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Topic: CATO Evaluation of Bitcoin Eventual Collapse of protocol - page 2. (Read 2403 times)

legendary
Activity: 4228
Merit: 1313
This.  Also, in the not too distant future we'll hit the same process as CPUs, memory etc for miners.  E.g. 14 nm, 7 nm, 5nm.  Once mining rigs hit the same process that CPUs and other semiconductors are using for that generation hash rate increases will level off and growth will be due to the number of chips sold and much slower increases in hash rates due to process improvements.  E.g. the Avalon was a 110nm process for their chips, the AntMiner S3 is 28nm process and other chips are using smaller processes (all iirc although I think they are accurate or very close).  The performance increases between GPU and 110nm was huge.  The performance increases between 110n and 28nm (for example) are large too.  

However, going from 28nm to 14nm (what Intel is using in many of their chips now) is good, but not the same order of magnitude as 110nm to 28nm.  Once you see new mining rigs all running on the current process at a high clock rate, then I believe that you will end up with more opportunities for "hobby miners" since they will be able to project an ROI much easier and it will be much more likely that they will be able to have a ROI.  People will be much more inclined to purchase a miner if they know it won't be replaced by something 100 times better in 3 months.

This will be a somewhat more stable situation in terms of hash rate increases and miners coming to market.  It will be closer to how CPU mining was in 2010 and GPU mining was in, 2011-2012 (even the first third of 2013) where you could buy a few video cards and have a pretty good idea that they would return X BTC/week (decreasing slightly each week due to added GPUs on the network) for a year or two until a new video card came out and that might cause a slight increase in the difficulty increases.  And even then you might mine some fewer BTC/week but not 1/1000th of the number in that period like the difference between January 2013 and November 2014.

It is difficult to model and so it is not surprising that they may not be catching all the nuances there.  I certainly wouldn't be confident in being able to predict it all going forward.  Particularly with so many variables - regulations, halving in ~18 months, improvements (e.g. sidechains etc), new uses.


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Yup. Additionally, large miners are likely to, eventually, vertically integrate other services. There are some potential negatives (as well as positives) to that, but it also probably means that there are a number of workable business models for a number of large fairly-efficient miners, as opposed to an endgame where strictly the least-cost producer gobbles all hashpower.

Regardless of all that, the same arguments that are thrown around about mining could be thrown around about data-centers in general (OMG! there will only be a single least-cost/massive-scale producer that will run everything!), or pretty much *any* industry for that matter; this is really just a (mostly) extrapolated-short-sight criticism of capitalism in general, not specifically bitcoin mining. Few industries actually coalesce to pure monopoly in practice.

Anyway, the natural incentives of bitcoin mining make it less likely than other domains.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Well deserved "Legendary" status, thanks again guys!  Will include in email to Kevin
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
...


Thanks Elwar and Melbustus!

I agree and think David underestimates the Mining communities ability to Point.

I think he is eluding to the potential for a privatized entity (non-pooled), to monopolize (>60%).
I would need to further quantify, however I think he believe's it wouldn't cost that much to implement?

For this, I don't know how much it would cost, let's just pose hypercritically: Only $4-7 Billion? This is not a lot of money.


Two things:

1) A rational economically-motivated actor would not hold at >50% because confidence in the decentralization of the system would severely drop, and along with that, price. A very aggressive and risk-phillic actor *might* "see what happens" to empirically prove that to themselves, but they'd discover the motivation to stay less than 50%.

2) Non economically-motivated actors are a different story. It's probably way less than $4-$7B in hashpower necessary to 51% bitcoin right now. Note, though, that while a successful 51% attack would be a severe blow, it wouldn't be fatal. Some thoughts from Gavin: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2012/05/neutralizing-51-attack.html (May 2012)

And more commentary from Gavin on this in general: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/06/centralized-mining/ (June 2014)
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
For this, I don't know how much it would cost, let's just pose hypercritically: Only $4-7 Billion? This is not a lot of money.

That is $4-7 Billion to destroy a currency that would then be replaced the next day.

You could spend $3 billion to take over Western Union and dismantle it completely (only to be replaced a year or so later by another company).

But why? Just for kicks? So banks can can protect their advantage?

This is why PoW is the best...it becomes increasingly costly to stop Bitcoin.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
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He ignores the fact that a mining company getting paid in bitcoins has ZERO incentive to destroy the value of the currency it is paid in. As has been seen before with GHASH.io. As they approached 50%, many of its members jumped ship and joined other pools.
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Yup. Additionally, large miners are likely to, eventually, vertically integrate other services. There are some potential negatives (as well as positives) to that, but it also probably means that there are a number of workable business models for a number of large fairly-efficient miners, as opposed to an endgame where strictly the least-cost producer gobbles all hashpower.

Regardless of all that, the same arguments that are thrown around about mining could be thrown around about data-centers in general (OMG! there will only be a single least-cost/massive-scale producer that will run everything!), or pretty much *any* industry for that matter; this is really just a (mostly) extrapolated-short-sight criticism of capitalism in general, not specifically bitcoin mining. Few industries actually coalesce to pure monopoly in practice.

Anyway, the natural incentives of bitcoin mining make it less likely than other domains.


Thanks Elwar and Melbustus!

I agree and think Kevin underestimates the Mining communities ability to Point.

I think he is eluding to the potential for a privatized entity (non-pooled), to monopolize (>60%).
I would need to further quantify, however I think he believe's it wouldn't cost that much to implement?

For this, I don't know how much it would cost, let's just pose hypercritically: Only $4-7 Billion? This is not a lot of money.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
mainstream discovers the 51% problem...they are learning more and more. they even know the blockchain in these days.  Tongue


Heh...yeah. This year has been like watching the discussions that took place here 3-4yrs ago occur again in mainstream media, except much slower, with less precision, and more trolling.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1014
In Satoshi I Trust
mainstream discovers the 51% problem...they are learning more and more. they even know the blockchain in these days.  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
...
He ignores the fact that a mining company getting paid in bitcoins has ZERO incentive to destroy the value of the currency it is paid in. As has been seen before with GHASH.io. As they approached 50%, many of its members jumped ship and joined other pools.
...


Yup. Additionally, large miners are likely to, eventually, vertically integrate other services. There are some potential negatives (as well as positives) to that, but it also probably means that there are a number of workable business models for a number of large fairly-efficient miners, as opposed to an endgame where strictly the least-cost producer gobbles all hashpower.

Regardless of all that, the same arguments that are thrown around about mining could be thrown around about data-centers in general (OMG! there will only be a single least-cost/massive-scale producer that will run everything!), or pretty much *any* industry for that matter; this is really just a (mostly) extrapolated-short-sight criticism of capitalism in general, not specifically bitcoin mining. Few industries actually coalesce to pure monopoly in practice.

Anyway, the natural incentives of bitcoin mining make it less likely than other domains.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
Cato is not a libertarian think tank anymore as they would have you believe.

They endorsed Fred Thompson during the Republican primaries and they include Bill Gates among their former board members.



The full premise to his theory is the same as the many arguments that have been going on here. That PoW will lead to one mining company having a monopoly and destroying Bitcoin.

He ignores the fact that a mining company getting paid in bitcoins has ZERO incentive to destroy the value of the currency it is paid in. As has been seen before with GHASH.io. As they approached 50%, many of its members jumped ship and joined other pools.

What will be discovered is the power of people voluntarily pooling their resources. This is the overlooked game changer of this generation.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Here's a rationale provided by Kevin Dowd, University of Durham

Similar concerns have been expressed by our BTC community in recent times. What I'm looking for is logical input from you guys, whether he is right or wrong?

I will approach Kevin with arguments/rebuttals and post his response here, thanks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlydjg1tiso
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