Pages:
Author

Topic: Can coins stocked on an old Bitcoin Core be lost ? (Read 1843 times)

hero member
Activity: 764
Merit: 500
I'm a cynic, I'm a quaint
TL;DR
Stop saying it's not possible. It's possible. There may be reasons why some want to expire old coins. Explicitly mentioned are weaknesses in the cryptography potentially leading to old coins (say Satoshi's stash) being recovered and old transactions becoming a bottle neck for nodes.

------------

The topic title shows a lack of understanding on Bitcoin. Coins are not "stocked" on a client. Transactions are stored in a ledger. The client merely holds the keys needed to manipulate those transactions. The ledger follows the rules of the Bitcoin protocol. And that protocol can (and will) be changed if the need arises. While a scenario that will lead to old unspent outputs being invalidated seems very unlikely now, a need may suddenly arise. If you own bitcoins you'd do well to keep up with news on this. There is no guarantee that you will still be able to spent an old output in the future.

Quotes, for reference:

OP's concern is valid. What if your old wallet format does not get recognized by new clients and the old clients are not able to send transactions after 2 years? (private key is relatively safe but still... see below)

In fact, in today's bitcoin design, nothing is guaranteed. A new protocol that is accepted by majority of the nodes can even spend your coins without your private key. Of course such a situation will almost never happen because of the decentralized nature of bitcoin: Existing stakeholders have many reasons to deny such kind of protocol change, since it basically ruins people's trust in bitcoin

However, if the protocol change is coming from a malicious actor or sybil attack, then old coins might still get lost in a compromised environment

The most important is to be aware that unlike gold, no rule of bitcoin is fixed by law of nature, they are just rules made by human and maintained by consensus among its participants. So you can expect that different clients have different rules, but usually you don't get enough details about these rules unless you are familiar with source code inspection and build the client by yourself each time

Theoretically, if secp256k1 were broken then there would be a strong incentive to migrate to another algorithm.  The migration may specify a deadline past which all old-format outputs are deemed unspendable.  In this event, yes, coins stored with an old version of Bitcoin Core and not rescued in time could end up locked away forever.



Expiring very old UTXOs but not reassigning their value is acceptable, though. In fact, this can be done in a softfork. I think that doing this would be a good idea:
- If apparently-lost BTC is at risk of being recovered illegitimately due to cryptographic weaknesses. The release of so many lost coins would be a major blow to the the economy. Once it looks like ECDSA will only be secure for 5 more years or so, I think that a timer should be started to expire all ECDSA-secured UTXOs at the expected point at which they will become too insecure.
- If storing the UTXO set becomes a very major bottleneck for full nodes and there are no other good alternatives to UTXO expiration on the table. Several years of advance warning should be given before the first expiration.
sr. member
Activity: 343
Merit: 250
Bonus Claim Url: http://betonline.wager.bz
Not unless your wallet.dat is corrupted, stolen, or edited.

If bitcoin is forked, the existing blockchain will still remain the same, and your coins should still be valid.

But if you don't keep your wallet updated, is recommend using a cold wallet, a coinbase vault, blockchain.info,  or even a paper wallet.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
I fee like paper wallets are your best bet.  That's the only way you can get a physical copy of your coins.  Leaving it in a wallet seems way to risky.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
i would think there would always be utilities that would export keys from old wallets to whatever current format there is.

might be a good idea to collect a bunch of utils. and a few rpis or something with various adapters to run them on.

sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
Sourceforge used to store some very old Bitcoin Qt wallet binaries before the source code was migrated to Github. They had a warning attached saying they couldn't connect to the Bitcoin network because they were no longer compatible with it.

If you had Bitcoins stored in one of those very old wallets you would have to dump your private keys, and import them into a modern wallet. The very early Qt wallet.dat files are not compatible with modern Qt binaries. Without the right historical Qt binary you would need to use a utility like Pywallet to dump your private keys from your wallet.dat file.
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1030
bits of proof
A copy of wallet.dat contains all information you need to spend or transfer your coins at any later date (except the scenario described by teukon).

I would however advise against long term storage using wallet.dat for practical reasons:

Chances are rather good that in a few years
a) a current Bitcoin Core will not even have a wallet, therefore unable to import wallet.dat
b) your old Bitcoin Core might not be able to join the network, e.g. because current nodes use a different chain download protocol and you can't find old nodes.
c) your old Bitcoin Core might create transactions that are no longer forwarded/accepted by the network because they violate some later introduced soft-fork rule
d) your choice of new wallet might not be able to import wallet.dat

There are developments in Core that support assumptions a-c and d is probable because all modern wallets use HD key generation instead of a random key chain, that is wallet.dat.

I suggest you move your coins to a more modern wallet, e.g. the TREZOR and store its recovery seed in your long term store. Also assume that you may need to move on again later.

It is a bit like converting your videos to a newer codec. Ignore the development and will become a pain, but will work with sufficient expertise.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
your question has been answered already. If you still unsure about that, just import the private key to another wallet like electrum, etc.,
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
It's not possible. Throughout updates, your wallet.dat file status static. Unless a new fork changes you're wallet.fat. you're safe. And there'll probably be a way to reclaim your coins, as there's also records in the blockchain.

The Bitcoin Core wallet.dat has gone through slight changes during Bitcoin's history, so I wouldn't say it is purely static, but it doesn't indeed make any sense if the format changed overnight Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1164
So how can you store Bitcoins as long-term savings or investments?

Probably the easiest way to securely store bitcoin long term would be to buy a Trezor hardware wallet. There are other hardware wallets but Trezor seems to be most popular. Read the user manual to see if that would work for you.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1030
give me your cryptos
It's not possible. Throughout updates, your wallet.dat file status static. Unless a new fork changes you're wallet.fat. you're safe. And there'll probably be a way to reclaim your coins, as there's also records in the blockchain.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
OP's concern is valid. What if your old wallet format does not get recognized by new clients and the old clients are not able to send transactions after 2 years? (private key is relatively safe but still... see below)

Install an older client and dump your keys. Or use wallet management software compatible with the older format Smiley

However, if the protocol change is coming from a malicious actor or sybil attack, then old coins might still get lost in a compromised environment

Wouldn't such a change be instantly discarded by the majority?

So how can you store Bitcoins as long-term savings or investments?

Some prefer to store them on encrypted backups stored offline. Others prefer paper wallets. Others prefer a mix of paper and digital... Many secure ways to store them. Obviously one has to pay attention to Bitcoin, in the remote case of what teukon wrote about happens Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 2472
https://JetCash.com
So how can you store Bitcoins as long-term savings or investments?
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1011
Theoretically, if secp256k1 were broken then there would be a strong incentive to migrate to another algorithm.  The migration may specify a deadline past which all old-format outputs are deemed unspendable.  In this event, yes, coins stored with an old version of Bitcoin Core and not rescued in time could end up locked away forever.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
OP's concern is valid. What if your old wallet format does not get recognized by new clients and the old clients are not able to send transactions after 2 years? (private key is relatively safe but still... see below)

In fact, in today's bitcoin design, nothing is guaranteed. A new protocol that is accepted by majority of the nodes can even spend your coins without your private key. Of course such a situation will almost never happen because of the decentralized nature of bitcoin: Existing stakeholders have many reasons to deny such kind of protocol change, since it basically ruins people's trust in bitcoin

However, if the protocol change is coming from a malicious actor or sybil attack, then old coins might still get lost in a compromised environment

The most important is to be aware that unlike gold, no rule of bitcoin is fixed by law of nature, they are just rules made by human and maintained by consensus among its participants. So you can expect that different clients have different rules, but usually you don't get enough details about these rules unless you are familiar with source code inspection and build the client by yourself each time

staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
Ok. Thank you. Now I'm a bit less worried Smiley. But in case of a fork that I am not aware of, if I try to send my coins, on which chain will I be ?
If the transaction was valid for both blockchains, then it would be possible for the transaction to confirm on both. However your node will only be able to use one of the forks. It will go with either the longest fork or the one that is valid under its rules if the fork was for a consensus rule change (e.g. soft fork or hard fork).
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1004
As long as you keep your private keys (secure), you will not lose your coins.

That's why I talked about paper wallets, but if you keep your coins on a wallet, can this possibility happen ?

It is the same thing. The wallet file holds your private keys. If you store it securely, you will not lose your coins, regardless of what happens.

Ok. So no Bitcoin Core update is mandatory ? And in the case of a fork, your private keys will be still working ?

No, no recent update has been absolutely mandatory, although you risk not having your transaction broadcast if you use older versions for not complying with network rules, I think.

If the network were to fork now (ex.: big block chain and small block chain), the coins you had yesterday would be valid (on both forks), because they're on both forks blockchain's history.

Ok. Thank you. Now I'm a bit less worried Smiley. But in case of a fork that I am not aware of, if I try to send my coins, on which chain will I be ?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
As long as you keep your private keys (secure), you will not lose your coins.

That's why I talked about paper wallets, but if you keep your coins on a wallet, can this possibility happen ?

It is the same thing. The wallet file holds your private keys. If you store it securely, you will not lose your coins, regardless of what happens.

Ok. So no Bitcoin Core update is mandatory ? And in the case of a fork, your private keys will be still working ?

No, no recent update has been absolutely mandatory, although you risk not having your transaction broadcast if you use older versions for not complying with network rules, I think.

If the network were to fork now (ex.: big block chain and small block chain), the coins you had yesterday would be valid (on both forks), because they're on both forks blockchain's history.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1004
As long as you keep your private keys (secure), you will not lose your coins.

That's why I talked about paper wallets, but if you keep your coins on a wallet, can this possibility happen ?

It is the same thing. The wallet file holds your private keys. If you store it securely, you will not lose your coins, regardless of what happens.

Ok. So no Bitcoin Core update is mandatory ? And in the case of a fork, your private keys will be still working ?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
As long as you keep your private keys (secure), you will not lose your coins.

That's why I talked about paper wallets, but if you keep your coins on a wallet, can this possibility happen ?

It is the same thing. The wallet file holds your private keys. If you store it securely, you will not lose your coins, regardless of what happens.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1004
As long as you keep your private keys (secure), you will not lose your coins.

That's why I talked about paper wallets, but if you keep your coins on a wallet, can this possibility happen ?
Pages:
Jump to: