Can metal detectors detect metal seed storage plates ? - page 2.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 04:30:11 AM

Hello, I would like to know if the new generation metal detectors detect or not the stainless steel of which the metal wallets are made. Indeed, if these wallets are detectable, then we should probably think about changing the hiding place or put something around them to avoid that the metal detectors find them, no? What do you think about it?

Most hardware wallets are not made from metal and stainless steel, so you don't have to worry about that.
Ledger does have one metal part made from stainless steel, but it only serves as protection for fragile plastic body and you can easily remove it yourself.
However, stainless steel is used a lot for backing up seed words, but you can add many metal decoys that would confuse metal detectors, like aluminum, lead, and certain types of clothes.

Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 11:06:09 AM

The model you show is super expensive, well unless you have millions, you can probably go for a cheaper model; the one from cryptotag is in titanium and much less expensive (https://cryptotag.io/products/zeus-starter-kit/).
And maybe look at the great tests of jameson Lopp on metalwallets (https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/). But this is not the initial subject anymore ...

OneKey is making product called OneKey KeyTag, that is made from titanium and it's not expensive at all.
You can get two plates for $59, and they often give some discounts.
https://www.onekey.so/products/onekey-keytag

Becassine

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on April 11, 2023, 01:19:30 PM

What do you have to lose if a thief gains access to your hardware wallet?

Decrypting the private key (brute force attack) usually takes several hours, and then you can easily use your seed and withdraw your coins.
You can buy several hardware wallets and load them with zero bitcoins, then you will increase the time that thief needs to access your real coins.

if metal wallet is what excites you, you can try: Stonebook ™ Notebook for Cryptocurrency Private Keys Waterproof/Ghost Pen/Shieldcrypt technology

Well, this is a bit off-topic, but it's true that it's a great idea to have a notebook made of stone paper. You can even find cheap ones, a little more anonymous we'll say ...

https://studioartshuffle.com/products/cahier-dannotation-en-papier-de-pierre-couverture-turquoise

Yamane_Keto

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What do you have to lose if a thief gains access to your hardware wallet?

Decrypting the private key (brute force attack) usually takes several hours, and then you can easily use your seed and withdraw your coins.
You can buy several hardware wallets and load them with zero bitcoins, then you will increase the time that thief needs to access your real coins.

if metal wallet is what excites you, you can try: Stonebook ™ Notebook for Cryptocurrency Private Keys Waterproof/Ghost Pen/Shieldcrypt technology

Danydee

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The writing technic I mentioned allow you for example to make your backup on a ceramic board, to protect it from broking you can put it in a case of composite materials.. add a layer of glass wool for additional protection and encapsulate all on a clay brick you made or on a rock you made from concrete, if you want bury it on the soil !

Or about metal plates maybe you can hide them inside the panel of a safe ??

But I think that if a robber have an access and get the time for finding your hidden backup he can use a large variety of more sofisticated instruments.. like these (sonars) that gives clear images of the buried objects ! and that are actually quite approachable technologies!

PrivacyG

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As far as I know, depth also matters. The deeper you bury it, the harder they find it.

I remember some body saying it would be a good idea to bury some random stainless steel bolts and stuff like in between the thing you want to hide and the ground. But bury them as if some body accidentally dropped them there, not all stuck together. No idea if this actually is a good tip.

Then there are people who bury their valuables under a tree. Again. Maybe this does not add any security at all against metal detectors.

This makes me wonder. What happens if you bury random copper stuff from a hardware store over the stainless steel plate you want to bury? If the copper stuff you bury exceeds the size of the stainless steel plate, would it pick up stainless steel too? There should be a metal burglars or even metal detector enthusiasts are least likely to dig up.

Becassine

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Quote from: bettercrypto on April 11, 2023, 09:38:09 AM

What kind of metal detector are you talking about? is this the one used to detect metal on a surface object? Also about the wallet that you say is a metal wallet, is this the ledger, Nano or what?

As it is not clear what you want to convey, can you clarify what you are really referring to in this topic that you have made here.

Hello,

I don't see what's not clear: I reread my message, I don't know what to change. Or is it a translation problem? With a picture it's better? As for the metalwallets, look at Jameson Lopp's tests and you'll know what it means Wink

https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-tests-round-v/

bettercrypto

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What kind of metal detector are you talking about? is this the one used to detect metal on a surface object? Also about the wallet that you say is a metal wallet, is this the ledger, Nano or what?

As it is not clear what you want to convey, can you clarify what you are really referring to in this topic that you have made here.

Danydee

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Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 04:19:34 PM

I think you have to be a bit cheap not to buy a ready-made metal wallet, don't you?

Maybe.. another case is to be in control .. in example

Becassine

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Quote from: Danydee on April 10, 2023, 03:18:13 PM

If you're afraid about simple metal detectors, you can just make a hiding in near of the pillars for example where there is habitually steel for reinforcing the concrete! (I think)

About writing in plates I don't miss the occasion to remind about my little trick about it Grin

Actually you can use any kind of plate you want and writing on it by coding the words in morse alphabet (for exemple)!

So just by using two sizes of metal drills you can write by makink two small holes for ( long : _ ) and one large hole for ( short : . ) .

So the word "METAL" could looks like this !

--	*	--	*	*
--			--	--
				*
				*

[/font]

A this like it is more simple I you want coding the phrase in your own..

or you can also choose to write in some form of freemasonic ciphering, it can also transcribed just by drilling on the plate !

I think you have to be a bit cheap not to buy a ready-made metal wallet, don't you?
Anyway, that's not the point, the point is that it's not detectable by a burglar. But for the moment in France anyway, a burglar wouldn't know what it is and he won't know it for at least a good ten years... The advantage of being late in a way ...

Danydee

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If you're afraid about simple metal detectors, you can just make a hiding in near of the pillars for example where there is habitually steel for reinforcing the concrete! (I think)

About writing in plates I don't miss the occasion to remind about my little trick about it Grin

Actually you can use any kind of plate you want and writing on it by coding the words in morse alphabet (for exemple)!

So just by using two sizes of metal drills you can write by makink two small holes for ( long : _ ) and one large hole for ( short : . ) .

So the word "METAL" could looks like this !

--	*	--	*	*
--			--	--
				*
				*

[/font]

A this like it is more simple I you want coding the phrase in your own..

or you can also choose to write in some form of freemasonic ciphering, it can also transcribed just by drilling on the plate !

Becassine

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Quote from: Synchronice on April 10, 2023, 09:54:52 AM

Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 08:01:03 AM

According to my internet research, like stainless steel, an ordinary metal detector cannot locate titanium because it has low electrical conductivity.

Well, instead of hardware wallet, you can buy Trezor's titanium backup system, store your seeds into it and then save safely. Alternatively, seems, there is a company that makes Titanium hardware wallets but that just comes from quick google search, I don't know a thing about them but still worth to check, sounds interesting: Corazon Titanium.
Or just write down your seeds on paper and save it somewhere where thieves won't start searching, for example behind the wallpaper of living room, idk, that's up to you.

The model you show is super expensive, well unless you have millions, you can probably go for a cheaper model; the one from cryptotag is in titanium and much less expensive (https://cryptotag.io/products/zeus-starter-kit/).
And maybe look at the great tests of jameson Lopp on metalwallets (https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test--part-ii-/). But this is not the initial subject anymore ...

Synchronice

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Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 08:01:03 AM

According to my internet research, like stainless steel, an ordinary metal detector cannot locate titanium because it has low electrical conductivity.

Well, instead of hardware wallet, you can buy Trezor's titanium backup system, store your seeds into it and then save safely. Alternatively, seems, there is a company that makes Titanium hardware wallets but that just comes from quick google search, I don't know a thing about them but still worth to check, sounds interesting: Corazon Titanium.
Or just write down your seeds on paper and save it somewhere where thieves won't start searching, for example behind the wallpaper of living room, idk, that's up to you.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 08:01:03 AM

According to my internet research, like stainless steel, an ordinary metal detector cannot locate titanium because it has low electrical conductivity.

Titanium is probably the gold standard (pun intended) metal to use. It has a slightly higher yield strength than stainless steel, has a slightly higher melting point, is slightly less reactive, is slightly less conductive, and so on, but it is also significantly more expensive. These extra benefits are almost certainly meaningless - both will survive any kind of house fire or other household accidents or events equally well (provided they are of sufficient thickness), and it would take things like exposure to a blast furnace or some industrial strength acid before you noticed a difference.

If you have some titanium lying around then go ahead and use it, but there is no point coughing up the extra money when stainless steel will work just as well for all realistic eventualities.

stompix

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 10, 2023, 07:56:18 AM

The general advice if going for a metal back up is to use stainless steel, since this gives a good balance between hardness, fire proof, corrosion proof, as well as cost. In general, stainless steel is a very poor conductor of electricity and poorly magnetic when compared to most other metals, and can often go undetected by metal detectors, especially if it is very small in size.

This! If you use stainless steel with small washers the whole thing will be around 2.5 cm by 6 cm, easy to hide, with poor conductivity a thief will have to increase the pulse of the detector to a frequency where every hinge in the room will trigger a signal even if they are a meter away, if you hide this in a garage or in a cabinet made out of metal any metal detector would be useless and going through the things by hand will be way faster.

But also, this is only if we talk about commercial detectors.
Professional magnetometers with scan analysis will show the user every tiny bit of metal everywhere, but I somehow doubt a thief will rush and buy a 25k Euros piece of equipment to search for washers in your home.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 10, 2023, 07:56:18 AM

I have to say though, if you have a thief in your house using a metal detector to find your metal back up, then your op-sec has spectacularly failed and everything you have is probably at risk by that point.

If you have someone who is ready to break into your house with this target in mind, knowing you have enough coins to make it worth stealing and facing prison time then one should be concerned for their safety also. From just a "normal" burglary to getting kidnapped or assaulted and getting to witness a $5 dollar wrench attack it's just a matter of how much $ you are hiding.

Pmalek

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Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 08:01:03 AM

According to my internet research, like stainless steel, an ordinary metal detector cannot locate titanium because it has low electrical conductivity.

Titanium is expensive, and you aren't going to see it in ordinary hardware wallets unless a company creates something like that for VIPs and similar. Ledger's cover is made of stainless steel for example, so that's a more frequent material. Besides the connectors and boards that have some metal components, I can't think of a popular hardware wallet with a metal back cover or a big metal part like that of Ledger.

Are you also talking about the metal seed plates or only hardware wallets?

Becassine

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Quote from: Pmalek on April 10, 2023, 07:38:38 AM

I think you misunderstood OP. He is not talking about the metal detectors in airports or government buildings, but hand-carried devices. As in, a thief entering your home with a metal detector and scanning your house with it. Our homes have metal anyways. In walls, the floor, and ceiling. You have pipes and wires running everywhere. You have the supporting metal structure, then screws and nails in your furniture. I guess the metal detector would be buzzing more often then you think.

Ah yes that's it, that's why I didn't understand really the previous answer, but it's true that it must not pass very well at the airport portals I suppose. However, it seems that stainless steel is not detectable by burglars' metal detectors.

According to my internet research, like stainless steel, an ordinary metal detector cannot locate titanium because it has low electrical conductivity.

o_e_l_e_o

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It depends what metal you use.

The general advice if going for a metal back up is to use stainless steel, since this gives a good balance between hardness, fire proof, corrosion proof, as well as cost. In general, stainless steel is a very poor conductor of electricity and poorly magnetic when compared to most other metals, and can often go undetected by metal detectors, especially if it is very small in size. If you are very concerned about such an attack, then just use two or more paper back ups in different geographical locations. This is generally better than a single metal back up anyway.

I have to say though, if you have a thief in your house using a metal detector to find your metal back up, then your op-sec has spectacularly failed and everything you have is probably at risk by that point.

Pmalek

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I think you misunderstood OP. He is not talking about the metal detectors in airports or government buildings, but hand-carried devices. As in, a thief entering your home with a metal detector and scanning your house with it. Our homes have metal anyways. In walls, the floor, and ceiling. You have pipes and wires running everywhere. You have the supporting metal structure, then screws and nails in your furniture. I guess the metal detector would be buzzing more often then you think.

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Yes, it would definitely be detected by metal detectors if you're passing through the machine.

Quote from: Becassine on April 10, 2023, 04:30:11 AM

then we should probably think about changing the hiding place or put something around them to avoid that the metal detectors find them, no?

• I find it cumbersome to carry bitcoins with you in metal wallets when travelling. You can keep that in a secure location and take a paper backup of the seedphrase with you. It's easier to travel with and not easily detectable.

• Simply putting something around them would not prevent detection.

Becassine

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Hello, I would like to know if the new generation metal detectors detect or not the stainless steel of which the metal stuff for seed storage are made. Indeed, if these wallets are detectable, then we should probably think about changing the hiding place or put something around them to avoid that the metal detectors find them, no? What do you think about it?

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