Change in BIP32 will make Trezor 1.0 useless?

harrymmmm

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Quote from: ransomer on August 03, 2015, 05:21:36 PM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 03, 2015, 05:08:44 PM

Quote from: cafucafucafu on August 02, 2015, 12:56:12 PM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 02, 2015, 09:18:48 AM

This whole thread is pretty much just FUD.
Any relevant change to protocols will be implemented as a firmware update to Trezor devices.

Trezors are not 'subject to failure' as far as I know.
Paper is hardly more secure or long-lasting.

Well I am no expert. I was just looking at what Andreas said.

The issue he's talking about is that it gets harder to change a protocol when it starts to become embedded.
It's not that the protocol changes can't be released as an upgrade, it's more that there are many devices that will never get upgraded for various reasons. Think about stuff like home routers, for example, that never get an upgrade.
If the network stops completely, people would either learn how to do it, pay someone to do it, or buy another router

Bitcoin involves their money, so I'd think the incentive is there to get the upgrade particularly if they can no longer access their money. Upgrades that just add features will likely not get done.

Even if there is are many reasons to upgrade they will not get done if people leave the hardware wallet in a bank vault for x years. Many people want wealth they can treat like that.

No problem there. The bitcoin is on the blockchain and safe. The hardware device holds a copy of the keys, but they can be kept elsewhere as well for use with any kind of wallet in future.
I would have trouble believing that in 10 years time there would be no software around that could restore those keys given a current hd seed even if the protocol was changed. Maybe a minor speed bump to get someone to find the software and do it for you, I guess.

errornone

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Activity: 98

Merit: 10

error

that is why i think BREADWALLET is the best wallet and cold storage out there.

iOS is super secure and you can always update everything to the newest versions.

It relies on BIP32+BIP39, so every private-key you actually have can be stored in your brain (or wherever you want). It is genius.

ransomer

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 03, 2015, 05:08:44 PM

Quote from: cafucafucafu on August 02, 2015, 12:56:12 PM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 02, 2015, 09:18:48 AM

This whole thread is pretty much just FUD.
Any relevant change to protocols will be implemented as a firmware update to Trezor devices.

Trezors are not 'subject to failure' as far as I know.
Paper is hardly more secure or long-lasting.

Well I am no expert. I was just looking at what Andreas said.

The issue he's talking about is that it gets harder to change a protocol when it starts to become embedded.
It's not that the protocol changes can't be released as an upgrade, it's more that there are many devices that will never get upgraded for various reasons. Think about stuff like home routers, for example, that never get an upgrade.
If the network stops completely, people would either learn how to do it, pay someone to do it, or buy another router

Bitcoin involves their money, so I'd think the incentive is there to get the upgrade particularly if they can no longer access their money. Upgrades that just add features will likely not get done.

Even if there is are many reasons to upgrade they will not get done if people leave the hardware wallet in a bank vault for x years. Many people want wealth they can treat like that.

harrymmmm

hero member

Activity: 576

Merit: 503

Quote from: cafucafucafu on August 02, 2015, 12:56:12 PM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 02, 2015, 09:18:48 AM

This whole thread is pretty much just FUD.
Any relevant change to protocols will be implemented as a firmware update to Trezor devices.

Trezors are not 'subject to failure' as far as I know.
Paper is hardly more secure or long-lasting.

Well I am no expert. I was just looking at what Andreas said.

The issue he's talking about is that it gets harder to change a protocol when it starts to become embedded.
It's not that the protocol changes can't be released as an upgrade, it's more that there are many devices that will never get upgraded for various reasons. Think about stuff like home routers, for example, that never get an upgrade.
If the network stops completely, people would either learn how to do it, pay someone to do it, or buy another router

Bitcoin involves their money, so I'd think the incentive is there to get the upgrade particularly if they can no longer access their money. Upgrades that just add features will likely not get done.

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: Hopalong on August 01, 2015, 04:53:36 PM

Quote from: cafucafucafu on August 01, 2015, 04:08:14 PM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 01, 2015, 03:11:12 PM

Quote from: ransomer on August 01, 2015, 02:15:00 PM

Having bitcoins in a hardware wallet is a scary proposition. At least if the idea is to put it in and forget it for 10 years or so... Because with the speed of software changes - it is likely that in 10 years it will be very difficult if not almost impossible to access such an ancient system with much more modern software.

All software or hardware wallets will be impossible to access in just a few years. Already software from pre vista times are failing unless it is wery well written. I have a lot of floppy disks, 3.5 disk, HDs, CDs and USB devices that are failing and many terrabytes of informaton is gone.

If it uses BIP32 it shouldn't matter which wallet you use.

Even when you cant get the wallet software to run?

there will always be today's version of software available on github; forever. so even if software updates and becomes backwards incompatible, all previous versions are available to access your current wallets.

cafucafucafu

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Activity: 812

Merit: 509

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 02, 2015, 09:18:48 AM

This whole thread is pretty much just FUD.
Any relevant change to protocols will be implemented as a firmware update to Trezor devices.

Trezors are not 'subject to failure' as far as I know.
Paper is hardly more secure or long-lasting.

Well I am no expert. I was just looking at what Andreas said.

Mickeyb

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Move On !!!!!!

Quote from: dasource on August 02, 2015, 09:26:16 AM

I fail to see how this is an issue? regardless of it being Trezor or any other "BIP39" complaint hardware wallet.

So long as you remember your BIP39 mnemonic words you can recover your private keys and move funds even if there are changes OR your hardware wallet dies. There is half a dozen websites providing client side tools i.e. a single file (html + js) that you can keep on a USB (if you are paranoid that it wont be available in the future) that will derive your private keys from your BIP39 mnemonic (all done from the comfort of a old PC without a internet connection)

Need less of this scaremongering around here.

EDIT : Personally I use multiple hardware wallets with multisig ... get the best of both worlds + best security possible.

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 02, 2015, 09:18:48 AM

This whole thread is pretty much just FUD.
Any relevant change to protocols will be implemented as a firmware update to Trezor devices.

Trezors are not 'subject to failure' as far as I know.
Paper is hardly more secure or long-lasting.

Thank you guys, now I can sleep tighter!

dasource

hero member

Activity: 821

Merit: 1000

I fail to see how this is an issue? regardless of it being Trezor or any other "BIP39" complaint hardware wallet.

So long as you remember your BIP39 mnemonic words you can recover your private keys and move funds even if there are changes OR your hardware wallet dies. There is half a dozen websites providing client side tools i.e. a single file (html + js) that you can keep on a USB (if you are paranoid that it wont be available in the future) that will derive your private keys from your BIP39 mnemonic (all done from the comfort of a old PC without a internet connection)

Need less of this scaremongering around here.

EDIT : Personally I use multiple hardware wallets with multisig ... get the best of both worlds + best security possible.

harrymmmm

hero member

Activity: 576

Merit: 503

This whole thread is pretty much just FUD.
Any relevant change to protocols will be implemented as a firmware update to Trezor devices.

Trezors are not 'subject to failure' as far as I know.
Paper is hardly more secure or long-lasting.

Mickeyb

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Move On !!!!!!

Quote from: Kprawn on August 02, 2015, 05:08:35 AM

This is nonsense... Why can I still play ZX Spectrum games on emulators, without the physical hardware? The hardware goes obsolete but the possibility to access it, is just

changed or adapted.

Do you think Trezor are not looking into matters like these? There will be widespread announcements, if this happens and they will have some sort of solution in place, if it does.

If you have any questions about this, send them a email and ask them what the plan B would be in such an event. Wink

You would be a fool, to keep all your coins in a hardware wallet anyway. Roll Eyes

Exactly my opinion, I think they are too serious not to think and anticipate things like this. I mean people are dealing and escrowing thousands of bitcoins daily by using Trezor and just to think about an event like this, sounds impossible to me.

Anyways, I have written in their thread and pointed back to this thread. Maybe they will respond and give their opinion, lets hope.

Kprawn

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1073

This is nonsense... Why can I still play ZX Spectrum games on emulators, without the physical hardware? The hardware goes obsolete but the possibility to access it, is just

changed or adapted.

Do you think Trezor are not looking into matters like these? There will be widespread announcements, if this happens and they will have some sort of solution in place, if it does.

If you have any questions about this, send them a email and ask them what the plan B would be in such an event. Wink

You would be a fool, to keep all your coins in a hardware wallet anyway. Roll Eyes

Mickeyb

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Move On !!!!!!

Quote from: unamis76 on August 01, 2015, 05:10:05 PM

Quote from: Mickeyb on August 01, 2015, 04:38:08 PM

So what does this means exactly, that I can throw my Trezor away after this? Can't they just write a new update or software for the Trezor?

And second question, are our bitcoins on Trezor in danger after this happens?

Thanks guys.

This means that you can carry on using your Trezor and when a BIP is released and implement to replace BIP32 you change device. Simple as that.

Your Trezor or another hardware wallet will keep on working, but as said before in this thread, with old software.

I still don't know what's the deal Cheesy

Things change, tech evolves and we change with it. I keep my question, what's going to change in BIP32? We all know the answer. Just change device when a new BIP comes.

So call me stupid or whatever, but I don't understand. After BIP changes, I will have to change my Trezor for a completely new device??

Why not just a software upgrade? Weren't the Trezor people thinking about this before they have designed their product?

btchip

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CTO, Ledger

It's a non issue if the software is designed properly. People have been issuing delta patches (even over SMS) to embedded hardware for decades.

unamis76

legendary

Activity: 1512

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Quote from: Mickeyb on August 01, 2015, 04:38:08 PM

So what does this means exactly, that I can throw my Trezor away after this? Can't they just write a new update or software for the Trezor?

And second question, are our bitcoins on Trezor in danger after this happens?

Thanks guys.

This means that you can carry on using your Trezor and when a BIP is released and implement to replace BIP32 you change device. Simple as that.

Your Trezor or another hardware wallet will keep on working, but as said before in this thread, with old software.

I still don't know what's the deal Cheesy

Things change, tech evolves and we change with it. I keep my question, what's going to change in BIP32? We all know the answer. Just change device when a new BIP comes.

gentlemand

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Activity: 2590

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Welt Am Draht

When I were a nipper in the deep mists of time there was much excitement when this was launched

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project

And it was pretty darned cool. An interactive overview of the whole country with maps and virtual tours made by thousands of people on a type of laser disc.

It's also a well known case of obsolescence. The whole project was nearly rendered unreadable within 15 or so years and was only rescued and converted by some tech trickery.

I'll be sticking with paper myself. Even if your hardware stands up there's a risk of software adapting into uselessness or a new bug popping up from nowhere.

Hopalong

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Merit: 10

Quote from: cafucafucafu on August 01, 2015, 04:08:14 PM

Quote from: Hopalong on August 01, 2015, 03:11:12 PM

Quote from: ransomer on August 01, 2015, 02:15:00 PM

Having bitcoins in a hardware wallet is a scary proposition. At least if the idea is to put it in and forget it for 10 years or so... Because with the speed of software changes - it is likely that in 10 years it will be very difficult if not almost impossible to access such an ancient system with much more modern software.

All software or hardware wallets will be impossible to access in just a few years. Already software from pre vista times are failing unless it is wery well written. I have a lot of floppy disks, 3.5 disk, HDs, CDs and USB devices that are failing and many terrabytes of informaton is gone.

If it uses BIP32 it shouldn't matter which wallet you use.

Even when you cant get the wallet software to run?

Meuh6879

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Activity: 1512

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Quote from: ransomer on August 01, 2015, 02:15:00 PM

Having bitcoins in a hardware wallet is a scary proposition. At least if the idea is to put it in and forget it for 10 years or so...

that why, in cold storage (for 10 years), you have only 2 solutions really secure :
- store wallet.dat from a bitcoin core
- use a paper wallet ( https://www.bitaddress.org )

i don't understand why tresor is not a paper wallet (algorythm) ... Undecided

update is very simple in this way.

Mickeyb

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Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Move On !!!!!!

Quote from: cafucafucafu on August 01, 2015, 01:45:05 PM

At 4 mins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXwVqvrkm4g

So what does this means exactly, that I can throw my Trezor away after this? Can't they just write a new update or software for the Trezor?

And second question, are our bitcoins on Trezor in danger after this happens?

Thanks guys.

cafucafucafu

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 509

Quote from: Hopalong on August 01, 2015, 03:11:12 PM

Quote from: ransomer on August 01, 2015, 02:15:00 PM

Having bitcoins in a hardware wallet is a scary proposition. At least if the idea is to put it in and forget it for 10 years or so... Because with the speed of software changes - it is likely that in 10 years it will be very difficult if not almost impossible to access such an ancient system with much more modern software.

All software or hardware wallets will be impossible to access in just a few years. Already software from pre vista times are failing unless it is wery well written. I have a lot of floppy disks, 3.5 disk, HDs, CDs and USB devices that are failing and many terrabytes of informaton is gone.

If it uses BIP32 it shouldn't matter which wallet you use.

Hopalong

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Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Quote from: ransomer on August 01, 2015, 02:15:00 PM

Having bitcoins in a hardware wallet is a scary proposition. At least if the idea is to put it in and forget it for 10 years or so... Because with the speed of software changes - it is likely that in 10 years it will be very difficult if not almost impossible to access such an ancient system with much more modern software.

All software or hardware wallets will be impossible to access in just a few years. Already software from pre vista times are failing unless it is wery well written. I have a lot of floppy disks, 3.5 disk, HDs, CDs and USB devices that are failing and many terrabytes of informaton is gone.

Topic: Change in BIP32 will make Trezor 1.0 useless? (Read 1352 times)