Can we have a "Digital Commodity" since BTC is a Digital Currency?

blablahblah

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Quote from: paraipan on May 01, 2012, 06:51:03 AM

Quote from: Fuzzy on May 01, 2012, 06:46:24 AM

Quote from: barbarousrelic on April 30, 2012, 09:45:31 PM

So obviously the solution is to design a currency denominated in intangible religious benefits.

Like Reddit Karma?

Yeah... bitkarma tokens, virtual holy protection against bad karma

But I already get intangible spiritual benefits from my bitcoins. Don't you?

Satoshi is my god, and bitcointalk.org is my place of worship.

Although I suppose for it to be recognised as a "religion" we might need a pope and/or devil figure. Any suggestions? Krugman perhaps? Cheesy

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: rjk on April 30, 2012, 09:50:29 PM

Quote from: barbarousrelic on April 30, 2012, 09:45:31 PM

The IRS does not tax "intangible religious benefits." Money donated to a church for which you are not compensated for in anything other than 'intangible religious benefits' is tax deductible.

So obviously the solution is to design a currency denominated in intangible religious benefits.

Prepaid sin cards, reloadable at the nearest place of worship?

I kowtow (WOTD) to the image below.

hazek

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I would love to see a simple majority of U.S. Citizens for one year take their maximum exemptions on the W-4 and the next April they don’t send money but instead send a form letter simply stating, “Hey remember that No War For Oil thing – I meant it!”

+1 I'd be willing to give up a lot to see this.

paraipan

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Quote from: Fuzzy on May 01, 2012, 06:46:24 AM

Quote from: barbarousrelic on April 30, 2012, 09:45:31 PM

So obviously the solution is to design a currency denominated in intangible religious benefits.

Like Reddit Karma?

Yeah... bitkarma tokens, virtual holy protection against bad karma

Fuzzy

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Quote from: barbarousrelic on April 30, 2012, 09:45:31 PM

So obviously the solution is to design a currency denominated in intangible religious benefits.

Like Reddit Karma?

rjk

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1ngldh

Quote from: ?? on ??

I would love to see a simple majority of U.S. Citizens for one year take their maximum exemptions on the W-4 and the next April they don’t send money but instead send a form letter simply stating, “Hey remember that No War For Oil thing – I meant it!”

That would give a whole new meaning to prison overcrowding. Trust the government to try it anyway.

rjk

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1ngldh

Quote from: barbarousrelic on April 30, 2012, 09:45:31 PM

The IRS does not tax "intangible religious benefits." Money donated to a church for which you are not compensated for in anything other than 'intangible religious benefits' is tax deductible.

So obviously the solution is to design a currency denominated in intangible religious benefits.

Prepaid sin cards, reloadable at the nearest place of worship?

barbarousrelic

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The IRS does not tax "intangible religious benefits." Money donated to a church for which you are not compensated for in anything other than 'intangible religious benefits' is tax deductible.

So obviously the solution is to design a currency denominated in intangible religious benefits.

Fuzzy

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Quote from: BladeMcCool on April 30, 2012, 08:08:21 PM

If you work for McCool International, you are not allowed to give us your SSN or your real name. We operate on pseudonymns only. So, there will be no taxation. We have similar arrangements with our suppliers, and have a vertically integrated supply chain that is all operating pseudonymously without any reporting. Soon our inexepensive manufactured products will be available at black markets near you, and since we avoid all the bullshit middlemen and taxation we can certainly undercut the "lol abiding" (as we like to call them) competition.

The most pure form of capitalism.

Down!
Cheesy

With ALL the things!

faidsaid

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Quote from: rjk on April 30, 2012, 08:16:17 PM

Quote from: BladeMcCool on April 30, 2012, 08:08:21 PM

If you work for McCool International, you are not allowed to give us your SSN or your real name. We operate on pseudonymns only. So, there will be no taxation. We have similar arrangements with our suppliers, and have a vertically integrated supply chain that is all operating pseudonymously without any reporting. Soon our inexepensive manufactured products will be available at black markets near you, and since we avoid all the bullshit middlemen and taxation we can certainly undercut the "lol abiding" (as we like to call them) competition.

Buzzwords detected, reading and comprehension threads forcibly aborted.

+1

rjk

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1ngldh

Quote from: BladeMcCool on April 30, 2012, 08:08:21 PM

If you work for McCool International, you are not allowed to give us your SSN or your real name. We operate on pseudonymns only. So, there will be no taxation. We have similar arrangements with our suppliers, and have a vertically integrated supply chain that is all operating pseudonymously without any reporting. Soon our inexepensive manufactured products will be available at black markets near you, and since we avoid all the bullshit middlemen and taxation we can certainly undercut the "lol abiding" (as we like to call them) competition.

Buzzwords detected, reading and comprehension threads forcibly aborted.

BladeMcCool

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If you work for McCool International, you are not allowed to give us your SSN or your real name. We operate on pseudonymns only. So, there will be no taxation. We have similar arrangements with our suppliers, and have a vertically integrated supply chain that is all operating pseudonymously without any reporting. Soon our inexepensive manufactured products will be available at black markets near you, and since we avoid all the bullshit middlemen and taxation we can certainly undercut the "lol abiding" (as we like to call them) competition.

hazek

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on April 30, 2012, 05:53:49 PM

Quote from: paraipan on April 30, 2012, 05:18:39 PM

I still don't get how there is any "tax liability" in there but will follow on this thread and try to learn from others.

Because the govt taxes TRANSACTIONS. Transactions are "usually" in the form of fiat but making them not in fiat doesn't erase the tax liability.

Say Joe The Plumber is flexible and you need pipe repairs worth $300 done.

Joe The Plumber could accept $300 USD (fiat)
Joe The Plumber could accept 9 years of VPS hosting worth $300.
Joe The Pulmber could accept Gold coin worth $300.
Joe The Plumber could accept 60 BTC (worth $300).
Joe The plumber could accept 100 gift cert good for one Burger King Whopper each (worth $300).

In each instance a $300 transaction has taken place. Joe has gained $300 in taxable income and if the state charges a sale tax then sales tax is due on the $300 each.

Bitcoin doesn't make that magically go away and making it a digital commodity has absolutely no relevance (according to the IRS and state agencies).

If you claim that the value was based on a negoitiated rate in btc and not the US Dollar then how would the government know how to value the transaction? Do they have a btc publication schedule on some website that I can download? The current market rate at MtGox at the point of coin transfer? Any exchange you see fit to use? A value at a specific point in time like when you are talking to the plumber on the phone? When he arrives at the house to start work? Two days later when the work is complete? If you have an open account with him then perhaps a week later when he mails you the invoice? Do you give the government a copy of the block chain on disk with the key as proof?

I think this subject has yet to be truly explored, tried or tested and cannot be answered with any certainty.

I think the answers to your questions are the same as the answer to the question: How does government tax barter?

I don't think it's hard let alone impossible to tax transactions in bitcoins, what could be hard though is knowing about transactions that aren't voluntarily declared much like undeclared paper cash or barter transactions. We're still lucky enough to not have a chip implanted in everyone of us or a probe hovering over our heads recording every step we make so we still have some freedom to hide from uncle Sam.

The argument that Bitcoin jeopardizes government's power to tax is based on being able to hide your activity and wealth rather than it being difficult for them to find a way to tax your Bitcoin transactions or wealth.

Blazr

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Quote from: paraipan on April 30, 2012, 07:30:53 PM

people already pay a taxes on their income and assets, and now you tell that we pay a tax when exchanging those same assets between us ?

Depending on your country/state you can be liable for sales tax on transactions (also called VAT, GST).

If the good you purchase then goes up in value, you can be taxed on that as well in some places. All of this is usually on top of income taxes. Yep, taxes suck so bad.

paraipan

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on April 30, 2012, 05:53:49 PM

Quote from: paraipan on April 30, 2012, 05:18:39 PM

I still don't get how there is any "tax liability" in there but will follow on this thread and try to learn from others.

Because the govt taxes TRANSACTIONS. Transactions are "usually" in the form of fiat but making them not in fiat doesn't erase the tax liability.

Say Joe The Plumber is flexible and you need pipe repairs worth $300 done.

Joe The Plumber could accept $300 USD (fiat)
Joe The Plumber could accept 9 years of VPS hosting worth $300.
Joe The Pulmber could accept Gold coin worth $300.
Joe The Plumber could accept 60 BTC (worth $300).
Joe The plumber could accept 100 gift cert good for one Burger King Whopper each (worth $300).

In each instance a $300 transaction has taken place. Joe has gained $300 in taxable income and if the state charges a sale tax then sales tax is due on the $300 each.

Bitcoin doesn't make that magically go away and making it a digital commodity has absolutely no relevance (according to the IRS and state agencies).

Wait moment...

Quote

Because the govt taxes TRANSACTIONS...

people already pay a taxes on their income and assets, and now you tell that we pay a tax when exchanging those same assets between us ?

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: paraipan on April 30, 2012, 05:18:39 PM

I still don't get how there is any "tax liability" in there but will follow on this thread and try to learn from others.

Because the govt taxes TRANSACTIONS. Transactions are "usually" in the form of fiat but making them not in fiat doesn't erase the tax liability.

Say Joe The Plumber is flexible and you need pipe repairs worth $300 done.

Joe The Plumber could accept $300 USD (fiat)
Joe The Plumber could accept 9 years of VPS hosting worth $300.
Joe The Pulmber could accept Gold coin worth $300.
Joe The Plumber could accept 60 BTC (worth $300).
Joe The plumber could accept 100 gift cert good for one Burger King Whopper each (worth $300).

In each instance a $300 transaction has taken place. Joe has gained $300 in taxable income and if the state charges a sale tax then sales tax is due on the $300 each.

Bitcoin doesn't make that magically go away and making it a digital commodity has absolutely no relevance (according to the IRS and state agencies).

BusmasterDMA

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Quote from: paraipan on April 30, 2012, 05:18:39 PM

I still don't get how there is any "tax liability" in there but will follow on this thread and try to learn from others.

A couple more links:
http://money.howstuffworks.com/bartering4.htm
http://biztaxlaw.about.com/od/businesstaxes/tp/barterinfo.htm

(I was only referring to the USA; I have no idea about elsewhere. Also IANAL.)

Red Emerald

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Quote from: paraipan on April 30, 2012, 05:18:39 PM

Quote from: BusmasterDMA on April 30, 2012, 04:39:53 PM

Barter transactions are already subject to federal income tax (and probably sales tax in most jurisdictions):
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html
http://dor.wa.gov/Content/GetAFormOrPublication/PublicationBySubject/TaxTopics/Bartering.aspx

Interesting, quoting from second link...

Quote

Bartering transactions are taxable
Imagine coming to work at your accounting business on a Monday morning and finding that the plumbing in the employee washroom has been leaking over the weekend. While insurance will cover the water damage, it will not pay for the new plumbing work. Fortunately, one of your clients is a plumber. So, you call Jake the Plumber and tell him your problem. The two of you agree that the work will cost an amount equivalent to six months’ accounting work. Jake does the work, you do his accounting work, and no money changes hands.

Is there any tax liability associated with this barter transaction? Yes!

I still don't get how there is any "tax liability" in there but will follow on this thread and try to learn from others.

Seems to me there is always "tax liability" Sad

paraipan

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Quote from: BusmasterDMA on April 30, 2012, 04:39:53 PM

Barter transactions are already subject to federal income tax (and probably sales tax in most jurisdictions):
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html
http://dor.wa.gov/Content/GetAFormOrPublication/PublicationBySubject/TaxTopics/Bartering.aspx

Interesting, quoting from second link...

Quote

Bartering transactions are taxable
Imagine coming to work at your accounting business on a Monday morning and finding that the plumbing in the employee washroom has been leaking over the weekend. While insurance will cover the water damage, it will not pay for the new plumbing work. Fortunately, one of your clients is a plumber. So, you call Jake the Plumber and tell him your problem. The two of you agree that the work will cost an amount equivalent to six months’ accounting work. Jake does the work, you do his accounting work, and no money changes hands.

Is there any tax liability associated with this barter transaction? Yes!

I still don't get how there is any "tax liability" in there but will follow on this thread and try to learn from others.

unclescrooge

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Quote from: hazek on April 30, 2012, 04:28:43 PM

Please, let's not be so naive as to think that a thing potentially endangering the government's monopoly on money and their ability to tax would/could not get attacked by them becuase of what words we use to describe bitcoins.. Roll Eyes

+1

Did you see what governments have tried (and failed) to do against p2p used to exchange songs and movies, when that was just threatening majors cartels?

So now what do you think will happen with a P2P technology the threaten THEIR power? Do be naive, to bring bitcoin and its benefits to society, we will have to fight against governments.

We should not care about what authorities think about bitcoins. Only what people think. Or simply give up now.

Topic: Can we have a "Digital Commodity" since BTC is a Digital Currency? (Read 2428 times)