Topic: Capitalism and immorality - page 6. (Read 10678 times)

Power never disappears. It will go to somebody.

You can have situations like the small communities of Switzerland with direct democracy. They have serious power, in social security, in health care, in urban issues, etc. So, it's the neighbors in assembly that will decide if someone should keep their unemployment benefits or not. I wonder if anyone of us would like to see the neighbors decide our life.

I prefer a thousand times an anonymous central power.

I don't think it is an either or proposition. I am not an anarchist but I do think we can have a civilized world without strong centralized governments. Decentralized power would probably make a more peaceful world.   

We had that private system of enforcement (family, friends, and, with much luck, the one eye for an eye business) in the archaic Rome.

The creditor could arrest a debtor in his private jail, until someone came to pay his debts.

Because of all the abuses, slowly, for hundred of years, that systems was abolished and replaced by a decision of an impartial and public judge, responsible in front of the community.

Anarchism wants to return to the archaic system? Just buy an island far away.

Hey Birdy, is this the part you hate so much...

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 Debt-based fiat is evil. The FED is evil. Private Central Banks are evil. They lie constantly by stating the FED is part of the USA government but that is a flat out lie. It's a private, for profit, tax exempt, corporation owned fully by it's member banks, largely by it's largest banks, and controlled by them as well, but not part of any government. The FED is fully autonomous and fully independent, and answers to no one but it's Owners/Shareholders, it's Major Controlling Shareholders -it's largest member banks, that by the way were all were hopelessly bankrupted and fully insolvent and worse since long before 2008. Not to mention all the felony frauds they committed and other serious crimes. But then were bailed out with at least 15 Trillion is secret loans so far, and it's far from other.

 It's a giant series of schemes and scams. Before the FED we didn't have income taxes at all. They were not needed. The FED loans the USA all it's dollars through bonds since it started in 1913, one hundred years ago. And the USA pays forever interest on all those dollars it borrows. But by mathematics alone it's impossible to pay all the debts back as soon as the very first dollar is loaned out there is more debt plus interest than dollars. $1 loaned to the USA doesn't equal $1 + 0.05 cents interest that is owed after a year or whatever. The debts can never be paid back, it isn't possible to ever pay the debt down significantly, there isn't enough dollars by it's very evil design. It's pure evil.

 They suckered all of our ancestors one hundred years ago. It's rapped in a riddle, tied up in a twisted web of deceit, and contorted so much that almost hardly anyone ever knew the facts until rather recently. Now many know. It wont stand much longer. The FED is nearly dead.

 Without the cost of The FED and the Debt-based currency that goes with it (dollars as we know them) we don't have to endure income taxes on ones labor anymore by way of suddenly saving up to or maybe even more more than one trillion dollars every single year. Merely the interest cost this year alone will be close to half a trillion dollars on all the borrowed dollars from The FED. That just keeps getting ever more expensive every year, along with ever higher debts.

=======================================================================================

 Sucks to be a Bankster like you? knowing your end is near eh?
Yea, after thinking about it a moment I figure your an obvious low level banking employee.
Must suck to make so little and do the devils work for such evil.

 Get used to that Birdy. And soon to be Jail bird Birdy?

 As for the 'long wall of words' or whatever. You must be a bird brain birdy?

 Now off to sleep birdy, you still got scams to perpetrate right? Sleep well...

Money is a primitive technology. When money holds greater value than increasing abundance of resources and quality of life, then it becomes toxic to the progress of society. When money is optimized to develop appropriate technologies, then resources will improve the quality of life for society. A society that promotes only technology development and not money (or any other less useful technologies for that matter), will see abundance and an ever progressing quality of life.

Hopefully, Bitcoin will prove itself as more than just money, but also a tool that promotes progress.

 Birdy, it's all there for those that want and desire to know the facts. As for you telling me to go to sleep now? Who the heck do you think you are kid? Or is that just another old fool or shill attempting in vain to keep being a parasite and prey off everyone else? Your words don't ring sincere, at all. And since your a very slow reader as well as a very lame duck I suggest you do a lot of research before hopping in here barking orders that you cannot and wont be able to back up.

 You don't tell me what to do. No one does. I am my own boss.

 But Birdy your welcome to go suck up to your corporate or government masters. Have fun!

 As for "privatization" quote above: Well, hows that privatization/deregulation of electric and water rates working out for any of you?
Not so good hey? Some still drink the sand because their told it's clean, clear, unpolluted water. Go figure, most are easily fooled and suckered.

 And some even tell people to 'go to sleep' if they don't care for what is stated.
In return I say to Birdy: off you go, go be an obedient worker slave and fool.
After all your the one barking and acting like an idiot.


Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.

What if the monopoly is supply-based? E.g. I own most of the watersources in a region. Or I own all the roads surrounding area x, so everybody has to pass through them?
And it doesn't end there. There are a lot of sectors where new companies are at heavy disadvantage. E.g. industries that require a lot of infrastructure like internet providers or energy companies.

Not all of them can be beaten by competition.

@Slingshot: It's too late to read such a wall of text, going to sleep now.But I've skimmed over it though and there are some good arguments in it.

If someone comes up with a good or service that is better than anything else sure. If they try to inflate the price other people will come up with a cheaper version forcing the first group to drop prices or go out of business. Monopolies are problems when states interfere with markets. 

OP, without any taxes (revenues) there can be no society, no properly enforced laws, no rules guiding society, nor a lot of other things we all take for granted such as firemen, police, and a long list of other things such as emergency medical services no matter if one can afford them or not at the time of service.

 We all dislike taxes. But taxes are not inherently 'evil'.

 Debt-based fiat is evil. The FED is evil. Private Central Banks are evil. They lie constantly by stating the FED is part of the USA government but that is a flat out lie. It's a private, for profit, tax exempt, corporation owned fully by it's member banks, largely by it's largest banks, and controlled by them as well, but not part of any government. The FED is fully autonomous and fully independent, and answers to no one but it's Owners/Shareholders, it's Major Controlling Shareholders -it's largest member banks, that by the way were all were hopelessly bankrupted and fully insolvent and worse since long before 2008. Not to mention all the felony frauds they committed and other serious crimes. But then were bailed out with at least 15 Trillion is secret loans so far, and it's far from other.

 It's a giant series of schemes and scams. Before the FED we didn't have income taxes at all. They were not needed. The FED loans the USA all it's dollars through bonds since it started in 1913, one hundred years ago. And the USA pays forever interest on all those dollars it borrows. But by mathematics alone it's impossible to pay all the debts back as soon as the very first dollar is loaned out there is more debt plus interest than dollars. $1 loaned to the USA doesn't equal $1 + 0.05 cents interest that is owed after a year or whatever. The debts can never be paid back, it isn't possible to ever pay the debt down significantly, there isn't enough dollars by it's very evil design. It's pure evil.

 They suckered all of our ancestors one hundred years ago. It's rapped in a riddle, tied up in a twisted web of deceit, and contorted so much that almost hardly anyone ever knew the facts until rather recently. Now many know. It wont stand much longer. The FED is nearly dead.

 Without the cost of The FED and the Debt-based currency that goes with it (dollars as we know them) we don't have to endure income taxes on ones labor anymore by way of suddenly saving up to or maybe even more more than one trillion dollars every single year. Merely the interest cost this year alone will be close to half a trillion dollars on all the borrowed dollars from The FED. That just keeps getting ever more expensive every year, along with ever higher debts.

 Or merely end corporate taxation instead of ending income tax on ones labor. In fact already corporate taxation has nearly been ended, and at the same time peoples taxes have gone way up. Corporations used to pay nearly 1/3 of all taxes, but today barely cover a mere 9% in taxes collected. All while they continue to cry out they pay far too much taxes.

 Much like the highest paid professionals in the USA (Physicians) claim their still vastly underpaid while passing on the very highest health care costs in the entire world by a huge margin. Yet it's much more complicated there since doctors costs are usually not the obscene levels that hospitals, surgery, and some pharmaceuticals costs today. They charge that much simply because they can get away with it. Their thieves though, pirates, holding peoples lives at ransom. They routinely bankrupt even well to do people with so called good insurance when ever they become seriously ill or in a serious accident. We can't afford any of them. And we can't afford trillion dollar wars, or trillion dollar war planes, nor a lot of other extreme waste. We cannot afford the at least one trillion per year in corporate welfare either.
 
 Those and many other things have lead us all into financial ruin as a nation. They gamed us all. Many of these same one's grossly defrauded us. Much like the Banksters whom should all have been in prison as of several years ago. Now it's ending, or about to start to end. One way or another this ends badly for them, and the rest of us too.

 It's time to reverse all these trends and many more.

 Greed, excessive, unchecked greed isn't good. Even Gordon Gekko in Wall Street 2.0 admitted as much. Even he learned that much. But his latest movie didn't go over well with the 'greed is good' crowd on wall street, nor in the wealthy gated country clubs. Today their so sick and twisted that their immorality has maybe forever ruined their ability to be remotely caring about anyone else anymore. Today their mostly merely sociopaths and sociopaths whom care not for anything but their own indulging self serving interests. Greed is good, but not excessive, ruinous types of greed, it's no good at all, and not fraudulent nor criminal greed, their both terrible wrongs.

 Capitalism is wonderful and by far the most successful system ever devised. It represents closely what nature is, and likely that is why it's so very successful. But it's not without flaws. And just like governments it needs strong, prudent checks and balances. Today those have been lost.

 It's not capitalism that is immoral in any way, shape or form. But instead those that game the very heart of capitalism and it's rules and laws to their own nefarious ends. These types believe the rules and laws only apply to others. Their true psychopaths in their very nature.

 Idiots that decry that 'corporations are people too', their the very problems today. Their not practicing capitalism, but instead predatory theft of this very nation-state. Corporations are NOT people. 87% of the population agrees. The USA supreme court of Injustice once again showed it's true and very much immoral and traitorous colors there. The wealthy elite and most powerful corporations have fully bought and paid for even our highest court, and of course also congress, the sec, the fda, and even the doj, or so it obviously appears. They have them all in their back pockets. It's just reality until we again change that.

 The evidence is a plain as a blue sky on a cloudless day. Some know this. Merely a few deny it, and many just don't care and OR don't have any clue. But facts are facts. Today their masks are off, the curtains have been drawn back. Their fangs drip blood, they have looted the world of tens of trillions of dollars. And it was NOT true capitalism that enabled them.

 Many just got carried away, some just started believing in their own nonsense, others are simply rotten and evil to their very cores.

 Capitalism (real, live, by the laws and rules capitalism) allowed for the biggest economic sucess in all history from 1950 to 1970, with the very highest tax rates in all history for the wealthiest corporations and people, but modest taxes for everyone else. Yet corporations and the wealthy made money hand over fist back then too. It was sustainable, unlike this nightmare today. As long as they didn't cash out and also paid their employees well they were not heavily taxed. In essence they were forced to pay living wages to the point a single income earner could support their entire family well, and afford everything required. Under the highest tax rates ever (for the wealthiest) we all thrived and the wealthiest thrived too. If those corporations back then refused to be prudent and wise then they paid in taxes those same missed wages so simply put corporations were then forced to pay a living wage or be taxed into submission. Short term speculators were heavily taxed. Hedge funds today speculate short term yet pay the lowest tax rates due to government coercion and influence. What should be and likely is in direct violation of the RICO Act, much like many other things the doj looks the other way on.

 We could debate it all but it wont do any good unless we all know these same facts. So far not many at all do. In fact very, very few of us understand all these facts and much more.

 There are some whom believe if we end corporate taxes we will have the best of worlds. In fact it's quite the opposite as the last few decades has displayed unless someone else (people) pay far higher taxes.

 Corporations have no conscious, and only a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to earn as much as possible. And why they must be held in check by others or their not going to be even willing to pay a living wage to anyone that they aren't coerced into doing one way or another, and yes it's only being forced to do so will they then behave. Decades of tax cuts for the wealth and corporations have done nothing but further destroy what we all once had (the largest, widest, most prosperous middle class in history). By pure accident we arrived in that extremely high tax period to pay off world war two. By accident we learned how to do something that the wealthy are too foolish to comprehend. (The more they pay their employees the more it will trickle back up, not down, just as Henry Ford also knew).

 Many lies and untruths have been swallowed hook line and sinker these last few decades. I did all the research, I analyzed all the facts and data, the conclusions are most obvious. But by all means do the same thing and one will find the same results. It's all self evident for anyone willing to do the vital research, it wasn't that difficult to figure out the truth but it did require a lot of reading, study, and analysis.

 Many are "not good" people. Their far too self serving, far too greedy, many, even most corporations far too cruel to their workers, and far too fraudulently generous to their highest paid executives. There must be a much better balance or none of it is sustainable except at third and second world standards of living.

 One alternative is to force only corporations and the wealthiest to pay all income taxes, and not an absolutely terrible plan at that since sadly their the ones that have been allowed to purchase the very best government that deep pockets can hope to purchase today.

 And ironically all while corporations and their wealthy owners spin the facts and blame the very government they themselves almost fully control, all while most of the fools and dupes below fall for that nonsense ("it's all the governments fault") when it's the very corporations and wealthy that are pulling the puppets strings in the halls of congress and elsewhere in government. In other words the corporations and wealthy are blaming themselves when they blame government because their the ones controlling government.

 But I don't believe it would be wise nor prudent to tax merely corporations and the wealthy since at that point the wealthy and corporations would be then claiming no one else should have hardly any say what so ever, and almost rightly so since they would appear at least on the surface to be picking up the income tax tab. But that isn't the case at all. Prices would simply rise and the costs would be born by everyone, and mostly not by anyone else but the hordes of people (consumers) resulting in yet another indirect tax scheme that the people in the private sector would pay for.

 In this world, it's the Private sector that pays all the costs. The Workers and Corporations in the Private sector provide for everyone else. The rest are merely public servants, and contractors for the various governments. Their all expenses and pay no net revenues even though their made to think they do. Instead their merely rebating some back again into tax coffers which is then almost immediately returned to them. It's the Private sector that bares to entire costs of society. Most don't grasp even that much.

 Today people in this world, and corporations too, pay many more taxes than just income taxes. Today governments have the biggest debt bubbles in all of history because they failed to do their jobs and allowed themselves to be gamed by the very corporations and wealthy, plus a very long list of others that then turn around and blame it on those that worked hard all their lives and suddenly are told they don't deserve any returns on their tax investments nor any of their social security payments returned either.

 Try paying 15.3% of your lifetime earning into any pension, like most have paid into Social Security and Medicare, then turning around and being told you don't deserve anything back. That's what one side would have us all believe. And if it's a war, a full on civil war, cold or hot that one desires, then that's exactly how to trigger one in that order. Today it's a cold civil war. But it may not stay that way if the government turns against it's very peoples! Government has forgotten their merely servants of the people. They too have lost their way and minds. Or so it surely appears to be exactly that in many various ways. If one has been paying close attention then one knows exactly what I am referring to, and if not, well they say ignorance is bliss, but I heatedly disagree here.

 The shit is already hitting the fan for 15 years running since April 2000 in terms of the debt levels and unsustainable financial path almost the entire world finds itself in.

 We're merely half way through this shit-storm termed the Greater Depression and world record debts, yet the clowns controlling things claim we're in recovery since what? 2010. NOT. All while these same predator capitalists (fascists, communists, feudalist's, whatever...one care's to label them, criminals rings a bell...) demand to borrow and spend future generations monies by way of QE to infinity to further support their pirating plunder and rob the poor and even the entire middle class of every last dollar and asset they possibly can through the ravages of severe inflation now possibly quite close by. In short their criminals with slick, silk suits. They know it, we know it. It ends badly for everyone.
And the entire upper classes are going along with them since it's in their own self serving interests. Maybe not all of the entire upper classes, but certainly far too many of them to yet stop the insanity. The last time something like this occurred it triggered the Great Depression and World War 2. History is already rhyming again.

 Capitalism isn't bad. In fact it's the best economic system to date.

 But some people are absolutely no good. Others not so bad, but not so good. Still others okay, and some quite good, a few awesome.

 They conned generations. Now comes the bills.

They refuse to pay, and so do we. It ends badly.

 They demand we pay. I refuse. You refuse too OP.

 But I will pay my taxes. It's the law.

 We must support the elderly whom paid all their lives into social security and medicare, and simply cannot work much anymore, but means testing and restructuring of coverages seems mandatory going forward for at least the upper classes. Same for the very sick, the disabled, and others that paid in all their lives and expect the contract to be fulfilled that they were forced compulsively to pay into their entire lives if ever able to. They did their part, lived up to their end, yet the pirates and other immoral types would have us dump all these into the streets and far worse.

 We also must pay the other costs associated with government. Like it or not. Those costs must be paid somehow. But not with predators preying off all of us by way of loaning us our very currency we utilize and then all the evil that goes with such nonsense. (see above...).

 Corporations and wealthiest, including their puppets in Congress and in the White House can find only tens of trillions to prop up their own needs,  and desires with their ten's of trillions in bailouts; damn the rest to hell and the second or even third world. Far too many naive and gullible people are buying in to their many almost unending string of lies. I can only strongly suggest to turn off the TV News and read the news online instead, and beware what any major corporate controlled news source parrots as news but is all too often corporate propaganda.

 I am setting the record straight here in a thread called "Re: Capitalism and immorality"

 It's not "real capitalism" that is immoral. Quite the contrary. Capitalism so far the best economic system devised because it motivates all to achieve sucess and doesn't ever reward failure with bonuses and bailouts.

 These pirates today demand we all reward their failures with bailouts for them, and austerity for the rest of us.

 And to add further insult that we issue their key employees  bonuses on top of their bailouts, and likely merely to keep their key employees from turning states evidence of the many crimes and frauds committed by and for their corporate and wealthy masters, or at their very directions at the very least. Sadly hardly any of them have yet met the halls of justice. But they will, and all their ill gotten gains will be clawed back. Their no different than Maddoff. As the world unwinds and shit further hits the fans people in mass will demand it. So will even the puppets in the halls of government.

 Now we're at war and they don't like it.

 Their going down for the count.

 But like it or not society must pay taxes or resort to living in entirely off the lands in a mid-evil type of state, much like the third world, and even then their will be feudal lords demanding their surfs pay a kings ransom in taxes. The third world is not any utopia, not even for the feudal lords. It sucks to put it bluntly. If the reader has any doubt then go visit it, it's very close by where ever the reader resides. And even the second world is no comparison to the first world. Already much of the first world of both Europe and the USA as well as other locals have already quickly sunk into the second world these last several years. So there. The battle rages on.

 They (the wealthy ruling elite and most powerful corporations) declared war on all the rest of us a few decades ago, maybe even several decades ago. Now we must take the war to their door steps and drag the criminals off to prison, and claw back all their ill gotten gains. It may not prove easy, but it's got to be done. And we must come up with superior concepts and methods. Satoshi Nakomoto did just that with Bitcoin.

 Your demands that "taxes are evil" is wrong. Their required for all societies. IF you don't care to pay them don't, but beware of the cruelest mobsters all called revenuers (the tax agents). Eventually they tend to crush those that force everyone else to carry their water, per say. I tend to fully agree that tax cheats are criminals, and if their big cheats they deserve to lose everything, and forced to work off extremely large fines for decades, but certainly not in prison, but instead working their tails off to pay society back, plus heavy fines. Far too many get off with merely a couple of years in prison and not much else besides forced to start over, that too must change. Instead of prison that again costs everyone else enormous amounts we need to devise more equitable compliance methods.

 If the OP disagrees I suggest shopping around the world, but I seriously doubt one will find a better deal than what the USA or other first world countries offer them, or at least had offered just a few decades ago, and will soon have again.

 Many will simply not allow anything nor anyone to hijack our country, same in other countries. No matter what the costs, no matter what it takes, we're not surrendering to threats, nor any fear tactics, nor any type of fascism or communism, much less predator style capitalism which is just another word for neo-fuedalism. We're not in fear of our military nor our police. Their us, not the wealthy ruling elite nor the corporate executives. They wont turn on their own peoples. Not a chance. It's a giant bluff, and ruse, propagated by wealthy cowards whom are psychopaths, or at the very least sociopaths. One way or another their end is near. And if we all fail, then the heavens will end up raining fallout or at least hot battles and wars in every first world country before much longer. Either way, their end is very near. It's them that are now held in checkmate. And up to a billion or more souls if sheer madness ends up doing the unthinkable.

The stakes suddenly couldn't be higher. Yet their cowards. I already know who wins these wars. I just don't yet know how it will end.

 Our children and grandchildren deserve far better, so do we. After all, even our military's veterans now largely agree.


Bitcoin is Pure Capitalism.

Yes, but I'm certain it is a problem in all forms of capitalism. Social capitalism is actually supposed to lessen those effects, however the politcians might call our system this name, but often they are actually doing the opposite - like with those bailouts.

Does your truly free market allow monopolies?

That kind of stuff happens with crony capitalism. The big players get bailouts and the average people lose their homes. A truly free market would solve more social problems than it would create.

Especially stuff which gets worse in capitalistic systems (e.g. a widening social gap between rich and poor) and stuff nobody feels responsible for (e.g. some environmental problems) needs to be solved in some way.

I am a libertarian but not an anarchist. I believe in limited government for defense and enforcing contracts. Anything else is too much.

In the same way it's wrong to assume that every government has to be bad, just because our current ones are kinda bad.

Maybe there are ways to manage a society in a decentralised way, just like Bitcoin is a way to solve some currency problems in a decentralized way.
I haven't heard many convincing ideas in that regard though and it isn't really helping that quite some liberatarians/anarchists use the word "free market" like it's some magic that will automatically cure all problems.

There will be ways to maintain order. Maybe neighborhoods band together to hire peace officers etc. This idea that civilization can't exist without central authority is simply wrong. Civilized people create governments, governments do not civilize people. 

I probably can imagine over 1000 ways of this system going totally wrong.

If you are ever going to found a state with an anarchy-like system, you better have a more solid plan than "we just kill the bad guys" up your sleeves.
Otherwise, please remind me to stay very far away from that place, there is going to be a bloodbath.

Wouldn't you prefer that there was some kind of surveillance on the streets to prevent the raping in the first place?
How would you find the raper without an organized police?

Says the wolf to the sheep.

People who don't want to get killed stop themselves from killing other people. In preventing a "bad guy" from killing a "good guy", the government also stops good guys from killing bad guys right back. You want to know how a stateless court would handle the rape of my daughter? They wouldn't. I'd have killed the fucker first.

I agree. Government is necessary to protect the rights of its citizens. And nothing more.