Can Bitcoin save a nation that owes a lot of money / Debt - page 2.

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Quote from: stompix on March 10, 2024, 03:00:58 PM

Why, are you too stupid do it it yourself?

Stop degrading me! Are you out of your mind when you call anyone stupid? You have so much dysfunction happening in your mind and yourself that you forget whom you are talking to as you are som much filled with pride that you do not understand that you are talking to another human who has sense.

Quote from: stompix on March 10, 2024, 03:00:58 PM

First get at least the name of the country right, but probably that's too hard for you!
Second here is the data
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1341750/inflation-rate-latin-american-countries/

Quote

Nicaragua 10.45%
Honduras 9.09%
Costa Rica 8.26%
Salvador 7.2%
Guatemala 6.89%
Belize 6.27%
Panama 2.86%

So, where is genius of Bukele?

Providing stats does not prove you are wealthy or poor. Some things cannot be explained with stats, it has only been a few years which you know and still ignore that you do not know. A country coming out of an economic situation will take about 10 years. If you are so eager then keep on going with the replies. You of all the people how come you get to be a DT1 for bullying? If you can say that you won't tag me with a negative trust then I will show you what I can do.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on March 17, 2024, 01:51:52 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on March 13, 2024, 08:23:15 AM

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

Imho the logic is a bit different.

First of all you need clear differentiation between the powers in the state. Of course, because of corruption, this will not always work well, but in time it will adjust.

Then training is also necessary: those fighting corruption have to learn to find it and also how to find and lock the illegal money. Of course, you can argue that this costs money. I will say that even in the corrupt countries people can learn, just in many cases the incentive is not great and not so visible plus the politicians try to keep the population uneducated so they can keep earning their votes.

Sooner or later the population will fed up and will stop voting the corrupt people especially if their corruption is exposed often enough.

Now about the "in rich countries" part. Many countries have become rich through 2 "pillars": higher education of people and less money stolen through corruption. So imho a country becomes rich by fighting the corruption, not the other way around. And when the different powers of the state work well, the corrupt people get - sooner or later - caught. That's what you find "less corruption" "in rich countries". They are not better nor more honest. Just more efficient through education.

You are talking about voting, but even using the example of my country, I can say that this does not work. Previously, we had elections of mayors of cities, chairmen of settlements, governors, but now there are only presidential elections. (now Duma deputies appoint people to the positions of regional governors, the governor appoints the mayor of the city and so on down the chain). Elections to the State Duma are based on factions, and the voter cannot influence the list of candidates. After the elections, each faction receives a quota depending on the percentage of votes received.
The number of elected positions is reduced very sharply, so elections are not anti-graft.

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Quote from: zasad@ on March 13, 2024, 08:23:15 AM

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

Imho the logic is a bit different.

First of all you need clear differentiation between the powers in the state. Of course, because of corruption, this will not always work well, but in time it will adjust.

Then training is also necessary: those fighting corruption have to learn to find it and also how to find and lock the illegal money. Of course, you can argue that this costs money. I will say that even in the corrupt countries people can learn, just in many cases the incentive is not great and not so visible plus the politicians try to keep the population uneducated so they can keep earning their votes.

Sooner or later the population will fed up and will stop voting the corrupt people especially if their corruption is exposed often enough.

Now about the "in rich countries" part. Many countries have become rich through 2 "pillars": higher education of people and less money stolen through corruption. So imho a country becomes rich by fighting the corruption, not the other way around. And when the different powers of the state work well, the corrupt people get - sooner or later - caught. That's what you find "less corruption" "in rich countries". They are not better nor more honest. Just more efficient through education.

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Quote from: Big one on March 12, 2024, 03:00:30 PM

Bitcoin is not a magic wand, which can save a country of corruption,never. they can only be saved if they take care of their finance.Using bitcoin to save a debt-ridden nation argue that it could provide several potential benefits. Firstly, bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, meaning it is not controlled by any entity or government.This decentralized could offer greater autonomy and control over monetary policy, reducing dependence on traditional financial institution and potentially mitigating the risk of defaulting on debt obligations .

I think that corruption can only be eliminated in an isolated environment. Bitcoin cannot fight corruption, and the state also needs corruption to control officials. Otherwise, officials will be uncontrollable people.
In rich countries there is less corruption at a low level where ordinary citizens interact, but in poor countries you will see corruption all the time.

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Bitcoin is not a magic wand, which can save a country of corruption,never. they can only be saved if they take care of their finance.Using bitcoin to save a debt-ridden nation argue that it could provide several potential benefits. Firstly, bitcoin operates on a decentralized network, meaning it is not controlled by any entity or government.This decentralized could offer greater autonomy and control over monetary policy, reducing dependence on traditional financial institution and potentially mitigating the risk of defaulting on debt obligations .

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Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 10, 2024, 08:20:46 AM

Please create another sheet where in you show GDP vs Inflation percentage. I would love to see the amount of inflation these countries with high GDP have as the real figure is always inflation percentage. As you trolled me with GDP data I would now like to see the inflation date to understand whether these data are relevant for a country. As I understand the GDP is irrelevant when the inflation is higher. I hope you check the inflation data of EL-Salvadore of 2022 and then rethink how good your data-driven ideology is in 2024.

Why, are you too stupid do it it yourself?

First get at least the name of the country right, but probably that's too hard for you!
Second here is the data
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1341750/inflation-rate-latin-american-countries/

Quote

Nicaragua 10.45%
Honduras 9.09%
Costa Rica 8.26%
Salvador 7.2%
Guatemala 6.89%
Belize 6.27%
Panama 2.86%

So, where is genius of Bukele?

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Quote from: stompix on March 08, 2024, 08:22:15 AM

Quote

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Quote

Guatemala 4.1% 3.5%
Panama 10.8% 5.1%
Honduras 4% 3.2%
Salvador 2.6% 2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8% 3.1%
Costa Rica 4.6% 4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

Here is my reply to you troll! Please create another sheet where in you show GDP vs Inflation percentage. I would love to see the amount of inflation these countries with high GDP have as the real figure is always inflation percentage. As you trolled me with GDP data I would now like to see the inflation date to understand whether these data are relevant for a country. As I understand the GDP is irrelevant when the inflation is higher. I hope you check the inflation data of EL-Salvadore of 2022 and then rethink how good your data-driven ideology is in 2024.

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The US cannot declare a default, because this will lead to a sharp depreciation of the dollar against other currencies. And since many countries received loans in US dollars, this means part of their debt will be forgiven due to the depreciation of the dollar. This is something the American government cannot afford.

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Quote from: zasad@ on March 09, 2024, 07:11:49 AM

You talk about repayment for a long time, but why did you decide that someone will pay these debts?

Because contrary to popular beliefs, debt gets paid!
The debt that was issued 20 years ago is not the debt that is now, countries service their debts (some!!!), despite having a debt ratio of 100% because they can afford it, some countries, even while having a debt of only 20-30% default on it, and you should know better since yours did that twice in two decade. Look at the countries that defaulted and you're going to see that most of them defaulted were countries with very low budget to gdp government collection, Greece was the only other Europeans country to default other than Russia since the 90's, and at the time it was the only country with such a low tax collection and huge underground economy.

So this is why Japan and the US haven't defaulted for four decades despite all the scaremongering, while Sri Lanka went from 20% to 105% and default in just one.

Also, since we talk facts, in order for Pakistan to pay its debt they would need 1.2 million Bitcoins!
Just to service the deficit at current levels they need 2.4 billions a year so 32 000! Bitcoins, that's 16 times more than what Salvador has each year!!!!
Some really need to understand how huge the world actually is!

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https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country
Debt to GDP Ratio by Country

Top 10 Countries with the Lowest Debt-to-GDP Ratios (%)

"While a low debt-to-GDP ratio is generally desirable, it does not necessarily indicate a healthy economy. Many stagnant or developing economies have a low debt-to-income ratio because both their level of debt and their GDP are low. In fact, in some cases, a country's economy could be healthier in the long run if the country were to borrow from another country and invest heavily in economic growth.."

This site contains everything I wanted to say.
You talk about repayment for a long time, but why did you decide that someone will pay these debts?

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Quote from: zasad@ on March 08, 2024, 09:28:32 AM

GDP to debt ratio is not a very fair indicator for many countries. Basically, all countries contribute a bunch of financial sector products to GDP, and we can see that in many countries GDP consists of financial sector indicators from 40 to 70%. And the real economy is in an even worse situation.

GDP to debt is actually a method that makes the economy look better for some poorer countries and those with large shares of black/underground economies.
Here is an interesting comparison, so we assume a 100% debt to GDP.

We take Denmark, Pakistan and Salvador.
Denmark has a GDP of 398 billion USD and a government budget of $130 billions.
So for them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 306 years.

Salvador has a GDP $31 billion of and a government budget of $9.1 billion.
For them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 340 years.

Pakistan has a GDP of 348 billion USD and a government budget of $50 billion.
For them to pay their debt with 1% increase in government spending they will need 696 years.

In short, the Pakistan govemermnt would need to raise taxation and collecting by over 100% to paint the same picture on a same level of GDP to debt ratio.
But this is data, and people hate data, they love twitter memes!

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Quote from: stompix on March 08, 2024, 08:22:15 AM

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 06, 2024, 08:50:50 AM

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary.

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:

Quote

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Quote

Guatemala 4.1% 3.5%
Panama 10.8% 5.1%
Honduras 4% 3.2%
Salvador 2.6% 2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8% 3.1%
Costa Rica 4.6% 4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

GDP to debt ratio is not a very fair indicator for many countries. Basically, all countries contribute a bunch of financial sector products to GDP, and we can see that in many countries GDP consists of financial sector indicators from 40 to 70%. And the real economy is in an even worse situation.

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Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:48:57 AM

^ You are again trolling and trying to bully me as that what you have done earlier.

Demanding you provide data for unrealistic claims is trolling?

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:48:57 AM

Let's face it you are a troll and I am the person who you always target.

Because you always make ridiculous claims, that's the reason why!
Take your time before posting things that makes no sense and the I won't correct you!
Also just end with posing as victim, you posted some bullshit and I called you on your bullshit, and the next moment you start crying, grow some balls and a thicker skin, if you can't take criticism for the shit you post online stop posting shit!!

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:48:57 AM

I am going to enjoy this discussion as I have not time now. I will get back to you tomorrow.

Done with your signature quota for the day?

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As this talk is going maybe I am wrong in my views but still I am going to give few points which are not belonged to bitcoin but related to country Pakistan with as I read and understand this is one of the twelve fertilizer countries which are full of sources, but sadly they have never been able to use them as they wanted due to corruption and many other factors which are not point to talk here but still as mentioned above main issue is Army as well which is controlling this all for decades.
Now they are in deep trouble due to heavy debit and things can go worst with a government which is not backed by common peoples due to rigged elections but still IMF is standing with them because they are also having their own agenda with this all can bitcoin save them, I believe yes but now this all need good strategy and big decisions which are surely not easy but still things are manageable with bitcoin and crypto if you want to solve things, but I have no idea who is going to do this all for this country.

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^ You are again trolling and trying to bully me as that what you have done earlier. Let's face it you are a troll and I am the person who you always target.

Wait for my reply and do remember you are trolling me about Salvador on a thread where it is about whether a falling economy like Pakistan can survive with Bitcon.

I am going to enjoy this discussion as I have not time now. I will get back to you tomorrow. Please don't hesitate to edit your reply as it is already captured.

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Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:33:06 AM

Why would I need data to back my claim?

Because that's what a normal person would do when he makes such claims!

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:33:06 AM

What's the point for you to suggest that the economy is going in shit.

Because that's what realty shows us?
How can you claim otherwise when the country has a bigger deficit, an increasing debt and it has the slowest economic growth of all the region?

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:33:06 AM

With Bitcoin pumping it is evident they would get their economy into a position where they would be not be in a position to ask guidance from IMF.

Salvador need Bitcoin at $350k for all their savings to cover just one year of deficit, so what are they going to do for next year?

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 08, 2024, 08:33:06 AM

Since you are a data fantic now, go look into the borrower list of IMF and then come up with a data.

Oh I got it, if I'm not kissing Bukele's ass and I 'm asking for proof of what he has done good for the economy I'm an undercover agent from the IMF!
But good for you, you have finally found out what's wrong with countries like this, whenever somebody comes and ask for real data or criticizing your take on what you're doing you start throwing shit at him and claim you know better! Good luck with that!

I wonder if Hitler would come back to life and he would buy Bitcoin, would you start praising him for his leadership? Wink

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Quote from: stompix on March 08, 2024, 08:22:15 AM

Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 06, 2024, 08:50:50 AM

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary.

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:

Quote

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Quote

Guatemala 4.1% 3.5%
Panama 10.8% 5.1%
Honduras 4% 3.2%
Salvador 2.6% 2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8% 3.1%
Costa Rica 4.6% 4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

Why would I need data to back my claim? Salvador is a struggling economy and that is why they are trying something new. What's the point for you to suggest that the economy is going in shit. With Bitcoin pumping it is evident they would get their economy into a position where they would be not be in a position to ask guidance from IMF.

Since you are a data fantic now, go look into the borrower list of IMF and then come up with a data. Lol! Think before you reply and then give me a data. Remember we are talking about Pakistan and not a South American countries .

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Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 06, 2024, 08:50:50 AM

EL-Salvador is a country that was the one to adopt Bitcoin as a legal tender. That was in the year 2021 when Bitcoin created a new ATH, till now they survived and improved their economy because their President was a visionary.

And do you have data backing this claim?
From another of my replies:

Quote

These are the figures of GDP growth in 2022/2023 for central america:

Quote

Guatemala 4.1% 3.5%
Panama 10.8% 5.1%
Honduras 4% 3.2%
Salvador 2.6% 2.7%
Nicaragua 3.8% 3.1%
Costa Rica 4.6% 4.1%
Belize 8.7% 4.2%

Salvador has had the lowest growth in Central America for two consecutive years!
It has run a $764.60 millions deficit last year after a previous $587.40 million deficit.
The country GDP to debt ratio has reached a new record at 80.9% and it's projected to reach 98% of GDP in 2027.

So, what good has done Bukele to the economy?

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Quote from: zasad@ on March 08, 2024, 02:17:32 AM

All politicians and businessmen, of course, lie in public speeches, and I would be more afraid to listen to the opinions of those who recommended buying Bitcoin during the last bull cycle.
Gold as a short-term reserve is not a very good way, because transactions with it are controlled in my country and in other countries and there are taxes. But on the shadow market, prices are much lower when selling, and when buying, you need to check the goods, otherwise scammers will sell a gold-plated piece of metal.

I agree that politicians lie upfront and they do use those lies for their own benefits. Whereas in that country politicians scam, use their power to make money for themselves and they get their support from the army as they are in control of everything. They as in the civilians never can say army did it, they call the army as establishment.

Even Wikipedia created a seperate page for them: Allegations of rigging in the 2024 Pakistani general election

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Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 07, 2024, 08:02:21 AM

Quote from: zasad@ on March 07, 2024, 04:10:18 AM

I am a poor communicator on the situation in Pakistan.
But I understand a little about economics.
The very first thing I tell everyone is the words of Warren Buffett: “Bitcoin will cost 0.” And this must be understood correctly.
Nobody knows when this bubble will burst, in a year or in 10-100 years, but it will burst.
For the USA and Europe, this is a very small market, and a collapse in the crypto market will not greatly affect their economy, but for small countries this can be a very fatal mistake.

I am a big Bitcoin supporter and I do not think it is a bubble, someone like Warren Buffet who is a known stooge of the US, cannot destroy my belief in Bitcoin. I do agree there is a big risk to consider Bitcoin as a legal tender due to its volatility, but when Bitcoin goes up and you as in a country have Bitcoin as a reserve rather than Gold it does increase a country's reserves.

In Pakistan, the problem is different as the current selected government is full of those who are known to be corrupt. I said selected because of the Pakistan army controlling the output of the election. If the leader is known as corrupt and the Army is known to be the backbone that controls everything happening in Pakistan how would then Bitcoin help that nation? Do a Google search about the current election in Pakistan and you will see how the Pakistani army is controlling everything happening in that country.

All politicians and businessmen, of course, lie in public speeches, and I would be more afraid to listen to the opinions of those who recommended buying Bitcoin during the last bull cycle.
Gold as a short-term reserve is not a very good way, because transactions with it are controlled in my country and in other countries and there are taxes. But on the shadow market, prices are much lower when selling, and when buying, you need to check the goods, otherwise scammers will sell a gold-plated piece of metal.

Topic: Can Bitcoin save a nation that owes a lot of money / Debt - page 2. (Read 870 times)