Changing the 21 million bitcoin limit - page 2.

Anders

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Quote from: RodeoX on August 05, 2014, 10:57:48 AM

I have zero interest in an open ended production system. These would be worthless to me. It is precisely the scarcity of bitcoin that keeps the price high. As far as the "fairness" of bitcoin, it is totally fair to reward hard work and risk. If you were willing to take on the high risk of buying bitcoins in 2012 then you saw huge gains in profit. If you waited until today to see that it is working and that there is much less risk, you will see less upside. That is the way it works.
I have seen the fairness argument for years now. I remember when BTC reached $1. The forum filled up with talk of how unfair it is that some people made a bunch of money because they bought at $.50.

I think it's perfectly fine that those who have invested in bitcoins can make huge gains. That's a part of the game. It's when bitcoin is meant to become mainstream that it will become a problem. I don't think bitcoin can become mainstream because of the massive increase in value that it would result in.

byt411

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Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:55:28 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:36:59 AM

Aren't you just contradicting yourself? The economy grows year by year, and according to you, the newly mined Bitcoin will not impact that much.
Then why make that extra exist at all? Just keep it as it is now. Halvenings were designed because Bitcoin would slowly become mainstream, and the supply cannot be too much to make the value collapse.

As it is now the miners earned 25 bitcoins per block in the beginning and over time that value is decreased so that the total amount of bitcoins mined will be 21 million. That will perhaps make bitcoin too deflationary for mainstream adoption. By instead letting the 25 bitcoins per block remain constant as a mining reward, the value of bitcoin would become more stable in terms of inflation/deflation.

Again, I want to point out that it's probably not a good idea to test this on the real bitcoin block chain. Because that could make the price of bitcoin to collapse. It's just a thought experiment.

There are better alternatives to this, such as OKCoin's Bitcoin Futures, or locking Bitcoins with something else. That stabilizes the price, and isn't a change on the Bitcoin protocol at all.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:35:08 AM

Quote from: TwinWinNerD on August 05, 2014, 09:30:06 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:27:12 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on August 05, 2014, 09:10:36 AM

There is never a need to change the total. 21 million is an arbitrary number and the system would work if there were 16 Billion or only 33 bitcoins. If you understand bitcoin then you will understand why is is utter foolishness to change this number. It would gain nothing and severely hurt the price of bitcoin. I, for example, would divest at least 70% of my position.

I was suggesting that the miners would earn a fixed amount of bitcoins for every block. This means that there would be no upper limit. More and more bitcoins would be created over time without any upper limit. It would be inflationary but I think the value could remain fairly stable. It would be a deterministic and slow inflation. And the inflation would actually slow down year by year! Because percentage-wise there would be less added each year.

It's just a thought experiment. Too risky to try for real probably because the bitcoin value could collapse if doing a radical change like that.

But what would be the advantage of that?

Distribution will happen as the price rises anyway, no need to have unlimited inflation.

The inflation would actually become less and less every year. That would make the price stable. Not any of this to the moon craziness which would make a tiny percentage of the world's population super rich.

I have zero interest in an open ended production system. These would be worthless to me. It is precisely the scarcity of bitcoin that keeps the price high. As far as the "fairness" of bitcoin, it is totally fair to reward hard work and risk. If you were willing to take on the high risk of buying bitcoins in 2012 then you saw huge gains in profit. If you waited until today to see that it is working and that there is much less risk, you will see less upside. That is the way it works.
I have seen the fairness argument for years now. I remember when BTC reached $1. The forum filled up with talk of how unfair it is that some people made a bunch of money because they bought at $.50.

Anders

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Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:36:59 AM

Aren't you just contradicting yourself? The economy grows year by year, and according to you, the newly mined Bitcoin will not impact that much.
Then why make that extra exist at all? Just keep it as it is now. Halvenings were designed because Bitcoin would slowly become mainstream, and the supply cannot be too much to make the value collapse.

As it is now the miners earned 25 bitcoins per block in the beginning and over time that value is decreased so that the total amount of bitcoins mined will be 21 million. That will perhaps make bitcoin too deflationary for mainstream adoption. By instead letting the 25 bitcoins per block remain constant as a mining reward, the value of bitcoin would become more stable in terms of inflation/deflation.

Again, I want to point out that it's probably not a good idea to test this on the real bitcoin block chain. Because that could make the price of bitcoin to collapse. It's just a thought experiment.

TwinWinNerD

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The reason for newly minted blocks is distribution. The reason for blockhalvings is to not have a shock. The reason for a limited supply is that inflation is only helpful to few and bad for the masses.

byt411

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Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:30:11 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:15:08 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: jonanon on August 05, 2014, 10:00:20 AM

You also need to understand that if more coins were added it would completely ruin the entire concept.

Fiat is printed at will hence looking for something that you can own a portion of that can't be increased therefore diluting your holdings.

Common sense surely should tell you this.

Fiat currencies with the horrible fractional reserve banking scam actually has an accelerated inflation!

"For example: if 100 credits are created and loaned into the economy at 10% per year, at the end of the year 110 credits will be needed to pay the loan and extinguish the debt. However, since the additional 10 credits do not yet exist, they too must be borrowed into existence to pay off the interest on the previous loan. To some, this implies that the money supply must grow exponentially at the same rate as economic growth and compounding debt in order for the monetary system to remain solvent," -- http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Criticism_of_fractional_reserve_banking

With a fixed miner reward of 25 bitcoins per block the inflation of bitcoin would slow down as opposed to the fractional reserve acceleration of debt.

Yes, that is correct, but why should we have inflation at all?
The speed doesn't matter, but why should we have inflation? To devalue money? That doesn't make sense at all.

I'm not sure that it will be an inflation of bitcoin in terms of price. The overall economy grows year by year and the small amount of new bitcoins mined per year would perhaps make the price remain fairly stable instead of inflationary. As it is now bitcoin is too deflationary to become mainstream is my guess.

Aren't you just contradicting yourself? The economy grows year by year, and according to you, the newly mined Bitcoin will not impact that much.
Then why make that extra exist at all? Just keep it as it is now. Halvenings were designed because Bitcoin would slowly become mainstream, and the supply cannot be too much to make the value collapse.

Anders

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:15:08 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: jonanon on August 05, 2014, 10:00:20 AM

You also need to understand that if more coins were added it would completely ruin the entire concept.

Fiat is printed at will hence looking for something that you can own a portion of that can't be increased therefore diluting your holdings.

Common sense surely should tell you this.

Fiat currencies with the horrible fractional reserve banking scam actually has an accelerated inflation!

"For example: if 100 credits are created and loaned into the economy at 10% per year, at the end of the year 110 credits will be needed to pay the loan and extinguish the debt. However, since the additional 10 credits do not yet exist, they too must be borrowed into existence to pay off the interest on the previous loan. To some, this implies that the money supply must grow exponentially at the same rate as economic growth and compounding debt in order for the monetary system to remain solvent," -- http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Criticism_of_fractional_reserve_banking

With a fixed miner reward of 25 bitcoins per block the inflation of bitcoin would slow down as opposed to the fractional reserve acceleration of debt.

Yes, that is correct, but why should we have inflation at all?
The speed doesn't matter, but why should we have inflation? To devalue money? That doesn't make sense at all.

I'm not sure that it will be an inflation of bitcoin in terms of price. The overall economy grows year by year and the small amount of new bitcoins mined per year would perhaps make the price remain fairly stable instead of inflationary. As it is now bitcoin is too deflationary to become mainstream is my guess.

Satan666

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The love of fiat is the root of all good

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:14:39 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:06:31 AM

I have to say that that guy is completely insane.

So that's why ~~Google~~ the NSA recruited Ray Kurzweil as a Director of Engineering?

FTFY and yes.

byt411

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Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:14:39 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:06:31 AM

I have to say that that guy is completely insane.

So that's why Google recruited Ray Kurzweil as a Director of Engineering?

Google is controlled by the NSA, and naturally, they would recruit him. Also, that is a meaningless comment. We are talking about his views, not about anything else.

byt411

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Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: jonanon on August 05, 2014, 10:00:20 AM

You also need to understand that if more coins were added it would completely ruin the entire concept.

Fiat is printed at will hence looking for something that you can own a portion of that can't be increased therefore diluting your holdings.

Common sense surely should tell you this.

Fiat currencies with the horrible fractional reserve banking scam actually has an accelerated inflation!

"For example: if 100 credits are created and loaned into the economy at 10% per year, at the end of the year 110 credits will be needed to pay the loan and extinguish the debt. However, since the additional 10 credits do not yet exist, they too must be borrowed into existence to pay off the interest on the previous loan. To some, this implies that the money supply must grow exponentially at the same rate as economic growth and compounding debt in order for the monetary system to remain solvent," -- http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Criticism_of_fractional_reserve_banking

With a fixed miner reward of 25 bitcoins per block the inflation of bitcoin would slow down as opposed to the fractional reserve acceleration of debt.

Yes, that is correct, but why should we have inflation at all?
The speed doesn't matter, but why should we have inflation? To devalue money? That doesn't make sense at all.

Anders

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 10:06:31 AM

I have to say that that guy is completely insane.

So that's why Google recruited Ray Kurzweil as a Director of Engineering?

Anders

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: jonanon on August 05, 2014, 10:00:20 AM

You also need to understand that if more coins were added it would completely ruin the entire concept.

Fiat is printed at will hence looking for something that you can own a portion of that can't be increased therefore diluting your holdings.

Common sense surely should tell you this.

Fiat currencies with the horrible fractional reserve banking scam actually has an accelerated inflation!

"For example: if 100 credits are created and loaned into the economy at 10% per year, at the end of the year 110 credits will be needed to pay the loan and extinguish the debt. However, since the additional 10 credits do not yet exist, they too must be borrowed into existence to pay off the interest on the previous loan. To some, this implies that the money supply must grow exponentially at the same rate as economic growth and compounding debt in order for the monetary system to remain solvent," -- http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Criticism_of_fractional_reserve_banking

With a fixed miner reward of 25 bitcoins per block the inflation of bitcoin would slow down as opposed to the fractional reserve acceleration of debt.

byt411

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:56:34 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:50:49 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:49:15 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:47:03 AM

Erm... Since when is this world fair? Please face reality, nothing is fair. Bitcoin isn't designed for fairness. You're completely missing the point.

With information technology we have an opportunity to make the world fair. It not only can be done. It will be done.

No, it won't, unless you find a way to implant cells in everyone's brain that eliminates greed. It's human nature.
Nothing will ever be fair.

Say hello to unlimited resources: Ray Kurzweil and the Singularity - Lew Keilar -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9iYEUq9Vgo

Cool

I have to say that that guy is completely insane. A.I.s cannot be made to think for themselves, and Humans won't be connected to a cloud. You are obviously from the NSA. That's what they want to do to us, so that every aspect of our lives will be controlled by them. Ray Kurzweil is completely off his rocker.
You are right, that will create fairness, since we will all be turned into marionettes, ready to do our "master's" bidding, and be enslaved for eternity.

All this will do and make us all equal, which isn't a good thing. Humans will no longer have emotion. No thoughts. Nothing.
Essentially, we will be turned into robots.

jonanon

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Merit: 100

You also need to understand that if more coins were added it would completely ruin the entire concept.

Fiat is printed at will hence looking for something that you can own a portion of that can't be increased therefore diluting your holdings.

Common sense surely should tell you this.

Anders

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:50:49 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:49:15 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:47:03 AM

Erm... Since when is this world fair? Please face reality, nothing is fair. Bitcoin isn't designed for fairness. You're completely missing the point.

With information technology we have an opportunity to make the world fair. It not only can be done. It will be done.

No, it won't, unless you find a way to implant cells in everyone's brain that eliminates greed. It's human nature.
Nothing will ever be fair.

Say hello to unlimited resources: Ray Kurzweil and the Singularity - Lew Keilar -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9iYEUq9Vgo

Cool

JohnFromWIT

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Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:45:11 AM

Quote from: Kazimir on August 05, 2014, 09:40:08 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:38:00 AM

We can have a currency which is as fair as possible. Today's wealth is horrendously unfairly distributed. I'm afraid the same would happen with bitcoin if it became mainstream with the 21 million limit.

Better distribution of wealth cannot be obtained through Bitcoin, or any currency for that matter. The problem is not with the currency.

At least with Bitcoin we solve the problem of having a small elite of private companies with the exclusive privilege of creating money out of thin air.

But with bitcoin there is already a small number of people who have hoarded them. Most people hardly even know yet what Bitcoin is. So it would be unfair for ordinary people to be forced to buy bitcoins for a very high price in the future.

This is just dumb.
Don't idolize the BTC1. It increases in value as fast as BTC0.000475

byt411

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Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:52:39 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:48:41 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:47:26 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

wtf is your point, go use dogecoin if you want infinite coins, you wont change bitcoin 21m limit.

So you think bitcoin will become a mainstream currency with the 21 million limit? I doubt it will. Let's see what will happen.

Look, why wouldn't it? Bitcoin is infinitely divisible. I would assume that that is more than enough.
If you doubt that it will, you should immediately convert your assets into JokeCoin (< aka Dogecoin).

I actually took a look at Dogecoin. It seems fairly popular, but I doubt it's better than bitcoin. It seems more like a coin for fun than for serious business.

Correct, but it has the perfect concept you want, an coin with infinite supply, for no reason whatsoever. Just because their original block rewards failed.

Anders

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Activity: 126

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Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:48:41 AM

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:47:26 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

wtf is your point, go use dogecoin if you want infinite coins, you wont change bitcoin 21m limit.

So you think bitcoin will become a mainstream currency with the 21 million limit? I doubt it will. Let's see what will happen.

Look, why wouldn't it? Bitcoin is infinitely divisible. I would assume that that is more than enough.
If you doubt that it will, you should immediately convert your assets into JokeCoin (< aka Dogecoin).

I actually took a look at Dogecoin. It seems fairly popular, but I doubt it's better than bitcoin. It seems more like a coin for fun than for serious business.

byt411

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Anders on August 05, 2014, 09:49:15 AM

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:47:03 AM

Erm... Since when is this world fair? Please face reality, nothing is fair. Bitcoin isn't designed for fairness. You're completely missing the point.

With information technology we have an opportunity to make the world fair. It not only can be done. It will be done.

No, it won't, unless you find a way to implant cells in everyone's brain that eliminates greed. It's human nature.
Nothing will ever be fair.

Anders

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Quote from: byt411 on August 05, 2014, 09:47:03 AM

Erm... Since when is this world fair? Please face reality, nothing is fair. Bitcoin isn't designed for fairness. You're completely missing the point.

With information technology we have an opportunity to make the world fair. It not only can be done. It will be done.

Topic: Changing the 21 million bitcoin limit - page 2. (Read 3343 times)