Central Banks could EASILY destroy Bitcoin (if they want)

Coin_Master

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Quote from: Kyt Dotson on January 10, 2014, 09:52:46 PM

Reading the thread is nice but the one point that really resonates with me is -- sure, a huge corporation or state actor could destroy Bitcoin's value...but first that entity would have to care, and second it would need to be worthwhile to throw away whatever money and time it needed to do it.

I'm really not seeing that happen in the near future because of apathy and the fact that, on the state level, it's possible just to make something contraband.

It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Making something contraband does not stop it from happening, or even reduce it's use. In most cases it increases demand and drives the price higher.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-us-drug-survey-marijuana-and-heroin-increasing/
Hoping that making something 'illegal' will stop it from happening is pure fantasy. Stop dreaming my friend

bitbrasil

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Quote from: BurtW on January 10, 2014, 09:22:11 PM

RE Ghash.io and my sarcastic post referenced above:

Just because someone can do something does not mean they will do it. They won't do anything. They will make more money doing exactly what they are doing. They will not throw it all away for some stupid double spend that everyone can detect and respond to.

As far as what exactly they can do and can't do - research it yourself - ever heard of a fancy new web site called Google? It has been explained so many times in so many ways I sick of the subject.

The point of my post is that even though a large pool like Ghash.io will not do anything to harm the network the FUD storm that would accompany them going over 50% would almost certainly create a great buying opportunity due to the panic selling by the uninformed masses.

I wasn't asking what they can or can't do.

So to summarize, you say that they can do but they won't do it. Fine. I also believe Ghash.io won't do it. This doesn't mean someone else won't do it. Someone whose goal is to disrupt Bitcoin.

Kyt Dotson

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Reading the thread is nice but the one point that really resonates with me is -- sure, a huge corporation or state actor could destroy Bitcoin's value...but first that entity would have to care, and second it would need to be worthwhile to throw away whatever money and time it needed to do it.

I'm really not seeing that happen in the near future because of apathy and the fact that, on the state level, it's possible just to make something contraband.

BurtW

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All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

RE Ghash.io and my sarcastic post referenced above:

Just because someone can do something does not mean they will do it. They won't do anything. They will make more money doing exactly what they are doing. They will not throw it all away for some stupid double spend that everyone can detect and respond to.

As far as what exactly they can do and can't do - research it yourself - ever heard of a fancy new web site called Google? It has been explained so many times in so many ways I sick of the subject.

The point of my post is that even though a large pool like Ghash.io will not do anything to harm the network the FUD storm that would accompany them going over 50% would almost certainly create a great buying opportunity due to the panic selling by the uninformed masses.

bitbrasil

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Quote from: BurtW on January 10, 2014, 04:26:04 PM

I am hoping Ghash.io gets 51 or more percent of the hashing, here is why:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4434862

so why don't you tell us or show us a link where it explains clearly that this >50% attack is just FUD and wouldn't affect bitcoin.

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

We sell some of the coins to FED and receive 40 billion dollars, and when it crashed 90%, we spend 4 billion dollars to buy them back, now we have same amount of bitcoin and extra 35 billion dollars Cheesy

subcoin

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OMG. There is not enough face-palms in the world for this thread.
Need to move this under Newbies...

BurtW

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I am hoping Ghash.io gets 51 or more percent of the hashing, here is why:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4434862

Got Bitcoin?

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For reasons already stated it wouldn't work, investors would capitalize, both small and large, and the demand isn't going anywhere, on the contrary, every day that goes by, there are more credible, respectable business and financial entities who are embracing it.

The demand (for a p2p currency free of regulation) will always be greater than the supply and system of the existing alternatives.

Coin_Master

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Quote from: ouwe on January 10, 2014, 03:54:38 PM

Quote from: Gabi on January 10, 2014, 03:39:56 PM

Quote from: Jcw188 on January 10, 2014, 03:36:26 PM

Wouldn't they be able to use their computing power to take over the network and kill it? I'm sure Microsoft or Apple could if they wanted to, right?

It is called a 51% attack. Yes they can, with less than 100 millions $ they can buy enough ASICs to do that.

And it would be much more effective than trying to "ban" it or try to "manipulate" it

Hell, just look at what is happening, a single pool without even trying has almost reached 51% of total hashrate, so long for people that say "nah a 51% attack is so hard to do it is impossible"

lets wait for the first attack then....
it will probably be only once ...
and then it will explode that particular pool
that would be all,i think?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.4433859

ouwe

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Quote from: Gabi on January 10, 2014, 03:39:56 PM

Quote from: Jcw188 on January 10, 2014, 03:36:26 PM

Wouldn't they be able to use their computing power to take over the network and kill it? I'm sure Microsoft or Apple could if they wanted to, right?

It is called a 51% attack. Yes they can, with less than 100 millions $ they can buy enough ASICs to do that.

And it would be much more effective than trying to "ban" it or try to "manipulate" it

Hell, just look at what is happening, a single pool without even trying has almost reached 51% of total hashrate, so long for people that say "nah a 51% attack is so hard to do it is impossible"

lets wait for the first attack then....
it will probably be only once ...
and then it will ex/implode that particular pool
that would be all,i think?

mindfulmojo

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Thanks for the explanation.. I should have known that. Undecided

I was watching the Wolf on Wall Street last night, think it fried my brain...lol

Entertaining movie though....

Coin_Master

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Quote from: mindfulmojo on January 10, 2014, 03:26:51 PM

Quote from: Coin_Master on January 10, 2014, 03:22:36 PM

Quote from: mindfulmojo on January 10, 2014, 03:05:38 PM

No, the market is not always determined by supply and demand. Look what happened to gold and silver over the past year. The price dropped, demand went sky high, and the priced dropped more.

It is very much possible to manipulate markets...

The same people that sell something, can be the same people that buy it at the same time.

They would take a loss... but they wouldn't care. What's more or less fiat currency to a central banker?

You cannot compare a commodity like 'gold' that has an 'unregulated supply' to Bitcoin that 'has a regulated supply'. What I said is correct, you are trying to compare things that cannot be compared. (Again, people without qualifications becoming self proclaimed experts overnight)

I'm not trying to be an "expert"... Just trying to present a scenario where price manipulation would be possible.

Selling.. and then buying your own sale at a loss. If this is not at all possible with bitcoin please explain.

Do you think there was no price manipulation in the early days of bitcoin with Mt. Gox and other exchanges?

The 'scenario' has already been outlined by others here in previous posts. If someone were to start buying large quantities of Bitcoin the price would increase dramatically. The people selling Bitcoin are miners, they did not have to pay someone for the Bitcoin's they are selling. They would just say 'thank you very much for all your money'. If you tried to sell it for less than you paid, they would laugh at you and say 'Ok, you can have some of your money back, and I get all my Bitcoin's back, and I get to keep the difference'. You cannot 'win' by buying high and selling low. It is not like a stock market, where to own a stock, you must buy it. Here you can create Bitcoin's without buying them.

Gabi

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Quote from: Jcw188 on January 10, 2014, 03:36:26 PM

Wouldn't they be able to use their computing power to take over the network and kill it? I'm sure Microsoft or Apple could if they wanted to, right?

It is called a 51% attack. Yes they can, with less than 100 millions $ they can buy enough ASICs to do that.

And it would be much more effective than trying to "ban" it or try to "manipulate" it

Hell, just look at what is happening, a single pool without even trying has almost reached 51% of total hashrate, so long for people that say "nah a 51% attack is so hard to do it is impossible"

Jcw188

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Carpe Diem

Wouldn't they be able to use their computing power to take over the network and kill it? I'm sure Microsoft or Apple could if they wanted to, right?

mindfulmojo

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Quote from: Coin_Master on January 10, 2014, 03:22:36 PM

Quote from: mindfulmojo on January 10, 2014, 03:05:38 PM

No, the market is not always determined by supply and demand. Look what happened to gold and silver over the past year. The price dropped, demand went sky high, and the priced dropped more.

It is very much possible to manipulate markets...

The same people that sell something, can be the same people that buy it at the same time.

They would take a loss... but they wouldn't care. What's more or less fiat currency to a central banker?

You cannot compare a commodity like 'gold' that has an 'unregulated supply' to Bitcoin that 'has a regulated supply'. What I said is correct, you are trying to compare things that cannot be compared. (Again, people without qualifications becoming self proclaimed experts overnight)

I'm not trying to be an "expert"... Just trying to present a scenario where price manipulation would be possible.

I'm admit I'm ignorant, no economics major here, just read zerohedge.com, things like that.

Selling.. and then buying your own sale at a loss. If this is not at all possible with bitcoin please explain.

Do you think there was no price manipulation in the early days of bitcoin with Mt. Gox and other exchanges?

Coin_Master

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Quote from: mindfulmojo on January 10, 2014, 03:05:38 PM

No, the market is not always determined by supply and demand. Look what happened to gold and silver over the past year. The price dropped, demand went sky high, and the priced dropped more.

It is very much possible to manipulate markets...

The same people that sell something, can be the same people that buy it at the same time.

They would take a loss... but they wouldn't care. What's more or less fiat currency to a central banker?

You cannot compare a commodity like 'gold' that has an 'unregulated supply' to Bitcoin that 'has a regulated supply'. What I said is correct, you are trying to compare things that cannot be compared. (Again, people without qualifications becoming self proclaimed experts overnight)

mindfulmojo

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Quote from: Coin_Master on January 10, 2014, 03:00:56 PM

Quote from: michielnl on January 10, 2014, 01:38:36 PM

It is not about buy it all, but to manipulate the price.
They buy on current prices and then dump it with large volume and take losses (since they can afford to).
This will scare most investors who will leave.

Just who is going to buy back 'all' this Bitcoin? It may be easy for 'Actors with unlimited purchasing power' to buy Bitcoin, but that does not mean they will be able to sell it. You clearly have no idea how a market works. Price is determined by supply and demand. 'Actors with unlimited purchasing power' cannot change the supply, as this is set by the difficulty of the network. The only way to lower the price would be to reduce demand, 'Economics 101'.
I find it laughable, how so many people hear about Bitcoin, then all of a sudden think they are market guru's and economists.

No, the market is not always determined by supply and demand. Look what happened to gold and silver over the past year. The price dropped, demand went sky high, and the priced dropped more.

It is very much possible to manipulate markets...

The same people that sell something, can be the same people that buy it at the same time.

They would take a loss... but they wouldn't care. What's more or less fiat currency to a central banker?

Coin_Master

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Quote from: michielnl on January 10, 2014, 01:38:36 PM

It is not about buy it all, but to manipulate the price.
They buy on current prices and then dump it with large volume and take losses (since they can afford to).
This will scare most investors who will leave.

Just who is going to buy back 'all' this Bitcoin? It may be easy for 'Actors with unlimited purchasing power' to buy Bitcoin, but that does not mean they will be able to sell it. You clearly have no idea how a market works. Price is determined by supply and demand. 'Actors with unlimited purchasing power' cannot change the supply, as this is set by the difficulty of the network. The only way to lower the price would be to reduce demand, 'Economics 101'.
I find it laughable, how so many people hear about Bitcoin, then all of a sudden think they are market guru's and economists.

BurtW

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Quote from: whtchocla7e on January 10, 2014, 02:34:58 PM

What if Satoshi was a fictional character created by the Central Bank?

Right. I am out of here. Stupid thread.

Topic: Central Banks could EASILY destroy Bitcoin (if they want) (Read 3535 times)