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Topic: Caveat emptor (Read 40341 times)

hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 535
May 23, 2017, 08:22:53 AM
#51
Mining is the process of converting energy into proof-of-work
for the purpose of establishing a tamper-resistant historical
record in Bitcoin.

While mining rewards miners with transaction fees and freshly
created coins, mining is not a magical money making process.
In theory, Mining exists in perfect competition, so mining
profitably can be difficult or even impossible.

Currently the Bitcoin system releases ~3600 BTC per day and
these coins are shared proportionally by the miners according
to their relative hashpowers. As overall hashpower increases
the return per hashpower decreases. In recent times hashpower
has been doubling every month or so.

Many mining companies engage in a practice of selling
"pre-orders" thereby shifting the substantial risks of hardware
development entirely onto their customers. The practice of
preorders also exploits ignorance about the future income
mining will yield: People compute their income as if they
had the hardware today, when it's not scheduled for delivery
until months later...

And then almost every hardware maker has missed their
scheduled deadlines. Because of the rapid growth of hashrate
a weeks delay can mean the difference between a nice profit
and a loss. Many makers have also delivered devices substantially
under spec, many others have been outright scams which have
failed to deliver anything at all.

Some of the most experienced people in Bitcoin have lost out
in these offerings, don't just assume you won't be taken.

Companies which have cost people thousands of coins that
they'll never recover are still operating with impunity,
fueled by a seemingly never ending wave of people eager
to get involved who think that mining is a lower risk
way of obtaining coins.

Hosted mining companies with immediately available hashpower
often sell it at greater than it's expected value and themselves
represent enormous consolidation risks to the Bitcoin ecosystem.

In reality, mining is risky: It's riskier than holding
bitcoins because it's comparatively illiquid, and current
mining hardware is not really useful for any other applications.
These risks are multiplied by the unreliability of hardware companies
and the uncertainty of future mining income. Keep in mind: few
companies disclose how much hardware they are selling to other
people, and many of them roll their profits into buying their
own gear at cost and mining in competition with their investor-customers.

That said— I enjoy mining and I would not discourage people
joining in. Mining is essential to the security of Bitcoin.
It's important that mining be widely distributed and especially when people
mine using P2Pool it contributes to keeping Bitcoin decentralized and secure.

Just don't rush in thinking you are going to make a ton of riskless
money. At current retail prices I doubt most hardware available will
break even unless the growth rate slows substantially, which seems
unlikely in the near term. I think the exuberance of miners has
fueled the irresponsibility in hardware companies and driven more
competent and cautious parties out of the market.

It's all our our responsibility to behave sensibly if we want bitcoin
to flourish.


Yes, I agree. Bitcoin and Mining goes hand in hand but investing and flourishing in one does not equate to flourishing in the other should one think of also investing in the same. It can go both ways, and it still highly depends on the supply and demand of Bitcoins vis-a-vis Miners. It is just so wrong to equate one after the other in all aspects. Both have their own individual risks.
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
May 20, 2017, 01:15:24 PM
#50
I lost money on my Bitmain and BFL gear...
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
August 23, 2016, 09:00:27 AM
#49
I made good $ on my BITMAIN equipment
full member
Activity: 189
Merit: 100
January 30, 2016, 08:04:56 PM
#48
I have bought many bitmain S3 antminers off of ebay and have made 2.5 times what I have put in them So I disagree with mining not been profitable. Just buy used hardware that has already payed for its self.

That trend won't continue mate,
When the halving comes, all NON-MEGA miners are DOOMED!
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
September 06, 2015, 02:19:37 PM
#47
I have bought many bitmain S3 antminers off of ebay and have made 2.5 times what I have put in them So I disagree with mining not been profitable. Just buy used hardware that has already payed for its self.

I've done the same thing with success but I'm wondering now if it is too late because these things are getting old and new technology is coming around the corner as well as the halving.  Anyone have an opinion on this?  Thanks.
member
Activity: 79
Merit: 10
June 25, 2015, 07:31:04 PM
#46
I have bought many bitmain S3 antminers off of ebay and have made 2.5 times what I have put in them So I disagree with mining not been profitable. Just buy used hardware that has already payed for its self.
sr. member
Activity: 382
Merit: 250
June 23, 2015, 02:10:44 PM
#45
"It's all our responsibility to behave sensibly if we want bitcoin
to flourish."------Can't agree more, thank you so much for the contribution.



One problem. It doesn't matter anymore. Companies like KNC and BITMAIN are so far established right now. These are likely multi-million dollar companies who could give a s*** less what we think.

I was told by KNC they don't even plan on selling hardware at a consumer level anymore. They are designing new hardware and not release it to the public. Read about their new 3D chip that promises to drop electricity cost by 1000%. They don't plan on releasing that to the public. If they release a chip that is that power efficient... they will be the only name in mining.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
March 13, 2015, 02:23:22 PM
#44
Remember never buy anything from Black Arrow.
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
August 25, 2014, 07:42:57 AM
#43
Put the funds to escow is good. Smiley
newbie
Activity: 2
Merit: 0
July 08, 2014, 11:45:32 PM
#42
"It's all our responsibility to behave sensibly if we want bitcoin
to flourish."------Can't agree more, thank you so much for the contribution.
newbie
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
May 23, 2014, 05:10:41 PM
#41
Hello everybody,
I'm very new to this world... as of BFL, I've read a lot of bad and sad stories about the pre-ordering and late delivery. However, I've found the BUTTERFLY LABS BFL 50 GH/s , which is almost every on the web.

Please give me advices of whether one of you guys used it or no.

Also, could some one direct me to the right place on how to do calculations?

Any advice is appreciated.

They are so old and obsolete by the next difficulty jimp theu are worhless for mining.   But you can use as a space heater.

Thank you so much for the advice, what do you suggest, what do you think I could get as a start up point?

I want to start with something small and simple so I can understand everything before I can get a more complicated system.
Small and simple: why not try a USB stick miner?

Thank you so much for all of your advices guys... Happy Mining..
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 504
Run a Bitcoin node.
May 20, 2014, 03:38:14 PM
#40
Hello everybody,
I'm very new to this world... as of BFL, I've read a lot of bad and sad stories about the pre-ordering and late delivery. However, I've found the BUTTERFLY LABS BFL 50 GH/s , which is almost every on the web.

Please give me advices of whether one of you guys used it or no.

Also, could some one direct me to the right place on how to do calculations?

Any advice is appreciated.

They are so old and obsolete by the next difficulty jimp theu are worhless for mining.   But you can use as a space heater.

Thank you so much for the advice, what do you suggest, what do you think I could get as a start up point?

I want to start with something small and simple so I can understand everything before I can get a more complicated system.
Small and simple: why not try a USB stick miner?
newbie
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
May 20, 2014, 02:31:03 PM
#39
Hello everybody,
I'm very new to this world... as of BFL, I've read a lot of bad and sad stories about the pre-ordering and late delivery. However, I've found the BUTTERFLY LABS BFL 50 GH/s , which is almost every on the web.

Please give me advices of whether one of you guys used it or no.

Also, could some one direct me to the right place on how to do calculations?

Any advice is appreciated.

They are so old and obsolete by the next difficulty jimp theu are worhless for mining.   But you can use as a space heater.

Thank you so much for the advice, what do you suggest, what do you think I could get as a start up point?

I want to start with something small and simple so I can understand everything before I can get a more complicated system.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 1003
May 19, 2014, 04:12:22 PM
#38
Hello everybody,
I'm very new to this world... as of BFL, I've read a lot of bad and sad stories about the pre-ordering and late delivery. However, I've found the BUTTERFLY LABS BFL 50 GH/s , which is almost every on the web.

Please give me advices of whether one of you guys used it or no.

Also, could some one direct me to the right place on how to do calculations?

Any advice is appreciated.

They are so old and obsolete by the next difficulty jimp theu are worhless for mining.   But you can use as a space heater.
newbie
Activity: 7
Merit: 0
May 17, 2014, 11:14:43 AM
#37
Hello everybody,
I'm very new to this world... as of BFL, I've read a lot of bad and sad stories about the pre-ordering and late delivery. However, I've found the BUTTERFLY LABS BFL 50 GH/s , which is almost every on the web.

Please give me advices of whether one of you guys used it or no.

Also, could some one direct me to the right place on how to do calculations?

Any advice is appreciated.
member
Activity: 75
Merit: 10
May 11, 2014, 07:08:37 PM
#36
First of all gmaxwell, .....
Whatever happens, this forum has been a great place to learn, and I thank you all (well most of you) for your participation in my education!



I am in completely in line with your line of thinking, albeit on a smaller scale. 

However, hardware seems to depreciate at an accelerated rate in the face of ASIC's.  My rig of 1.98 mh/s (couldn't hit the 2k hurdle with one 7970 ($300 ebay, 11/28/13 ), one 7950 ($332, don't ask...01/24/14) and two 5850's ($125, 01/10/14 and $99, 12/26/13) draws around 800 watts.  I bought a gridseed 5 chip ($130, 04/29/14) which brings me to 2300ish kh/s and have been mining with a handful of 5850's (@ 20~ kh/s_) since I figured out the train was already doing 100 mph by the time I got on board.

My cost of electricity is .098 cents/kw/h. Any idiot not sitting next to a screaming rig wondering how to keep it from melting down in the summer heat knows ASIC miners are the future and the demise of the hobby.  $20/day?  LOL!  Try $2/day.  If you're lucky.  Got an extra $1,000 floating around for a scrypt blade?  I know I don't. Sell the cards I have?  Nah.  I'll game with them.  Then probably relegate them to the green board pile in the spare room.

Just like Nascar, the little people get run out by the money.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
April 26, 2014, 06:19:53 AM
#35
A most excellent original post. Gmaxwell is to be congratulated.
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
April 25, 2014, 09:58:49 AM
#34
The hardware vendors have an enormous informational and control advantage over their customers: They know what the pre-order queue and delivery pacing will look like, they know and control how much of their own hardware they intend to buy with, they control how much hardware they sell to other people.  As such, I do think it's a little disingenuous to say "risk is yours to take". If it was pure uncertainty unknown the the buyer and seller then that would be the case, it's not so simple where the informational/control advantage exists.

While there is some truth to what you are saying, no one knows what the landscape will look like in a few months and that's why I believe the risk is still largely on the buyer's side. The risks the manufacturers face are multiple as well, however they have been paid for taking said risks. The buyer (miner) is taking a huge risk gambling on a future that's virtually unknown to anyone. Also, while one company can control what they do and they should be held responsible for their actions they can't control what others are doing or predict the future, therefore I will argue that ultimately the risk is yours to take.
  :(Yes, what you said is very right!
sr. member
Activity: 433
Merit: 250
April 23, 2014, 09:04:34 AM
#33
Not technically a scam company but you might want to add CoinTerra to your list. Not only were they considerably late on delivery. Their units were 25% below advertised hashrate and used 25% more electricity.

To top it of anyone who requested a refund has been left hanging in the wind. I've personally been waiting 5 weeks for my refund ($25k) and they they have stopped replying to my emails. Definitely buyer beware.

I'm almost at the point where I'm done with mining altogether. The whole marketplace seems to be teeming with unscrupulous scumbags only out to make a quick buck.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
April 17, 2014, 02:22:56 AM
#32
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