Can the U.S. government sell seized bitcoins? - page 2.

Itun

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Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 07:04:29 PM

Quote from: Itun on December 10, 2013, 07:01:54 PM

Quote from: BurtW on December 10, 2013, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: kickingcoin on December 10, 2013, 01:42:04 PM

what if the persons wallet was encrypted and use did not give them the password?
Can they not only seize if they confiscate the pc/hardware? what if the back up was placed on to the cloud and a transaction was made on another pc?

They already moved them (so they have the keys). Some are here:

http://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

The rest are here:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH

So, by moving the coins and consolidating them they have been shown to own them.

This may not be all of them but it is the BTC that the FBI has found so far.

Holy crap the FBI has a lot.

If they sell the btc at market price right now, it will surely pay them back for the expenses of the investigation.

And then some... Probably the expenses for the whole year! Wink

I know.. seriously, FBI made bank busting Silk Road! Cheesy

The government should use the money to pay for its debts though, it has too much...

nahtnam

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nahtnam.com

Quote from: Itun on December 10, 2013, 07:01:54 PM

Quote from: BurtW on December 10, 2013, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: kickingcoin on December 10, 2013, 01:42:04 PM

what if the persons wallet was encrypted and use did not give them the password?
Can they not only seize if they confiscate the pc/hardware? what if the back up was placed on to the cloud and a transaction was made on another pc?

They already moved them (so they have the keys). Some are here:

http://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

The rest are here:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH

So, by moving the coins and consolidating them they have been shown to own them.

This may not be all of them but it is the BTC that the FBI has found so far.

Holy crap the FBI has a lot.

If they sell the btc at market price right now, it will surely pay them back for the expenses of the investigation.

And then some... Probably the expenses for the whole year! Wink

Itun

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Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: BurtW on December 10, 2013, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: kickingcoin on December 10, 2013, 01:42:04 PM

what if the persons wallet was encrypted and use did not give them the password?
Can they not only seize if they confiscate the pc/hardware? what if the back up was placed on to the cloud and a transaction was made on another pc?

They already moved them (so they have the keys). Some are here:

http://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

The rest are here:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH

So, by moving the coins and consolidating them they have been shown to own them.

This may not be all of them but it is the BTC that the FBI has found so far.

Holy crap the FBI has a lot.

If they sell the btc at market price right now, it will surely pay them back for the expenses of the investigation.

nahtnam

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Activity: 1092

Merit: 1000

nahtnam.com

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 10, 2013, 06:56:22 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 06:13:21 PM

You said that the government can regulate bitxoin... What exactly do they do?

I didn't say that. There is no "can" about it.

FinCEN has stated that exchanging virtual currency for real currency is a regulated activity so they already ARE regulating that activity. As for what does that constitute? Well that is a little off topic but generally speaking a money service business must:
a) register with FinCen
b) keep records on clients & transactions
c) implement an AML program
d) report suspicious transactions and other transactions over reporting threshold.

AML? And of course pay taxes. Wink

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 06:13:21 PM

You said that the government can regulate bitxoin... What exactly do they do?

I didn't say that. There is no "can" about it.

FinCEN has stated that exchanging virtual currency for real currency is a regulated activity so they already ARE regulating that activity. As for what does that constitute? Well that is a little off topic but generally speaking a money service business must:
a) register with FinCen
b) keep records on clients & transactions
c) implement an AML program
d) report suspicious transactions and other transactions over reporting threshold.

nahtnam

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 10, 2013, 05:18:38 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 05:14:52 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 10, 2013, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 05:09:47 PM

Quote from: freakying99 on December 10, 2013, 01:30:08 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 01:27:36 PM

Now that bitcoin is called a currency by the government, can the sell btc's seized from raids?

Bitcoin is not called a currency by the government Wink

And yes, seized things are regulary auctioned

Really? I was told that btc is consided a currency by the us government.

No FinCEN stated that virtual currencies are regulated as a method of money transmission then never indicated they are considered a currency under US law. In the Senate hearing it even came up "what is Bitcoin? A commodity? A currency? Something else?" and the experts did not provide an answer and FinCEN indicated that decision is outside of FinCEN's "scope".

Part of the issue is most US laws & regulations define currency as the money of the United States or a foreign nation which Bitcoin obviously is not. Remember these laws were written when nobody considered the possibility of a currency that is neither the money of the United States, nor issued by any foreign government.

So bitcoins is just bitcoin? There is no classification for it?

Yes although FinCEN has indicated that the exchanging of virtual currency for real currency is money transmission and those entities are regulated as money service businesses. However this doesn't really classify Bitcoin rather it says "we regulate money service businesses and this is one form of it, just like gift cards, prepaid accounts, check cashing, etc are other forms of money service businesses". FinCEN kinda sidestepped the classification by saying it doesn't matter if it is a currency or not we still regulate it. In the hearing they pointblank said that the authority to classify Bitcoin as a curency, or commodity, or something else does not lie with them but they will regulate it anyways. AFAIK no other governmental agency or legislative body in the US has made any kind of definitive classification.

I am sure it will eventually happen. Germany has classified Bitcoin as a private money, a financial instrument. Governments like boxes so they will either put it into a box, or make a new box as the idea of something outside of a box is horrifying to legislators.

You said that the government can regulate bitxoin... What exactly do they do?

hromobiti

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 10, 2013, 05:12:30 PM

Part of the issue is most US laws & regulations define currency as the money of the United States or a foreign nation which Bitcoin obviously is not. Remember these laws were written when nobody considered the possibility of a currency that is neither the money of the United States, nor issued by any foreign government.

What if some small foreign nation declare Bitcoin as native currency, the US Banks could buy/sell it and provide Bitcoin accounts I guess

emmocks

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They may wait to sell it cheaply under a crash, to try to undermine it.The profit is negligible, but then, so is that i guess..

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 05:14:52 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 10, 2013, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 05:09:47 PM

Quote from: freakying99 on December 10, 2013, 01:30:08 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 01:27:36 PM

Now that bitcoin is called a currency by the government, can the sell btc's seized from raids?

Bitcoin is not called a currency by the government Wink

And yes, seized things are regulary auctioned

Really? I was told that btc is consided a currency by the us government.

No FinCEN stated that virtual currencies are regulated as a method of money transmission then never indicated they are considered a currency under US law. In the Senate hearing it even came up "what is Bitcoin? A commodity? A currency? Something else?" and the experts did not provide an answer and FinCEN indicated that decision is outside of FinCEN's "scope".

Part of the issue is most US laws & regulations define currency as the money of the United States or a foreign nation which Bitcoin obviously is not. Remember these laws were written when nobody considered the possibility of a currency that is neither the money of the United States, nor issued by any foreign government.

So bitcoins is just bitcoin? There is no classification for it?

Yes although FinCEN has indicated that the exchanging of virtual currency for real currency is money transmission and those entities are regulated as money service businesses. However this doesn't really classify Bitcoin rather it says "we regulate money service businesses and this is one form of it, just like gift cards, prepaid accounts, check cashing, etc are other forms of money service businesses". FinCEN kinda sidestepped the classification by saying it doesn't matter if it is a currency or not we still regulate it. In the hearing they pointblank said that the authority to classify Bitcoin as a curency, or commodity, or something else does not lie with them but they will regulate it anyways. AFAIK no other governmental agency or legislative body in the US has made any kind of definitive classification.

I am sure it will eventually happen. Germany has classified Bitcoin as a private money, a financial instrument. Governments like boxes so they will either put it into a box, or make a new box as the idea of something outside of a box is horrifying to legislators.

microman2006

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great question

nahtnam

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on December 10, 2013, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 05:09:47 PM

Quote from: freakying99 on December 10, 2013, 01:30:08 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 01:27:36 PM

Now that bitcoin is called a currency by the government, can the sell btc's seized from raids?

Bitcoin is not called a currency by the government Wink

And yes, seized things are regulary auctioned

Really? I was told that btc is consided a currency by the us government.

No FinCEN stated that virtual currencies are regulated as a method of money transmission then never indicated they are considered a currency under US law. In the Senate hearing it even came up "what is Bitcoin? A commodity? A currency? Something else?" and the experts did not provide an answer and FinCEN indicated that decision is outside of FinCEN's "scope".

Part of the issue is most US laws & regulations define currency as the money of the United States or a foreign nation which Bitcoin obviously is not. Remember these laws were written when nobody considered the possibility of a currency that is neither the money of the United States, nor issued by any foreign government.

So bitcoins is just bitcoin? There is no classification for it?

nahtnam

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Activity: 1092

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nahtnam.com

Quote from: kickingcoin on December 10, 2013, 01:42:04 PM

what if the persons wallet was encrypted and use did not give them the password?
Can they not only seize if they confiscate the pc/hardware? what if the back up was placed on to the cloud and a transaction was made on another pc?

Of course there are ways to keep the btc away from the government but for most of the time it's as easy as confiscating a laptop.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 05:09:47 PM

Quote from: freakying99 on December 10, 2013, 01:30:08 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 01:27:36 PM

Now that bitcoin is called a currency by the government, can the sell btc's seized from raids?

Bitcoin is not called a currency by the government Wink

And yes, seized things are regulary auctioned

Really? I was told that btc is consided a currency by the us government.

No FinCEN stated that virtual currencies are regulated as a method of money transmission then never indicated they are considered a currency under US law. In the Senate hearing it even came up "what is Bitcoin? A commodity? A currency? Something else?" and the experts did not provide an answer and FinCEN indicated that decision is outside of FinCEN's "scope".

Part of the issue is most US laws & regulations define currency as the money of the United States or a foreign nation which Bitcoin obviously is not. Remember these laws were written when nobody considered the possibility of a currency that is neither the money of the United States, nor issued by any foreign government.

nahtnam

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Quote from: RodeoX on December 10, 2013, 01:37:27 PM

I wrote an email to the DOJ explaining that bitcoin is about to crash to ZERO!! The email showed them how to sell me the coins for $100, so that they not left holding the bag.

Maybe they'll noob out, and panic sell their coins. Grin

Ha ha ha. Buy asant a you can and give them my email address... I'm willing to buy! Grin

nahtnam

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Quote from: freakying99 on December 10, 2013, 01:30:08 PM

Quote from: nahtnam on December 10, 2013, 01:27:36 PM

Now that bitcoin is called a currency by the government, can the sell btc's seized from raids?

Bitcoin is not called a currency by the government Wink

And yes, seized things are regulary auctioned

Really? I was told that btc is consided a currency by the us government.

ajax3592

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Activity: 210

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Crypto News & Tutorials - Coinramble.com

Quote from: RodeoX on December 10, 2013, 01:37:27 PM

I wrote an email to the DOJ explaining that bitcoin is about to crash to ZERO!! The email showed them how to sell me the coins for $100, so that they not left holding the bag.

Maybe they'll noob out, and panic sell their coins. Grin

Lol if they do, let me know I'll help you to arrange for the fiat Grin

We'll partner up hehe

Ecurb123

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of course they can, why not? At least it will probably cost them more than they earn though, just because of the bureaucracy.

BurtW

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All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/04/fbi-silk-road-bitcoin-seizure/

devthedev

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Of course they can, why wouldn't they?

I think there are certain legal proceedings though.

BurtW

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All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

Quote from: kickingcoin on December 10, 2013, 01:42:04 PM

what if the persons wallet was encrypted and use did not give them the password?
Can they not only seize if they confiscate the pc/hardware? what if the back up was placed on to the cloud and a transaction was made on another pc?

They already moved them (so they have the keys). Some are here:

http://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

The rest are here:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH

So, by moving the coins and consolidating them they have been shown to own them.

This may not be all of them but it is the BTC that the FBI has found so far.

Topic: Can the U.S. government sell seized bitcoins? - page 2. (Read 1880 times)