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Topic: Can we see coin mixing services as money laundering services ? - page 2. (Read 2695 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1895
Usually we call money laundering to the act of turning illegal gains into legal gains, by simply mixing your coins you don't do that, you still have some coins you cannot show its origin.


Yes, the usual definition of money laundering is the act of turning "dirty money" (from illegal operations) into clean money.

However, as a user of mixing services, I now note that the term "money laundering" is being changed by our government from the above to:

""Money Laundering" is having money the government does not know about."

A big ugly difference.  Privacy <> Illegality
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 526
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.

If coin mixing services are money laundering services for sure the FBI are going to ask the coin mixing companies to close immediately. How about the banks? They are being used for money laundering too but no proper actions. It is really going to depend on how we are going to coin mixing services legally and not going to get attached with illegal ones.

That wouldn't be a very wise decision overall. Closing some mixing services that they have managed to successfully trace down would only make the remaining ones which they failed to close even more vicious and dangerous as well as suspicious and paranoid. It would work like a natural selection of sorts where only the most secure and elusive mixers survive. The rational strategy would then obviously dictate not closing down but rather taking mixers under the control of intelligence and security services such as FBI, or even setting up a few supervised mixers themselves.
legendary
Activity: 2996
Merit: 1054
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.

Could you name a single reason why you would use a mixing service unless you were going to hide something? You might be looking for privacy, this is understandable, but doesn't Bitcoin provide enough privacy by itself? In my opinion, mixing services have everything to do with hiding the origins of your money (money laundering included).
yes mate thats right because if you are not hiding anything the service of bitcoin system already hide you so it is anonymously done so if you are just using it in a normal ways theres no need to use mixing services and for me thats the reason why most of those suspicious transaction has been done using mixing services including money laundering for sure.
legendary
Activity: 2786
Merit: 1031
Usually we call money laundering to the act of turning illegal gains into legal gains, by simply mixing your coins you don't do that, you still have some coins you cannot show its origin.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
The normal Bitcoin transaction is easily traced, if you care a little bit.  For you and me it can be hard to get to the final person who spent the coin, but the government can easily do this.  If your exchange address where you receive payments from a gambling site ever sent coins to a software wallet and that software wallet at another point funded an exchange where you used an email that is linked to you, then within seconds software can associate your name, your Facebook profile and everything else with that gambling site. 
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 526
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.

Could you name a single reason why you would use a mixing service unless you were going to hide something? You might be looking for privacy, this is understandable, but doesn't Bitcoin provide enough privacy by itself? In my opinion, mixing services have everything to do with hiding the origins of your money (money laundering included).
legendary
Activity: 2758
Merit: 1228
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.

If coin mixing services are money laundering services for sure the FBI are going to ask the coin mixing companies to close immediately. How about the banks? They are being used for money laundering too but no proper actions. It is really going to depend on how we are going to coin mixing services legally and not going to get attached with illegal ones.


Banks? I think they are not oblig to tell who's fraud and who is not it is the part of their costumer protection but if some certain law will gonna sue i think they can easily open the bank  accounts of the fraud but they cannot seize the full operation of the bank since they are not affiliates, but in coin mixing service well it has a high chance for that but it is really very hard since i think mixing site owners i think do some counter measure for that so they can sustain their business to still run, and it has nothing to do with those fraud since they cannot stop them to use their service.
legendary
Activity: 3346
Merit: 1191
People are right, everything can be used as money laundering service. It`s not even a bad thing, it`s making dirty money legal. It`s not just services, every shop or store can be used for laundering money. It`s not hard, you just need to have good accountant and he will tell you exactly what to do.
I never used some coin mixing service, and I don`t know anyone who used it. I don`t know what can we do with them and what is the reason of their existence.

"They will hide the transaction txid so they will not publish it to public." Why would I hide my txid transaction?
legendary
Activity: 3136
Merit: 1172
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
The point is......whether it is the government, your bank or whomever, you are being tracked, you are being profiled and that may be fine, but if it is not fine to you, then there is Crypto. 
hero member
Activity: 2646
Merit: 584
Payment Gateway Allows Recurring Payments
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.

If coin mixing services are money laundering services for sure the FBI are going to ask the coin mixing companies to close immediately. How about the banks? They are being used for money laundering too but no proper actions. It is really going to depend on how we are going to coin mixing services legally and not going to get attached with illegal ones.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1179
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.
You're spot on here. People however have a small field of sight where they either don't realize, or don't know that there are more ways to mix "dirty" coins than just using a dedicated Bitcoin mixer.

But maybe the point of OP was that dedicated Bitcoin mixers don't require any verification in order to use them, and also don't save any logs about the mixed transaction.
hero member
Activity: 1148
Merit: 528
Why just mixing services, any business could be misused for money laundering. I do not understand what is point on targeting a mixing services for money laundry as mixing services is almost equivalent to any other bitcoin related services like gambling / exchange /online wallet /lending.

A wrong person may misuse any bitcoin business for his illegal activities, particularly bitcoin mixing service has nothing to do for money laundering.
legendary
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
I personally feel thats what they have been for all this time. No one really uses them for the anonymitiy factor unless he has been doing something illegal.
legendary
Activity: 2870
Merit: 7490
Crypto Swap Exchange
If you don't think bitcoin as money, then coin mixing services isn't money laundering services.
If you think bitcoin as money but you think people mix their coins to protect their privacy(not because illegal activity) OR the owner never think his/her services as money laundering services, then coin mixing service isn't money laundering service.
But, if you think everyone who use this service as money laundering services and the owner also think that way, then coin mixing service isn't different with money laundering services.

In short, it depends on your opinion/views. Personally, i don't think coin mixing services as money laundering services.
hero member
Activity: 1694
Merit: 502
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
Nobody knows nothing about coin mixer sites, looks like they are enigma for almost everyone. Its logical to think how this service is for money laundering. People who are using it are trying to hide where coins come from.
I'm reading that exchange sites also can be used for same things, buy fee can be higher there.
Is there any way or possibility to follow coins after someone used coin mixer? Or there is no way to follow it after that?
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
They have explained at the beginning will hide the transaction txid so they will not publish it to public. You can make money laundering itself without using mixing site.
hero member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 536
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
I dunno what to thinks about this services.. do they make money laundering easier Huh

maybe they can do this, because no one really know what exactly they do and they will not give the right answers. but people which invole with illegal money, then i think that people can use this to money laundry their money so it will not detected by anyone. but be careful before you do this, any risk that will happen is for yourself.
For eliminating your track is will become more easily for using mixing service and I can't think if that is be fallen into the officials and what happened for next time?be a soft field for them.
hero member
Activity: 2912
Merit: 556
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I dunno what to thinks about this services.. do they make money laundering easier Huh

maybe they can do this, because no one really know what exactly they do and they will not give the right answers. but people which invole with illegal money, then i think that people can use this to money laundry their money so it will not detected by anyone. but be careful before you do this, any risk that will happen is for yourself.
full member
Activity: 172
Merit: 100
sure, it can and is used for laundering, but that is not the only purpose.  also, the more people that join into bitcoin, the more that use these services for more ethical reasons. 

the actual truth is that any one that has a real need to launder funds and knows what they are doing will be doing it themselves and not using services like these.  you are traced and tracked in more ways than just the address and these services likely get more people caught than they protect.  the big case of laundering that got the silk road interrupted was cloaked by some mixing and tumbling, but it was not enough.  the most common secondary tracking method is endpoint amount tracing.  if the FBI knows that i received $10,000 for an illegal activity and that i was likely paid within this calendar week, then they can find the start point, you can even do that.  simply search for TX's of that amount in the date range.  the list will be pretty small and you can narrow it down with a little research

so, they see the original TX and then i throw it into tumbling and mixing.  the FBI software takes 16.38 BTC and prints a pyramid shaped cone, the overall fee for a TX at level 1 for 16.38 is 0.01638.  TX fees are percentage based, so even if that is split between 10 TX's the amount is the same.  the software iterated outward for ten or so TX's, printing the results at each level and you have a simple chart that tells you how much is left from the base number after 1, 2, 3.....numbers of TX's. 

so, you want your funds back in one or two accounts after laundering.  let's say you used a tumbling service, it took in 16.38, went through several accounts and spit out 16 to your other "clean" account.  the fbi software will show that after say "5" TX's the original 16.38 is now 16.2, the software reads like this.

Level 5 TX's      16.2 left after TX fees, 16 after TX fees+common tumbling fee

and there you are,  one of maybe 50 addresses that received 16 BTC one week after the alleged paid crime.  They are watching for that amount and ten other amounts based on the software, plus amounts that are one half and one third those amounts.  it is all on one piece of paper, i have seen it.  you end up as one of maybe 1000 TX's meeting those criteria, but then other software purges a bunch based on other factors, common addresses and such.  that is how Interpol closed that money laundering case and put the silk road in the lime light. 

it is like triangulating position, the first laundered TX and you might be part of ten suspects, once you do it a second time, it is all over.  there are much better ways to attain absolute anonymity and tumbling helps, but it is just one tool in a larger system

Learnt much knowledge from your post, it seems like mixing service is not very safe, how about monero or dash for them? More anonymous than mixer?
hero member
Activity: 1162
Merit: 500
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Well that is hard to say maybe you can ask yourself first the question is Bitcoin actually money. Also not only coin mixing services but also exchanges could be used. But atleast you can say that a lot of people who use a mixer have to hide something.

Is bitcoin money ?

word 'money' is a 'unit of perpetual value' therefore anything of value is considered money. Bitcoin is worth something because people say it is. Gold and silver is worth something because people say it is. it has value because it is rare. Before this we traded in salt the word salary means salt because salt use to be very rare so they traded in it becuse they needed it.

Today we have peices of paper which origonally was tradable for gold but these days there is not enough gold to back up the paper money. But you do not need the gold because people will accept the paper money for goods and services just like they did salt back in the day. Bitcoin is merely a digital version.

Also think about banking and credit cards. Your money in your bank account are just digital numbers that is all they are. Just like bitcoin.
You can withdraw bitcoin to paper money if you like because bitcoin has a value bitcoin is rare because it is mined.

If someone ever tells you that bitcoin has no value then simply tell them that a lump of metal (gold silver) has none either since it's just a chunk of metal.
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