Topic: CBDC will make Bitcoin MORE valuable - page 2. (Read 748 times)

As long as I read the news about CBDC mostly they use Blockchain technology. They use Blockchain as a base, but provide modifications so that they can supervise the circulation of their money. Many countries are starting to plan CBDCs, they seem to be starting to worry because crypto as a transaction tool is growing rapidly. They are worried so as to make CBDC as a counterpoint. But it seems that it has not been able to lure crypto users because cbdc prifasi is not as good as Crypto.

So you are suggesting that once the CBDC is in place, central banks will give up cash? I don't think that will happen because every country has its own national currency, and with the creation of CBDC it is not clear who will be the main issuer of this digital currency. So at the moment I don't see any difference between the existing online banking system and the creation of new digital currencies. Of course, eventually cash will disappear, but I don't think that time will come quickly.

I really do not see the resason why bitcoin would need this crap. I mean, just try to understand it, isn't this just another form of regulated currency? How different is it from fiat? The only difference I see is that it is even worse than fiat in terms of anonymity. Bitcoin is already doing good as it is. At least despite it not having full anonymity, it still gives us good privacy to an extent. I don't know about y'all but I really am not afan of this CBDC. Having said so, I really don't understand why people, specially you which is a crypto enthusiast that has heen here for years would like CBDC.

They may not be on a blockchain. People tend to assume they will be, but it remains to be seen.

The main difference is that online payments aren't the only option at the moment.  Once you've done KYC/AML with the bank, you can withdraw funds in cash and do what you want in near complete privacy.  This option will likely be phased out as CBDCs become prevalent.

As for any other differences between current online payments and CBDCs, I guess you'll have to wait and see, because we can only speculate right now.  It may even vary by country, depending on how each nation implement theirs.

Any online banking involves all of the things you describe. When you shop with your visa or mastercard, banks and the government, represented by the financial regulator, can easily track all your transactions. So I don't really understand the difference between CBDC and regular online payments. In both, you are a customer of a bank with KYC. Or am I missing something besides the fact that CBDC is on a blockchain?

It would require your CBDC wallet to go through KYC, and this doesn’t work like fiat-cash/paper money. Cash/paper money, anyone can receive and spend it, no one can monitor it if I buy Heroine, pay for sex, or gamble with friends. CBDC is used through a centralized network that is monitored, with your identity exposed, and all your transactions known to the government/central bank. If they decide they don’t like where you spend your money, you can be censored, or cancelled. If this becomes the presiding form of fiat-money, how much more valuable will Bitcoin’s main value-proposition/narrative become?

this EO is not to ban/chastise or prevent crypto.
its just an EO to make a report about what could/should/shouldnt/cant be done in the future

Biden seen issuing crypto oversight exec order next week
https://ph.news.yahoo.com/biden-order-on-crypto-oversight-expected-next-week-source-says-173452499.html?
Explain what is happening in the US. Do they also want to create their own CBDC?

I don't think anything will change fundamentally if central banks issue their own cryptocurrency. The end user does not care how they transfer or receive dollars or other currency. If you are a bank customer, then you have already given them your documents and gone through the KYC process. And to use CBDC, it would probably be enough to be a bank customer.

i understand windfurys preference of ignorance rather than research. but for others who have no clue like windfury..
lets run through how the chinese CBDC works from what has been said in media and news and announcements and reveals from china
dont worry ill keep it simple and ill even translate it to things people understand

the e-rmb(aka e-cny)  works like this

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TL;DR (for the wall of text haters)
example shows alipay is the sole manager of customers served under alipay, alipay is the sole holder of the real life info and only reports suspects to PSB(public security bureau(translate: sec/fintrac/police))
not the PBC(public bank of china)
and not PRC (peoples republic of china('government'(translate: congress, president, ministers,parliament,senate))
yes the PSB if making an arrest can pass the info they get to the department of justice. and such.
but its very much like the american system where by there is no default access at the first entry. its more about disclosure after suspected by the commercial service

also the system allows wallets that have no requirement of KYC. but a low limit of value allowed without KYC

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now for those that can read more then a paragraph without needing an image or a voice over narrating it for them:
ill explain the network typography and then the finer details

there is no 'mining' or blockchain.
there is just a smart contract (translate into certain peoples language: altnet 'funding locks' and 'commitments')
im highly simplifying things to not confuse people  

where by the PBC(public bank of china(treasury)) has a reserve that it splits out to 7 commercial services, where they have a 8 of 8 multisig reserve

and this is an example of the reserve
ECNY1q1111 (PBC) Y7,000,000   ->   ECNY1q1251  Y1,000,000 (QQpay)
                                                       ECNY1q1351  Y1,000,000 (Alipay)
                                                       ECNY1q4251  Y1,000,000 (Tenpay)
                                                       ECNY1q2351  Y1,000,000 (Wepay)
                                                       ECNY1q3451  Y1,000,000 (HUAWEIpay)
                                                       ECNY1q2451  Y1,000,000 (HainanBank)
                                                       ECNY1q4351  Y1,000,000 (Xi'anBank)
knitpicker note: ignore the amounts(yield is not important) they are just demo easy numbers to show the splits
knitpicker note: ignore the public address designations i just made them up in a sequence for easy demo flow
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow
ECNY1q simply to resemble the bc1q or the ln1q prefix of known address formats
ECNY1q?? = main 8 entities EG 11=PBC   13=alipay


all 8 entities have this and watch each other to agree on the splits of outputs and sign to share signatures that it all totals correctly

when all 8 signatory's have signed. the new version is treated as the funding lock
if all have the same txid(sha of txdata) and all sign same txid. its then set as being locked and treated by all as the ruling funding lock

below that is the intermediary accounts (translation factory channels/masterhubs)
EG lets take Alipay

ECNY1q1351  Y1,000,000 (Alipay)   ->   ECNY1q1241  Y83,333 (QQpay)
                                                           ECNY1q4241  Y83,000 (Tenpay)
                                                           ECNY1q2341  Y83,000 (Wepay)
                                                           ECNY1q3441  Y83,000 (HUAWEIpay)
                                                           ECNY1q2441  Y83,000 (HainanBank)
                                                           ECNY1q4441  Y83,000 (Xi'anBank)
                                                           ECNY1q1329999  Y350,000 (Alipay KYC Level 2 app)
                                                           ECNY1q1319999  Y100,000 (Alipay KYC Level 1 app)
                                                           ECNY1q1309999  Y50,000 (Alipay KYC Level 0 app)
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow ECNY1q13? = alipay  ?=kyc level of app EG 0=0

8 main entities(7 commercial services and PBC) see and sign this as alipays 'reserves'
the PBC only sees and accounts and signs for the funding locks down to this level (payment service holdings reserves).
note: the 3 KYC level app accounts are not customer level. they are service level apps of reserves for all customers reserves combined

note: the 2 levels above is what has been publicised as the "2 tier level" that the PBC is privileged/authorised within.

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below explains what the commercial services do outside of the 2 tier system

now continuing with the alipay example
alipay offers 3 wallets services/apps. (KYC2,1,0 shown above) to customers
allipay self manages things happening below this level within the KYC2,1,0 accounts. (PBC doesnt see or sign for these)

KYC0 is where there is no ID required. but it has limits on maximum a user can send/receive without needing to upgrade to the next wallet
payment would fail if someone tried to send more than is allowed in the account(available channel liquidity)
KYC1 that does require some KYC. and KYC2 needs full KYC but at KYC0 there is no human name linked for alipay to get, save, store, record, report

imagine in this example that the KYC0 of Y50,000 was a 'funding commitment' for 10 customers with a $800 (Y5,000) limit
ECNY1q1309999 Y50,000  -> ECNY1q1309001 Y5000
                                           ECNY1q1309002 Y5000
.. and so on for 8 more outputs
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow
ECNY1q1309 = alipay kyc level 0 and alipay ownership of channel 9 reserve

all 10 customers can see the reserve 'funding lock' of the alipayKYC0 and see their public address(identifier) is allotted 5000 but they do not know the human birth certificate names of each other in the KYC0 funding lock.. neither does alipay, nor PBC nor other commercial services
nor do they know how much of that reserve(liquidity) is spent or not spent of that allotment

because the actual account balance (translate channel commitment) the customer spends within is not the funding lock reserve
and not broadcast around

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now
imagining customer ECNY1q1300002 already has a 2500:2500 split of the reserve with alipay
imagining customer ECNY1q1300001 already has a 3000:2000 split of the reserve with alipay

ECNY1q1309002  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y2500 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301002 Y2400 (customer X02)
                                         inflight in Y0
                                         inflight out Y100 (to ECNY1q1301001)

where recipient sees in their account
ECNY1q1309001  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y1900 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301001 Y3000 (customer X01)
                                         inflight in Y100 100 (from ECNY1q1301002)
                                         inflight out Y0
becomes
ECNY1q1309002  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y2600 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301002 Y2400 (customer X02)
                                         inflight in Y0
                                         inflight out Y0

where recipient sees in their account
ECNY1q1309001  Y5000  -> ECNY1q1309999 Y1900 (alipay KYC LEVEL 0 wallet)
                                         ECNY1q1301001 Y3100 (customer X01)
                                         inflight in Y0
                                         inflight out Y0
knitpicker note: sequence for easy demo flow
ECNY1q1309999 = alipay kyc level 0 and alipay 'withdrawal address(should they close account) back to the master kyc0 reserve
ECNY1q130100? = alipay kyc level 0 customer ?= 1 or 2


note: the recipient does not see the whole balance of the sender. all it sees is the inflight amount and the message containing whatever the sender wants to say as an explanation/payment reason EG "coffee from your girlfriend")

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in KYC1 and KYC2 wallets (demo sequence ECNY1q1311001 ECNY1q1321001 respectively)
appears the same but with higher limits. whereby the they still use the 'sequence' ID. but separately alipay also has secure hidden  database linking
ECNY1q1311001 = 'joe bloggs, home address'..
ECNY1q1321001 = 'joe bloggs, home address, tax id number, social security number, etc'..
other people dont get access to this separate birth name database, real life info. nor do the PRC at all.. nor do the PSB have access to this whole database*

its upto Alipay to do their own AML/CFT checks on the payments of its customers to look for suspicious activity. and report it to the authorities.
this is not to the PBC (public bank of china(translate fed reserve)) this is to the PSB(public security bureau(translate SEC/fintrac/police))

when a customer signs up for a KYC2,1 alipay takes the customers KYC checks it with PSB if they are a resident or have a work/tourist permit(visa) and a non-criminal. if it passes as no suspicious warning alipay allows them the higher limit use of the upgraded wallets.
at the registration part alipay does not tell the PSB the abstract wallet ID associated with the KYC. they just ask 'is joe blogs on any warning lists

---

*
later if a suspicious payment is made. then alipay report the abstract(demo sequence identifier) payment to the PSB with a explanation of suspicion and if requested for more information by PSB for the KYC of the user.. then alipay hands that to the PSB
but only the KYC of the suspect. not all customers.

but through all that. the PBC(public bank of china) is not aware of any names of customers
but through all that. the PBC is not watching every payment of customers
but through all that. the PBC is not demanding knowledge of suspicious activity of customers

but through all that. the PSB(public security bureau) is not aware of any names of customers accounts by default from the start
but through all that. the PSB is not watching every payment of customers
only in events of the PSB receiving a suspicious activity report of a abstract payment. will the PSB request KYC and can only ask that of the wallet payments of the KYC 2,1 level. where as the KYC0 level dont provide ID

Many of those who are anti-bitcoin are currently looking for ways to bring down the popularity of bitcoin, but all the efforts they have made so far have not succeeded at all, I think the creation of cbcd will also not affect the development of bitcoin in the future and perhaps it will further strengthen the development of bitcoin later, because in my opinion the system used by cbcd is no different from the one owned by bitcoin, and instead i think cbcd fully adopts bitcoin into their system, some sources say that cbcd also has advantages such as privacy, easy to use, secure like cash, has universal access, cross-border payments, and peer-to-peer usability, and aren't those advantages by bitcoin also has?

Haha, yeah OP got some point here. Though they will try thousand ways to take out bitcoin from the face of earth they will always fail into the same. They just don’t digest that bitcoin have already been digested into the system and it’s just irreversible system now.

All they are now doing is, trying to have their own system so that they can get the attention towards it and away from usage of bitcoins. Similarly other countries trying with unban with taxation.

CBDC is nothing different than this.

It’s WHEN they get on board, and make everyone to switch to CBDC.

A central entity that can track, and control where “your” money can be spent, is not truly your money. Money has to be useful for Mr. Heroine Dealer to be truly good, hard money.

Yes, Definitely.

Bitcoin is the first cryptocurrency ever to exist with its PoW mechanism with the sha256 algorithm using blockchain technology to store its data as an open-source ledger. And working according to specifications mentioned in Whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

CBDC will be a much more altered version which only controlled by Central Authorities. Everything will be on blockchain but still against bitcoins specifications.
Bitcoin's very important specification is anonymous accessibility within the network.

CBDC cannot compete with Bitcoins fundamentals. Ultimately it will increase the price of Bitcoin.

CBDCs will be created by governments so they will be centralized and KYC will be mandatory. They are broken in finance and privacy for the people. Governments don't create things which will give the power back to their citizens. They create CBDCs to control their citizens better by following flow of money better.

CBDCs will help governments to reduce cost of creating new money supply. Printing money from physical machines and factories will require more resources than minting new supply from the air. No factory, no thing, just change code for their CBDCs and mint more. It will be worse for citizens and central finance system but is good for Bitcoin which was created by Satoshi Nakamoto to fix it.

CBDC in practice I don't think will affect anything much because KYC/AML will almost certainly become mandatory. CBDC will not protect the financial privacy we need because the government or certain parties under the auspices of government financial institutions will continue to monitor user balances "in  transactions and out transactions" so that investors who need privacy are really uncomfortable.

CBDC will still be the same as other fiat systems that we have used online such as online banks or others, only the government is trying to balance it with the development of the digital financial system but not to compete with bitcoin. Just as the OP thought, CBDC will only make bitcoin more popular in society which will increase its demand.

For the record, my comments aren't specific to China.  They just happen to be the ones on track to roll out their CBDC first.  I suspect all governments, if they get on board with the switch to digital money, will look for ways to pressure people into using it.

Believe me when I say I'm fully aware that the UK government can be just as totalitarian as any other at times.  I would be equally concerned if they were trialling a similar system here.  Fortunately, given the utter shambles of 'Dido Test and Trace', I'm fairly confident the government is too inept and gormless to accomplish something on a technical scale of that magnitude.  The UK should be safe from CBDCs for at least another decade, probably longer, because we're simply too fucking stupid as a nation to elect competent people into positions of power.   

That truly is the absolute point. If only an anonymous developer built a robust, resilient protocol for a decentralized, censorship-resistant, permissionless cryptocurrency. I believe that would be a very very valuable form of money.

The best post about CBDC
https://twitter.com/Bitcoin/status/1493808277771022336
"The prime purpose for which elites want CBDCs is so they can turn your money off."
Many countries invest huge budgets in these projects. What needs to be done so that people refuse the services of banks?

CBDC is essentially an upgrade of fiat, issued based on today's technological developments instead of using physical fiat. Yes, people will keep buying bitcoin because its price is higher than CBDC and Bitcoin price will continue to increase and demand for owning bitcoin will increase as CBDC will be inflationary and regulated like fiat.