Topic: can mining algorithyms be changed to benefit humanity (Read 3391 times)

the solution is they should write out some kind of explanation of their stance in some format that is more durable and presentable.

I've used online forums a lot and I also sympathize with the other side of things.  Especially recently with the runup in BTC price, I imagine the veterans are suddenly having to contend with a flood of ignoramuses with 'brilliant ideas'.  For instance Reddit is a great way to determine popularity, perhaps the worst way to determine validity.

I agree. And have you noticed that most of the time the attitudes are from Hero members with high activity numbers?

Ken,

  agree with you that some of the attitudes here are not constructive.

  Doesn't the forum software filter out irrelevant posts that no one reads?  Obviously this is a topic of great interest to the public, and not well presented.  Unfortunately some here see this as a problem rather than an opportunity.

-bm

Thank you for your kind words and for standing up for what is decent.  Perhaps if more members in your movement come out publicly like you just did with the right attitude, your movement will eventually gain real traction.

All the best.

I'm sorry that you have found the worst side of this forum's trolls. I have also endured their unnecessary banality and harshness. I'm not in this moment to collaborate with them. My goal is to use Bitcoin as a vehicle to change the world's money system.

Please understand that while your question is valid and should receive an answer, bitcointalk really isn't the place to answer it. In the coming months, we'll build better communities that are more respectful and willing to listen. I hope you'll join us.

Until then, thank you for the opportunity to meet and I wish you well.

Actually, sir or madam, I've gotten just enough snarky comments, and been shown enough disrespect by others for my little question (which some seem to think is a good idea and even feasible), that I think I will take your advice and move on. 

Over the course of this post I have gone from being a Bitcoin enthusiast--to not wanting to have anything to do with it.  In ten years on the internet I have only a few times been treated in the rude and disrespectful manner some of you have shown. 

Thank you for helping to reveal to me that yours is a movement where I don't belong and should not transact business--nor should my large family business accept Bitcoin.  I will be selling my mining rigs and donate the proceeds to BOINC, with the suggestion that they use the proceeds to research how to make it feasible for gamers to contribute GPU time to projects like BOINC.

It is now clear to me that you have a very uphill fight to gain the kind of confidence your movement seems to desire--beyond the support you have garnered on the Silk Road.  Your peers talk about making the world a better place with this project's remedy to the world's problems--but there are too many flies in the ointment for my taste and I don't think most people, in the long run, will choose to do business in this manner.

Though I do wish the best of luck to those of you who have been polite and informative to me in the past.

Get me out of here!

That would work great if a browser bundle such as the Tor Browser was made. Manually programming and unprogramming the DNS isn't fun.

Can't all the games gamers play be modified to benefit humanity? Go bother them, there are more of them than us.

agreed namecoin is downright essential for a censorship free internet, I hope everyone is supporting namecoin with some processing power. We should all start registering our domains through it.

The biggest benefit for the humanity is to weaken the supercontrol of superstates over the individuals.
Then research will be used more for the human interests as more we can achieve this with decentralized finance and domain system.
Bitcoin and Namecoin is serving indirect for this purpose. And mining  has an important role in this process.

Then join a project you find more rewarding, like World Community Grid, wich have biological and medical projects

sure why not? AIcoin?

the problems that AIs face is not daunting, you just have to simplify it, what does a AI need? What problems does it have to solve?

image recognition
audio processing
language processing
logic processing
pattern recognition
semantics processing etc

the problems built into a strong foundation would auto generate into real world solutions the complexity would increase naturally, no need for a timer, the problems will level out themselves as long as a broad and thorough foundation is built for it.

the technology is already out there, but as discussed on this thread Bitcoin already has the security and system worked out, all that would be needed is to build the system and then let people work on the system for free and when people donate to the AIcoin AI daemon it distributes the coins with a properly thought out incentive system. something along the lines of

minimum wage for average processing power +/- from that point according to the results provided, more results with more performance equals greater share of the donations.
This would need to be calculated by the average donations given over the life of the project.

Here's my crazy idea for changing proof of work to create a rapidly evolving artificial intelligence: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/crazy-idea-aicoin-215333

Even if it works, it might not be a good idea

there are all types here on the forums but mainly it seems that we are a technical bunch working out how to understand the system that was built and poking at it, trying to break it, Most people do not understand money. so I will tell you what Bitcoin truly is

Bitcoin is a money transfer system made to exchange from one currency to another anywhere in the world. The money aspect of it is inherent in its nature... to transfer money it has to be money as well, but money with far more flexibility than normal money to handle individual preferences, it has a language of it's own to create custom financial services depending on the users needs, it is ultra secure, has little to no fees, can transfer funds instantaneously around the world with a fee based security confirmation period to guarantee transaction integrity; Bitcoin makes individuals into their own banks, it has effectively automated the banking industry.

this is a massive experiment, that is accruing data not just from the blockchain but from the people who are creating products for it or simplifying it or altering the system, you can look at the scrypt examples from litecoin, or the pummeling it is getting from satoshi dice to see how people are trying to break it and how the people themselves are reacting to these changes... it is a experiment of unprecedented proportions around a simplified system: money.

right now Bitcoin is the most secure system for transferring a Points based currency, The complexity of creating a Proof Of Work from scientific data is definitely daunting, building on top of bitcoin is the answer, the security of the currency doesn't have to be put into question.

A great aspect of bitcoin is since it can create any entity into being a bank, it means that A.I.s can use this currency to provide automated escrow services, or in the case of a system like F@H a reward system to be distributed to all data processors; now there will always be people willing to give their processing away for free but when you can see how much more powerful Bitcon is than F@H you begin to understand that not all people are motivated by complex difficult to understand values... money, anyone can understand, that is what is holding back F@H it relies on deep thinking, intelligent people... most people just want to get drunk and get lucky.

Regardless if they are contributing to society or building their own prison; people work not because they believe in the work they get paid to do, its just a job and we can never hope to motivate these people with our values, we have to work with the values they have been brainwashed into accepting.

so all we have to do is convince the people at Boinc to provide a fee based processing system, and with the new breakthrough in Homomorphic encryption we can now process private data from corporations and government without them worrying about us working for the competition. So relax brother we just have to wait for someone to implement the Bitcoin pay per cycle system and they will see how much more people get motivated to help the rest of humanity.

 

I'd like to thank everyone in this thread who answered my question about using Bitcoin verifying computer power directly for something useful-- in a positive tone, and who referred me to other sources.

A few of you raised some interesting and perplexing issues.

I am genuinely perplexed by the comment,

"Sigh.  Stick around for a while and you'll see why most of your suggestions on manners are unworkable".

"There are demons lurking in the corners, just waiting to swallow the careless."

I'm sure the latter statement is true.  The internet in general seems to be perfectly reflective of life in general.  But surely it can't be true that in order to communicate and do business, that we have to adopt the lingo and mannerisms of the thugs?  In fact, in life, and on the internet most don't do that.  In life and on the internet there are two domains (roughly)--the domain of the reasonably "respectable" who act and communicate with a reasonable amount of decorum.  And the domain of the evil thugs.

Are you saying that the Bit coin world has become so influenced by the latter that falling to that level is warranted and necessary--for whatever reason.  Or that the people most interested in joining the community are the thugs..so one has to speak their language?

One thing I have noticed--having read the Newbie pages and researched what is going on...is that on the one hand, the uber-goal of bit-coiners is to have the movement become mainstream and, in so doing, revolutionize the way the world does business--for the betterment of humanity.  There is passion for this--though some of this passion comes from a politically extreme end of the spectrum--which is a bit unsettling to some.  Although I think that those of us who are not Libertarians in the real world and who don't want Vermont to become a free state--take a more naive Marxist rather than hard core communist view of the kind of Libertarianism Bit coin poses.

I also see a long of young people frustrated with the world economy who have been given hope by the movement.

At the same time though, I must say that my impression so far is that the Bit coin world has evolved into a very closed "society"--replete with a language of its own, an odd set of acceptable social morays of its own, etc.  There are several pages in the Newbie material defining the many colorful, but bizarre expressions used in Bit coin parlance.

If it is the goal of the movement to become mainstream and to change the world--surely you don't at the same time expect that the world to be willing to learn dozens and dozens of new words for concepts ranging from the simple to the completely arcane?

I never asked or expected to be spoon fed information (though I expect if you want the world to come a long that is precisely what you are going to have to figure out how to do).

I am a reasonably intelligent person with a higher education--and for what it is worth coming from an outsider--what is going on here is way too complex in its current form (from concept, to language to implementation) to ever be ready for prime time in the real world.

I have tried and failed to explain the basic concept to others.  I have tried and failed to use the tools available (the exchanges, the wallets, etc.) as a means through which I can securely store wealth and transact business.

But that's not my problem (yet).  What would really be sad is if all of you who have done so much gratis work for this project--will in the future have the fruits of your toil co-opted by others who realize that the thing right now is just too complex and frankly--a bit strange.

The reason I personally am interested in the original issue I raised about making better use of the computer power involved in Bitcoin, is the following.

I happen to not have a job because I am disabled.  I have spent time since becoming disabled reaching out to the world through projects such as getting kids worldwide interested in math and science through Astronomy.  I am also, like someone else who commented on the thread, in the top 1% of BOINC users.

I have a lot of time and energy to contribute to a worthy cause--and I happen to agree that the basic Bit coin model is inspiring.

I happen to be comfortable enough financially that I don't need to strike it rich as a prospector--though it seemed interesting enough to try (as a learning experience and financial game) to try my hand at mining on a not insignificant scale (12K in lite coin type GPU mining rigs--18 7970s).  And yes, I will be donating what I gain to NPOs and causes I believe in "for the betterment of humanity".

So if you need someone to formulate educational ideas, etc--maybe I'm your man.  Because you definitely need this as a community.  Everything I've discovered clearly points to the fact that the concept is sound--but needs to be simplified, and aside from technical advances-- just streamlined conceptually

So naturally I am interested in the idea of using the computing power used in verifying blocks to, at the same time, contribute to our well being as a species in other areas.  It is not enough and very facile to just say that the benefits of the Bitcoin itself to the world is enough to justify the use of energy and computational power.

This issue, as one of you has pointed out, in responding that it is not impossible to harness this power, is not trivial.  It also just happens to be, in my view, one of the stumbling blocks associated with the public's resistance to the idea.  It is the part of the concept which seems a bit fishy--until explained at a level far too deep to be of any real interest or value to the average person.

Wouldn't it be such a natural fit and easy sell if you could say everything you are saying already--with the added dimension of at the same time creating a supercomputer network to do cancer research?

I know many of you feel that the public will eventually just have to go along with the idea--perhaps without even knowing that they are doing that--just as we all had to figure out how to use Paypal if we wanted to certain types of internet transactions (and regretted it later when our accounts were frozen).

A lot of people also keep saying, when it comes to the crypto currency movement and alt coins in particular--that it is the coin which will really bring something new to the table that will be the major player still standing at the end of the day.  Do you guys really aspire to become "Netscape"?

I think it is quite possible the harnessing of the calculations themselves to do something useful might well be the thing which seals the deal.  It would make it hard for the government to object, make people feel good about using the currency and help the movement shed its seedy silk road associations.  Not saying that gangsters wouldn't still use it to launder their money--just saying from a PR Point of view it is irresistible.

I don't have the background to even follow much of what was outlined in this link (though I am in awe of whoever wrote it):

- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/least-action-principle-as-an-alternative-proof-of-work-system-108888

But if it is possible--I'd certainly be willing to support a serious effort to make it feasible.  I'd even be willing to try to do it within the framework of Bitcoin itself (rather than an Altcoin)--because Bitcoin is where all the blood, sweat and tears has been invested.

But you guys are a very strange bunch and you also seem to be a bit war weary and shell shocked--radicalized even to the point of some of you having forgotten basic common decency--over the gosh knows what kind of challenges you have faced in the past couple of years.

You are also a scary bunch in that half the time, I have no idea with whom I am dealing--silk roader? idealist? speculator? IT nerd? Political agitator? etc., etc.,

So that is what is on my mind.  I think it would be best to see if what I say strikes a spark in any of you.

All the best.

Cheers,

Ken

I'm guessing you actually mean redirecting 10% of all hashpower. How would us submitting hashes do anything helpful? A SHA256 hash won't bring development forward for SHA-4 or something.

Would it be possible to use the difficulty level somehow as a base of computation derived for other kinds of research?

What if for instance, difficult is reduced 10% and that extra 10% goes to some researching by using some algorithm that makes sure that it actually goes for that purpose and bring the same security than the current protocol offers so it can be hackable?

Related:

BTC-like cryptocurrency with arbitrary tradeable computation in proofs of work
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/btc-like-cryptocurrency-with-arbitrary-tradeable-computation-in-proofs-of-work-64421

Least action principle as an alternative proof of work system
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/least-action-principle-as-an-alternative-proof-of-work-system-108888

Curecoin beta?
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/curecoin-beta-225895  <-- I can't remember if this was an authentic attempt or a scamcoin proposal,  

Crazy idea: AICoin
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/crazy-idea-aicoin-215333

[Edited: Added entry for AICoin]

The answer is actually yes. The proof of work can be modified to allow distributed computing projects be involved in the verification of blocks. This topic is non-trivial and would require an extremely deep discussion. No one has done it and it isn't possible to do with that way Bitcoin works at the moment. It would require an altcoin.

Sigh.  Stick around for a while and you'll see why most of your suggestions on manners are unworkable.  There are more of these topics than you can imagine.  I actually was working on a set of canned replies, complete with useful links.  I already have a full time job.  I don't have enough time in my days to do anything useful if I'm spending my days as a google proxy.

Also, bitcoin is a big complicated system.  There are demons lurking in the corners, just waiting to swallow the careless.  If you hope to understand it, you need to do research.  Lots and lots of research.  I'm sorry that we can't spoon feed you what you need to know, but, we can't.  There are people working on education projects, and lots of us are contributing time and money to help them.  But most of us don't have the resources to do individual training for everyone that walks in the door.

The quick answer, in case anyone finds this thread instead of the dozens of others on the topic, is that the proof of work algorithm needs a constellation of peculiar properties.  Hashing is a perfect fit.  It can be chained, it can protect arbitrary data, it is fast to verify, it has a very large range, and there are no major shortcuts possible.  So far as we can tell, nothing else does everything we need.