Can what happened to Samourai Wallet happen to Electrum ?

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 05, 2024, 03:29:33 PM

Yes, but after a few people start working on it, then the site that hosts it stops being a central point of failure. If the authorities shut it down, any contributor can set up an instance of the same repository; they have the repo stored in their computer.

I guess that I'm missing something, since imho we have the same now: any contributor can upload his local files and start a new git. ...Just the change history will be gone.

On the other hand... I was thinking on forks of git where we take advantage of blockchains and... surprise, I've found out that there are already such projects, like GitTorrent where "Git objects are retrieved via the BitTorrent protocol and references are stored in Bitcoin transactions"^[1], or Git-Ssb (using Secure Scuttlebutt), or Mango "which combines Ethereum with IPFS or Swarm as a backend for Git"^[1]

Maybe other options are also there and this can be a next step. However, considering rather unlikely the scenario Bitcoin git ever gets threatened by US govt, I expect the devs will just leave it on GitHub for convenience.

^[1] The info and quotes are from this page, which is not mine, I've got it from a search engine: https://medium.com/@alexberegszaszi/mango-git-completely-decentralised-7aef8bcbcfe6

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Quote from: pooya87 on May 04, 2024, 11:56:01 PM

For example some suggest Gitlab but it is pretty much the same as Github, it is centralized and just another US based company (GitLab Inc. with headquarters San Francisco).

Git is the protocol, yes. Github is a centralized platform, yes. Gitlab is like Github, not exactly. Gitlab allows you to use it as cloud service (just like Github), but it also allows you to self-host your own repositories: https://about.gitlab.com/install/.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 05, 2024, 02:38:47 PM

You can indeed install and run your own git server. But that will be just another centralized server to host the source code.

Yes, but after a few people start working on it, then the site that hosts it stops being a central point of failure. If the authorities shut it down, any contributor can set up an instance of the same repository; they have the repo stored in their computer.

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Quote from: NotATether on May 05, 2024, 04:47:08 AM

You can run your own GitLab instance.

You can indeed install and run your own git server. But that will be just another centralized server to host the source code.

But for example a much better use of those idiotic inscriptions would be to store a snapshot/zip of bitcoin source code for every tag/release also on the blockchain.
Then seizing GitHub would set back everything only one step back (actually even less, since the devs prolly have their sources locally).

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Quote from: pooya87 on May 04, 2024, 11:56:01 PM

Git is the protocol and Github is the implementation and the host of that protocol to share code. There is no viable alternative for that host that is not centralized or located in the same jurisdiction. For example some suggest Gitlab but it is pretty much the same as Github, it is centralized and just another US based company (GitLab Inc. with headquarters San Francisco).

You can run your own GitLab instance.

(I'm on mobile so won't link to it here, do a ~~Google~~ DuckDuckGo search for it)

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 04, 2024, 06:30:36 AM

Quote from: logfiles on May 03, 2024, 07:43:35 PM

Do we have any good alternatives to GitHub? A platform that is more like a "decentralized GitHub" that the US Government can not just threaten?

It's called git. Tongue

Git is the protocol and Github is the implementation and the host of that protocol to share code. There is no viable alternative for that host that is not centralized or located in the same jurisdiction. For example some suggest Gitlab but it is pretty much the same as Github, it is centralized and just another US based company (GitLab Inc. with headquarters San Francisco).

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: juhobtc on May 04, 2024, 07:04:34 AM

I was thinking about the sparrow, it has some kind of mixing function, although I have never used it enough, so I am well versed in all its capabilities.

Sparrow was using Samourai's whirlpool. Now that Samourai is shut down, the whirlpool server is not working, and if you try to mix with Sparrow, you'll get an error. They removed it in their latest version: https://github.com/sparrowwallet/sparrow/releases.

Quote from: shield132 on May 04, 2024, 11:45:19 AM

To be fair, I don't know what they have to seize, a code?

People. At first, they were confiscating coins sitting in mixers, and taking control over mixers, scaring people from using mixers. Now they're seizing developers who work on privacy-enhancing software, essentially scaring people from writing code that makes your coins anonymous.

If they don't have a person to seize, they cannot do anything. You can't stop decentralized software. It's everywhere and nowhere at the same time, like Bitcoin.

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Quote from: unknowncustomer on April 26, 2024, 09:15:55 AM

Hello,

I saw that the founders of Samourai Wallets were arrested and that the website to download the wallet was frozen. I guess this has made users of this wallet unsecured.
Do you think this can happen to other software wallets ? Especially Electrum ?

That can't happen to Electrum. Electrum has existed since 2011 and the number of people and companies that use Electrum must be high. If they seize, block or ban Electrum, too many people will be in trouble, and this can result in protests.
To be fair, I don't know what they have to seize, a code? It's perfectly legal to use Bitcoin and to run your own node, not only legal, but it's necessary for the safety of Bitcoin. If they seize Electrum nodes, we can create our own node and connect Electrum to that one and use the Electrum wallet again. I personally think that what happened to Samourai can't happen to Electrum because these two are very different from each other.

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Quote from: juhobtc on May 04, 2024, 07:04:34 AM

Electrum is just a wallet that does not violate any laws that could allow the government to pay attention to it. There are no prohibited functions in it, only the most necessary things to receive and send bitcoins, also can hold there,

You are right about Electrum, however, both mixers and CoinJoin are not illegal, but how many mixers have been taken down, and now Samouria which is also just a wallet that helps bitcoiners enhance privacy has also been taken down. while Wasabi didn't wait for the government to knock on their doors before they shut down their CoinJoin service.

The point here is that the government has opened the pandora's box and they can ban any service and claim that it enhances privacy for bitcoiners, even if the wallet isn't advertised as such. Personally i do not want things to go that far, but i think we are already heading in that direction.

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Quote from: Z-tight on April 29, 2024, 04:50:53 PM

I don't believe things will go that far, and the reason they were shut down is that they enhance privacy for BTC users, and we all know the government is targeting any service that enhances privacy, by charging them for allowing money launderers conceal their tx's. So Electrum and some of the services you mentioned do not fall under this category, because they do not enhance privacy or make it hard to track BTC tx's.

Electrum is just a wallet that does not violate any laws that could allow the government to pay attention to it. There are no prohibited functions in it, only the most necessary things to receive and send bitcoins, also can hold there, but for this it is better to use a hardware wallet.

I was thinking about the sparrow, it has some kind of mixing function, although I have never used it enough, so I am well versed in all its capabilities. I just use an Electrum bundle with a hardware wallet and it seems to me that this is enough to safely store my btc.

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Quote from: Z-tight on May 03, 2024, 05:31:29 PM

They make it look like it is a fight against money laundering, but this is an attack on BTC, against its fungibility and privacy on the network, it's going to be impossible to use BTC privately in sometime to come.

Fortunately, it will always be possible to decentrally exchange BTC for XMR, so you can always opt-out to fully anonymous. But, if you want to stay anonymous without exchanging bitcoin for an altcoin, that's difficult. Your best course would be Joinmarket, which is far from ideal.

Quote from: logfiles on May 03, 2024, 07:43:35 PM

Do we have any good alternatives to GitHub? A platform that is more like a "decentralized GitHub" that the US Government can not just threaten?

It's called git. Tongue

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 26, 2024, 09:18:08 AM

Quote from: unknowncustomer on April 26, 2024, 09:15:55 AM

Do you think this can happen to other software wallets ? Especially Electrum ?

Government can not take down Electrum because Electrum is only a wallet and not centralized in any way than its users using central server to connect to the blockchain.

In short, Electrum is not aiming for money in a centralized way that can make government to take it down. It is not even a mixer. Not having anything that can make it to be the government target.

Additionally, electrum is open source.

Anyone can take the code and run, and keep the development
Samourai was basically a software and a service , electrum is just an open software

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 27, 2024, 11:23:50 PM

Anti-privacy dictatorships such as USA can always arrest anybody including developers like they did the Samourai devs and they can easily shut down any website or take down the open source code on Github.

This is what I was thinking could be the next phase by Anti Privacy US Government. They are going to heap pressure on platforms like GitHub not to allow development of such apps on their platforms, just like the bans of Google play and App Store.

This will massively affect the collaboration and development of the projects we love here.

Do we have any good alternatives to GitHub? A platform that is more like a "decentralized GitHub" that the US Government can not just threaten?

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 03, 2024, 08:24:56 AM

Privacy of Bitcoin is what I was talking about. Not everything. If developers are afraid of writing code that enhances Bitcoin privacy, then we've lost the war.

Sad, but i think you are right. The government is our common enemy, and they have to power to ban, seize and imprison, developers are not going to risk jail time to preserve privacy on the BTC network. They make it look like it is a fight against money laundering, but this is an attack on BTC, against its fungibility and privacy on the network, it's going to be impossible to use BTC privately in sometime to come.

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Quote from: NotATether on May 03, 2024, 08:20:25 AM

It's not over until they completely ban privacy of everything.

Privacy of Bitcoin is what I was talking about. Not everything. If developers are afraid of writing code that enhances Bitcoin privacy, then we've lost the war.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 03, 2024, 06:49:52 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:37:29 AM

So, to sum up, Bitcoin is getting adopted, it's welcomed and ETF approval proves that.

Bitcoin is getting adopted, price increases, let's buy lambos! etc., but we're missing the point. One of the core principles of cryptocurrency, being privacy, is taken away aggressively. We may have won the fight, but we have lost the war, in Bitcoin. That's my view. Sad

Not lost, losing.

It's not over until they completely ban privacy of everything.

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:37:29 AM

If Electrum is dangerous, then so is Bitcoin Core and the whole Bitcoin with its blockchain.

Correct, if. Alone, these pieces of software are unlikely to provide sufficient levels of privacy, but if they do, then expect their developers to be in danger. For example, if a softfork was proposed to implement ring signatures and confidential transactions, which would obscure the amounts transacted and the sender in each transaction, then I'd expect the authorities to address them before tomorrow morning. Same goes for Electrum if they updated their client to support decentralized coinjoin, as another example.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:37:29 AM

So, to sum up, Bitcoin is getting adopted, it's welcomed and ETF approval proves that.

Bitcoin is getting adopted, price increases, let's buy lambos! etc., but we're missing the point. One of the core principles of cryptocurrency, being privacy, is taken away aggressively. We may have won the fight, but we have lost the war, in Bitcoin. That's my view. Sad

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 03, 2024, 06:33:47 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:07:55 AM

I think that's why Electrum is safe, it doesn't advertise itself as privacy enhancer.

I agree it is safer than Samourai. But, safe in general? Depends on how people use it. If effective coinjoin plugins were developed, and everyone who coinjoined in whirlpool migrated to Electrum, then I expect authorities to address them.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:07:55 AM

Just imagine, a shop that sells knives for bread and a shot that sells knives to kill people.

Well, you can't cut a loaf of bread with whirlpool or with coinjoin plugins, so this analogy does not apply. Certain software is simply written to enhance your privacy, there is no other utility.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:07:55 AM

I think that Electrum is safe and we shouldn't worry about it but I can't say the same about Sparrow if they don't remove some of their features.

Whirlpool has been removed in v1.9.0: https://github.com/sparrowwallet/sparrow/releases.

If Electrum is dangerous, then so is Bitcoin Core and the whole Bitcoin with its blockchain. Then they have to simply ban Bitcoin but that's not going to happen because as you see they changed their strategy and instead of fighting it, they became a part of it and recently we even got Bitcoin ETF approval. This means that they aren't going to ban Bitcoin, they accept it's nature and that's all. It's also getting easier to tract transaction these days compared to old days and I think their main plan will be to censor miners, i.e. they'll be forced to ban certain transactions. If governments have this level of control, then even Samourai and mixers will not be a threat for them.
So, to sum up, Bitcoin is getting adopted, it's welcomed and ETF approval proves that. Electrum and similar wallets can't be banned or else they'll have to ban Bitcoin which they definitely aren't going to ban.

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:07:55 AM

I think that's why Electrum is safe, it doesn't advertise itself as privacy enhancer.

I agree it is safer than Samourai. But, safe in general? Depends on how people use it. If effective coinjoin plugins were developed, and everyone who coinjoined in whirlpool migrated to Electrum, then I expect authorities to address them.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:07:55 AM

Just imagine, a shop that sells knives for bread and a shot that sells knives to kill people.

Well, you can't cut a loaf of bread with whirlpool or with coinjoin plugins, so this analogy does not apply. Certain software is simply written to enhance your privacy, there is no other utility.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 03, 2024, 06:07:55 AM

I think that Electrum is safe and we shouldn't worry about it but I can't say the same about Sparrow if they don't remove some of their features.

Whirlpool has been removed in v1.9.0: https://github.com/sparrowwallet/sparrow/releases.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 01, 2024, 06:35:27 AM

It isn't advertised as privacy enhancing, but it does enhance your privacy if you know how to use it. Judging by the stance of the authorities right now in privacy, it will not surprise me if they start threatening Electrum developers.

I think that's why Electrum is safe, it doesn't advertise itself as privacy enhancer. Just imagine, a shop that sells knives for bread and a shot that sells knives to kill people. Which one will be closed and which one will be left open? Of course first one will remain open and the second one will be closed by authorities while it's equally possible to kill a human via knife bought in both places.
Yes, Electrum offers coin control but it's absolutely manual, you can use it save on transaction fees too, so this feature is not automatically labeled as privacy enhancer but definitely yes, it can.

I don't know if it's hard to think like me in this case but for all the reasons I stated above, I think that Electrum is safe and we shouldn't worry about it but I can't say the same about Sparrow if they don't remove some of their features.

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 01, 2024, 06:11:47 AM

Coinjoin is a manual attempt to combine multiple payments into a single transaction to make tracing more difficult.

And coin control enables manual control of which UTXO to spend when making a transaction, avoiding consolidating toxic change, making your tracing more difficult.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 01, 2024, 06:11:47 AM

Electrum doesn't offer you coinjoin service

Electrum doesn't directly offer you coinjoin service, but it allows you to install plugins, one of which allows you to join coins with other people. This means that it indirectly supports coinjoin.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 01, 2024, 06:11:47 AM

I still think that Electrum won't be banned, it doesn't offer you services that will improve your privacy.

It isn't advertised as privacy enhancing, but it does enhance your privacy if you know how to use it. Judging by the stance of the authorities right now in privacy, it will not surprise me if they start threatening Electrum developers.

Quote from: Synchronice on May 01, 2024, 06:11:47 AM

No one should be blocking any service where 5% of users are criminals but they do anyway because people agree with them and there is no massive protest.

Forget about the 5%. Privacy, just as every other human right, should not be invaded for "the sake of the children".

Topic: Can what happened to Samourai Wallet happen to Electrum ? (Read 577 times)