when people play, it generates hashes that are used to solve the blocks. When the block is solved, the MMOCoins could simply appear somewhere in the game. Since those coins can only be used for this game, it creates an autonomous economy. Using BTC directly in the game would make the game economy sensible to external events.
After that, if you want to "check out" of the game, you could simply sell your MMOCoins for BTC and bingo! You played a game and you made money!
Now...why I'm talking on this forum instead of coding that MMO....
Before I even came up to your post, Brunic (are we related?), I envisioned such a scenario, sans the specific MMOCoins aspect.
~Bruno K~
November 30, 2012, 11:32:50 PM
In a game it is not necessary to carry coin, you can carry lot's of stuff virtually, and the money supply do not have a impact in game's economy like in real life
Take SKYRIM for example, the money in the game is always limited, every merchant have less than several thousand coins, and typically an item can cost as much as 10000 coins
As a result, people do not store coins, they store items in their closet, lot's of items, maybe totally worth millions of coins, those items become a store of value instead, and they become useless in later part of the game play
So, in a game where BTC is applied, since the items can be generated endlessly, eventually they will worth almost nothing in BTC's value
Take SKYRIM for example, the money in the game is always limited, every merchant have less than several thousand coins, and typically an item can cost as much as 10000 coins
As a result, people do not store coins, they store items in their closet, lot's of items, maybe totally worth millions of coins, those items become a store of value instead, and they become useless in later part of the game play
So, in a game where BTC is applied, since the items can be generated endlessly, eventually they will worth almost nothing in BTC's value
November 30, 2012, 09:08:52 PM
Great ideas here, thanks everyone for putting your collective heads together. I would like to see Bitcoin adopted by a large gaming company.
November 30, 2012, 04:48:56 PM
This post peaked my interest in MMORPG economics. For those interested in reading more, check out these articles...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/28/the-economics-of-video-games/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/business/15views.html
I have to imagine that Value economist is keeping his eye on bitcoin since it offers a glimpse at an unregulated currency & economy outside of a computer game.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/28/the-economics-of-video-games/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/business/15views.html
I have to imagine that Value economist is keeping his eye on bitcoin since it offers a glimpse at an unregulated currency & economy outside of a computer game.
November 30, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
For the MMORPG, I think creating an alt-currency backed on BTC could be more interesting.
Instead of "mining", when people play, it generates hashes that are used to solve the blocks. When the block is solved, the MMOCoins could simply appear somewhere in the game. Since those coins can only be used for this game, it creates an autonomous economy. Using BTC directly in the game would make the game economy sensible to external events.
After that, if you want to "check out" of the game, you could simply sell your MMOCoins for BTC and bingo! You played a game and you made money!
Now...why I'm talking on this forum instead of coding that MMO....
Instead of "mining", when people play, it generates hashes that are used to solve the blocks. When the block is solved, the MMOCoins could simply appear somewhere in the game. Since those coins can only be used for this game, it creates an autonomous economy. Using BTC directly in the game would make the game economy sensible to external events.
After that, if you want to "check out" of the game, you could simply sell your MMOCoins for BTC and bingo! You played a game and you made money!
Now...why I'm talking on this forum instead of coding that MMO....
November 30, 2012, 04:13:19 PM
I think the initiative is destin to fail.
1. Every big company is more or less reluctant to use third party solutions, especially when comes to such crucial things.
2. Legal problems. If BTC got legally defined as money, that would require form Valve to get lots of expensive licences, as it wouldnt be just "community money"
So the legal risk is simply too big...
1. Every big company is more or less reluctant to use third party solutions, especially when comes to such crucial things.
2. Legal problems. If BTC got legally defined as money, that would require form Valve to get lots of expensive licences, as it wouldnt be just "community money"
So the legal risk is simply too big...
November 30, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Easy way for an MMORPG to make money using BTC: Sell computer generated missiles to users for BTC. User uses the missile to blow something up. Sell more missiles and more things that just got blown up.
Rinse, repeat.
Rinse, repeat.
November 30, 2012, 03:38:22 PM
Using bitcoin for in-game currency is a great idea but it could only be made viable if game developers actually retained *some* control over movement of money. If players are the only ones in control of their private keys that prevents the game developer from taxing the economy, the other extreme of the game developer controlling the private keys would essentially be a just another roach-motel scheme where rather than using bitcoins the players would be using *promises* to redeem to bitcoins and would have to rely on the game developer to honor those promises. A hybrid system where balances are held in 2-out-2 multisig escrow account could potentially allow the game developers to tax the players without allowing them to run away or inflate the money supply.
They don't need to tax the economy. They can create wealth by selling fancy weapons, allowing the skipping of tedious level up activities and most importantly when a game monster kills you can takes your coin the monster gives it to its creators,
Even if someone decides to flood the game with bitcoins that will just draw people to game to get those bitcoins. Since bitcoin is a larger economy than the game's economy then outside forces will automatically balance it.
November 30, 2012, 10:48:33 AM
This is a great idea, but I think it'll be difficult to get valve on board, because valve is very strict about region locking, one of the method they use is blocking credit cards that are not from the region, using bitcoin would not be good for them.
I think the company you should try to convince is Riot, maker of the game "league of legends". There is no true in game currency for this game, they simply sell skins/champions/runepages for real money. This game is extremely popular, with 50M+ global players. They are very open to different payment methods, as shown by their payment page with tons of options. I think they would be very open to accepting bitcoin. Bitcoin would be a great way for Riot to expand their game to international markets that are traditionally difficult to accept payment from.
Also, there are many browser games that would benefit from bitcoin, for example travian or tribalwars.net. Their accepted payment methods are enormous, I think over 10 different options. One of them could be bitcoin.
I think the company you should try to convince is Riot, maker of the game "league of legends". There is no true in game currency for this game, they simply sell skins/champions/runepages for real money. This game is extremely popular, with 50M+ global players. They are very open to different payment methods, as shown by their payment page with tons of options. I think they would be very open to accepting bitcoin. Bitcoin would be a great way for Riot to expand their game to international markets that are traditionally difficult to accept payment from.
Also, there are many browser games that would benefit from bitcoin, for example travian or tribalwars.net. Their accepted payment methods are enormous, I think over 10 different options. One of them could be bitcoin.
November 30, 2012, 10:33:52 AM
The Bitcoin Foundation is not the Bitcoin business development and marketing agency.
+1, anyone can help with this. I will see if I can reach out to Valve. they may have some legal or accounting concerns that BitPay can address for them.
November 30, 2012, 10:28:36 AM
I should talk with Valve?
I'm not an expert in video game economics, and I haven't yet seen a strong argument for why a game company would give up control of their own in-game currencies for a currency that they do not (and cannot) control.
If you've got a strong argument for why they should, then YOU should talk with Valve*. They're rational and profit-driven, so if it is in their best interest they should be willing to do it.
*Cue a flood of armchair-game-economists posting their half-baked thoughts here...
I'm not an expert in video game economics, and I haven't yet seen a strong argument for why a game company would give up control of their own in-game currencies for a currency that they do not (and cannot) control.
If you've got a strong argument for why they should, then YOU should talk with Valve*. They're rational and profit-driven, so if it is in their best interest they should be willing to do it.
*Cue a flood of armchair-game-economists posting their half-baked thoughts here...
November 30, 2012, 10:25:55 AM
Varoufakis seemed skeptical, so I'm pretty sure Valve is not going to be using bitcoin.
That was then. After the Wordpress announcement, I'd bet on Valve making serious reconsideration.
November 30, 2012, 06:24:43 AM
I think that it would be good that Gavin has a talk with Yanis Varoufakis more than VALVe, it can be useful for both 
November 30, 2012, 05:56:54 AM
Well, if the Bitcoin Foundation can't make this happen then they should just disband.
The Bitcoin Foundation is not the Bitcoin business development and marketing agency.
While that's true, Gavin personally as lead developer could try to contact them and make a case, if they'd listen to anyone I think they'd listen to someone with his expertise. On the other hand anyone can do this, they just may not be the most capable to make the best case on a technological level, that's all I'm saying.
Also, you worded your title as if it was news (something happened, past-tense). Unless you are intentionally trying to deceive people, adding a question mark to the end of the title is the least you could do for a scenario like this.
I agree, even with the "?" at the end it still managed to fool me for a few seconds, so I changed it.
November 30, 2012, 05:47:36 AM
Well, if the Bitcoin Foundation can't make this happen then they should just disband.
The Bitcoin Foundation is not the Bitcoin business development and marketing agency.
Also, you worded your title as if it was news (something happened, past-tense). Unless you are intentionally trying to deceive people, adding a question mark to the end of the title is the least you could do for a scenario like this.
November 30, 2012, 03:25:00 AM
The game could be free but charge a small 1% fee on withdrawing bitcoins from the game.
Instead of withdraw fees, they could sell "in game services and products". Like the NPC that sells you a weapon, he is actually "working" for the company hosting the game.
November 30, 2012, 03:11:01 AM
It's not clear yet which way Valve will go, I agree with the original poster that Bitcoin Foundation should be able to lobby and convince Valve to adopt Bitcoin rather than creating an umpteen'th roach-motel private fiat system like Linden Labs in SL.
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