Can we choose our own seed words? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Yamane_Keto

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Quote from: nelson4lov on August 27, 2023, 05:06:06 PM

Possible yes, but highly discouraged because entropy has to be generated securely.

As I explained, there is no reason for a person to choose seed words, except that he will try to remember them himself. If he plans to write them, it does not matter if you chose the words or someone else chose them. In the end, the difference will be a few seconds to recover the wallet, but it is a great damage to entropy (from 256/128 to less than 16 bit.)

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 28, 2023, 02:39:36 AM

If you are absolutely dead set on memorizing your seed phrase, at least make a paper back up as well.

If you were a person like me, you would need something to remind you of where you put the paper, as I forget a lot, so I do not advise anyone to rely on his memory.

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on August 27, 2023, 08:56:03 AM

The compromise solution is to generate seed words and try to link them to something you remember, such as trying to make them into the lyrics of a song or poem

It does not matter what method or process you use to memorize your seed phrase - you remain at the exact same risk of forgetting it due to accident, trauma, injury, and so on, as I've explained earlier in this thread.

If you are absolutely dead set on memorizing your seed phrase, at least make a paper back up as well.

nelson4lov

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on August 27, 2023, 08:56:03 AM

Another reason is why you want to choose the seed words yourself? Mostly the answer will be to remember it, but you will fail to remember 12 words. You can memorize up to 6 words. Some may reach 10 words, but 12 words are a lot, and failure in one word or its arrangement will be very costly.

This is if we ignore the possibility of memory loss due to accidents or trauma.

The compromise solution is to generate seed words and try to link them to something you remember, such as trying to make them into the lyrics of a song or poem, or encoding them and hiding them in several places instead of choosing the seeds yourself.

easy way write it down.

What would happen in cases where the subject matter loses their ability to remember those words despite it being linked to something they can remember (eg losing their memories altogether? That's a very poor source of entropy and anybody who knows them very well can easily guess the word combination and gets wallet access.

Possible yes, but highly discouraged because entropy has to be generated securely.

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Quote from: Faisal2202 on August 03, 2023, 07:56:59 AM

Yes you could choose your own seed phrase. When you will make a new wallet on Electrum you will be asked to add manual words in your seed phrase.

What OP meant is that if it js possible to create a new wallet where OP can choose what words wi be used to create a seed phrase. In Electrum, it isn't about creating wallet with personalized seed phrase or customized seed phrase but adding more words to your seed phrase which it is indeed optional snd it's up to you if you want to add or not. That's why it is not the same as what o_e_l_e_o said.

Yamane_Keto

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Quote from: Agbamoni on August 27, 2023, 08:34:18 AM

However, you should be cautious because people aren't very good at being random, and there are automated programs called bots that have managed to figure out many keys that people have come up with using their brains. This is because humans aren't good at being truly random.

Another reason is why you want to choose the seed words yourself? Mostly the answer will be to remember it, but you will fail to remember 12 words. You can memorize up to 6 words. Some may reach 10 words, but 12 words are a lot, and failure in one word or its arrangement will be very costly.

This is if we ignore the possibility of memory loss due to accidents or trauma.

The compromise solution is to generate seed words and try to link them to something you remember, such as trying to make them into the lyrics of a song or poem, or encoding them and hiding them in several places instead of choosing the seeds yourself.

easy way write it down.

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Quote from: Agbamoni on August 27, 2023, 08:34:18 AM

You have the option to create a key, but you have to use words from a specific list of allowed words to make a valid key.

You don't. You can create a seed phrase out of any words you like. It is simply that the BIP39 standard which most wallets use has a fixed word list, but this is by no means the only way to create a seed phrase.

Quote from: Agbamoni on August 27, 2023, 08:34:18 AM

Each blockchain has its own set of words that are allowed.

I don't care at all for shitcoins, but BIP39 is used across the vast majority of coins and therefore they will all share the same wordlist.

Quote from: Agbamoni on August 27, 2023, 08:34:18 AM

If your good at crossword puzzles like scrabble, then you might come up with a word that with it you can get 23 words out of it

This is just manually creating a seed phrase but with extra steps. It is a poor source of entropy.

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Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 07:24:53 AM

I know it's a really stupid question but I was just curious.

Don't worry, you can ask questions, as long as the intention is to learn.

Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 07:24:53 AM

Is it really possible to choose your own seed words.

You have the option to create a key, but you have to use words from a specific list of allowed words to make a valid key. Each blockchain has its own set of words that are allowed.

However, you should be cautious because people aren't very good at being random, and there are automated programs called bots that have managed to figure out many keys that people have come up with using their brains. This is because humans aren't good at being truly random.

Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 07:24:53 AM

Just imagine in term of randomness or uniqueness what if we used multiply language or names. Because there are more than 7,100 language spoken in this world and there are 195 country. So if we think of it, in every culture, area, city, country, people use different language different names and the names doesn't have to be meaningful like my username. How much randomness would it create! Not everyone can speak multiply language nor everyone have a good memory in remembering words. People tend to forget. But when I think of it it fills me with nothing but curiosity. That's all I wanted to say.

If your good at crossword puzzles like scrabble, then you might come up with a word that with it you can get 23 words out of it

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Quote from: un_rank on August 04, 2023, 04:16:32 AM

Why did you opt for an online backup if you are aware of the risks of hacks?

Because it was my first wallet. First time for everything. But don't worry it doesn't contain any significant assets.

Quote from: joniboini on August 04, 2023, 06:57:31 AM

Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 04, 2023, 03:33:55 AM

I prefer offline backup if you are sure you can store them securely.

I suggest reading some of these topics to try to improve your security. Might as well educate your family if you plan to share one or two things about Bitcoin with them. CMIIW.

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/list-bitcoin-seed-backup-tools-5263482

Read it sir, thank you for the suggestion. It was very helpful. In future by any chance if I need anything like these to store my wallet i will surely buy it.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 12, 2022, 10:18:40 AM

There is a very good reason every good wallet tells you to write down your seed phrase. Relying on your memory is a recipe for disaster.

I wasn't expecting this kind of info or links. But now that I know, I am totally shocked to see the numbers.

P.S: I already wrote down my seed words, no worries Grin

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Quote from: DVlog on August 04, 2023, 01:55:51 AM

-snip-

I've spoken before about why commiting seed phrases to memory is a terrible idea, so I'll quote myself below:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 12, 2022, 10:18:40 AM

Each year:

69 million traumatic brain injuries: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29701556/
12 million strokes: https://www.world-stroke.org/assets/downloads/WSO_Global_Stroke_Fact_Sheet.pdf
10 million new diagnoses of dementia: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/dementia
5 million new diagnoses of epilepsy: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/epilepsy
2.5 million cases of meningitis: https://www.path.org/articles/toward-world-without-meningitis/
2 million new brain tumors: https://academic.oup.com/noa/article/3/1/vdaa178/6043315
1.5 million cases of encephalitis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163445322002110

That's each year, and that's only major conditions which directly affect the brain. Add in things like cardiac arrest, heart disease, sepsis, shock, diabetes, vascular injury, hemorrhage, poisoning, smoke inhalation, etc., all of which can cause secondary brain injury, and there are literally hundreds of millions of people every single year who suffer some form of insult to their brain which can lead to memory problems.

Do you want to trust all your coins to those odds? I know I don't.

There is a very good reason every good wallet tells you to write down your seed phrase. Relying on your memory is a recipe for disaster.

joniboini

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Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 04, 2023, 03:33:55 AM

I prefer offline backup if you are sure you can store them securely.

You should make sure you store them securely though, granted the level of security might differ depending on what you have and know, but it should be your goal, not a choice. Afaik, most experienced members will always recommend you to store your backup offline, with tips and tricks being shared on various boards such as this one[1]. I suggest reading some of these topics to try to improve your security. Might as well educate your family if you plan to share one or two things about Bitcoin with them. CMIIW.

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/list-bitcoin-seed-backup-tools-5263482

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Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 04, 2023, 03:33:55 AM

Also have an online backup but I don't think that won't be reliable cause anything online could be hacked or compromised. I prefer offline backup if you are sure you can store them securely.

As you said an online back up exposes you to risks and threats and defeats the purpose of having it stored offline. Why did you opt for an online backup if you are aware of the risks of hacks?

I will suggest you sweep to a new address and back that up solely offline if you want to be really thorough or just delete the online back up and hope it was not already compromised.

- Jay -

DYING_S0UL

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Quote from: un_rank on August 04, 2023, 02:46:54 AM

Quote from: DVlog on August 04, 2023, 01:55:51 AM

If you do not wish to write your passphrase in anywhere in fear of compromising it try to make a rhyme or poem with it only for you.

Quote from: DVlog on August 04, 2023, 01:55:51 AM

Mnemonic phrase usually some random word so give them a meaning so that you won't forget and do not tell it to anyone. Even if you write it down in some place no one will understand what is it if you do not tell them.

Trying to commit it to memory why having a paper back up is not a bad idea and does not compromise your security in any way, it could be another means of recovering if you lose your back up. This is also why you should have more than 1 back up in different locations.

- Jay -

Quote from: pooya87 on August 03, 2023, 11:53:47 PM

FWIW mnemonic algorithm, despite what the name may sound like, is not created for memorization. Its main purpose is for you to be able to write it down (with pen and paper) with a very low chance of mistakes.

I actually did that. I wrote down my seed words and hid it in two different location only I know. Also have an online backup but I don't think that won't be reliable cause anything online could be hacked or compromised. I prefer offline backup if you are sure you can store them securely.

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Quote from: DVlog on August 04, 2023, 01:55:51 AM

If you do not wish to write your passphrase in anywhere in fear of compromising it try to make a rhyme or poem with it only for you.

It is not an option between writing it down and memorizing it, seed phrases are meant to be written down. That is also one of the reasons that 12 words phrases are used, they are easier to write down while providing sufficient entropy.

Think of how many song lyrics you could comfortably sing word-for-word some years back, try them now and check the accuracy level. Even if you could sing the song perfectly after several years, that is only for how long your delicate brain is working efficiently, if any accident or trauma affects the brain you probably will lose access to that memory. Aging of the brain also naturally deteriorates its performance.

Quote from: DVlog on August 04, 2023, 01:55:51 AM

Mnemonic phrase usually some random word so give them a meaning so that you won't forget and do not tell it to anyone. Even if you write it down in some place no one will understand what is it if you do not tell them.

Trying to commit it to memory why having a paper back up is not a bad idea and does not compromise your security in any way, it could be another means of recovering if you lose your back up. This is also why you should have more than 1 back up in different locations.

- Jay -

DVlog

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Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 07:24:53 AM

cause even if we forget things like we usually do we don't forget the people we love.

When we were kid we used a methods to remember several character name from our history lessons. We use those name and make a rhyme that we memories. This methods works because it's easy to remember a rhyme than some random words. If you do not wish to write your passphrase in anywhere in fear of compromising it try to make a rhyme or poem with it only for you. Mnemonic phrase usually some random word so give them a meaning so that you won't forget and do not tell it to anyone. Even if you write it down in some place no one will understand what is it if you do not tell them.

Though this is a retentive questions but sometimes it brings new ideas so thanks anyway.

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Quote from: pooya87 on August 03, 2023, 11:53:47 PM

Also remember that you should also store the list alongside the mnemonic otherwise you won't be able to recover your keys.

This is not necessary with Electrum. You can import a seed phrase created with an unknown word list and it will still be able to both verify the version bits are correct and generate the corresponding wallet. This is because the checksum is not dependent on decoding the final word to its relevant bits as it is with BIP39 (where you do need to know the word list), but because Electrum seed phrases are simply normalized and hashed to obtain the version bits.

For example, here's a seed phrase I just created using the first few lines from the whitepaper as wordlist:

Code:

financial directly but be would benefits sent without of would directly version solution prevent main trusted going required trusted purely spending required electronic main party

But even without telling your copy of Electrum the wordlist I used, you can still import that seed phrase and reach the following address:

Code:

bc1qy6fl5725jum967lca3k8qpu6z9vacx367fypv3

pooya87

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You could technically create a customized word list containing an arbitrary number of words and then use the Electrum mnemonic algorithm to create your seed phrase using that particular word list. It should have the same security level since Electrum still creates a random entropy and encodes that using the custom word list.
Keep in mind that if your list is small (like 10 words), your mnemonic length would be massive since each word encodes a much smaller number of bits.
~~Also remember that you should also store the list alongside the mnemonic otherwise you won't be able to recover your keys.~~

Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 07:24:53 AM

cause even if we forget things like we usually do we don't forget the people we love.

FWIW mnemonic algorithm, despite what the name may sound like, is not created for memorization. Its main purpose is for you to be able to write it down (with pen and paper) with a very low chance of mistakes.

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Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 08:20:43 AM

They say you can get answer of any questions here if were dedicated to learn from this platform.

Sure, yeah. It's just unbelievable how often I see this topic being brought again. It's as if we haven't made this crystal clear that you are incapable of producing a seed phrase yourself properly.

Quote from: Faisal2202 on August 03, 2023, 01:25:02 PM

For convinience here is my version of the difference. Seed phrase is used to recover wallet and consists of words totally random not picked by the owner (like the one making the account). While passphrase is the one where we add our own words like the oeleo said

For clarity: you need both the seed phrase and the passphrase to recover your wallet. You can think of the passphrase as extra words in the seed phrase. In fact, that's exactly how it's interpreted by both the Electrum standard and the BIP39.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 03, 2023, 08:14:33 AM

This is not the same.

Electrum will always generate a random seed phrase. You cannot pick your own seed phrase (although with Electrum you can use a different word list, although again, I would not recommend this). What you are describing is picking a passphrase, also known as a seed extension. The combination of your completely random seed phrase and your self picked passphrase will generate a wallet. Although you should strive to use long and random passphrases, using your family members' names here is less critical since you still have the security of your seed phrase to fall back on. So using family members' names for a passphrase is unlikely to lead to your coins being stolen in isolation, but pretty much defeats the point of using a passphrase if you are going to use one which is so weak and easily guessable.

Thanks a lot for the correction dear tbh i am still learning and didn't come to think of it as passphrase and use the word seedphrase. I will keep in mind the difference next time and i hope the OP might also learn that there is a difference between passphrase and seed phrase.

For convinience here is my version of the difference. Seed phrase is used to recover wallet and consists of words totally random not picked by the owner (like the one making the account). While passphrase is the one where we add our own words like the oeleo said

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Quote from: DYING_S0UL on August 03, 2023, 07:24:53 AM

Just imagine in term of randomness or uniqueness what if we used multiply language or names. Because there are more than 7,100 language spoken in this world and there are 195 country. So if we think of it, in every culture, area, city, country, people use different language different names and the names doesn't have to be meaningful like my username. How much randomness would it create! Not everyone can speak multiply language nor everyone have a good memory in remembering words. People tend to forget. But when I think of it it fills me with nothing but curiosity. That's all I wanted to say.

Of course, due to the widespread of the technology people have submitted different wordlists in different languages which is yet to be reviewed as they're different famous language already in the wordlists. But for what you want, a repo, in its infancy, is available for it where you can translate some preliminary word lists (not up to 2048 yet) to a local language. It has its rules, like removal of diacritics words, such that any word with any dots or squiggles attached to it should be written without them (every word in English character set). Also the words should be levenshtein conscious. Atleast levenshtein distance should be more than 1; words with Levenshtein distance of 3 is perfect. On the contrary, Being aware of the calculation and formulas used in generating seeds; mnemonics, checksums, length of the mnemonic sentece in words. You should know that it's secure enough over choosing words from your brain.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 03, 2023, 07:57:55 AM

I don't know why this topic is brought up every once in a while. It's wrong, and you're probably going to get robbed.

You don't have to worry sir. I won't be using self made seed words. It was purely out of curiosity. I just didn't knew that and so I wanted to know that's all. They say you can get answer of any questions here if you were dedicated to learn from this platform. (Sorry I didn't knew it was a repeated topic). Thank you for clearing my mistakes.

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