I have heard this news a few times now. The company's investors also held a protest in front of the company's headquarters.
The company's stock has also dropped about 10 times and shows no sign of stopping.
EverGrand also has many investments in different countries in the real estate sector. If they declare bankruptcy, it could lead to a real estate market crash in Asia.
Topic: Chinese construction Mega-Bankruptcy. Evergrande about to crash for 355B - page 4. (Read 611 times)
September 19, 2021, 03:00:22 AM
September 18, 2021, 03:59:16 PM
This is also linked to the real estate market. Somehow, i keep hearing about this overheated real estate market in China akin to the Housing bubble which led to the 2008 crisis in USA. I have no love lost for China but at a time when the whole world is struggling, any sort of upheaval in the second largest economy of the world won't do any good to anyone. Especially in the backdrop of the pandemic and all the money printing that went on to support people and businesses out of job.
As far as a bailout is concerned, if the CCP judges that it is important enough to protect investor confidence, they'll do it without doubt. CCP has always supported businesses in one way or other. Most businesses in China are linked to the highest echelons of CCP so it is possible that they will bail it out before the shock can spread.
We are going to have to see how things evolve, we need to remember that a bankruptcy of a company as big as this one can create a domino effect which is exactly what happened with Lehman Brothers, and many of those that were deeply involved in the crisis have been very honest and they claimed the world economy was close to come to a complete halt, so while the circumstances are different I would say the economy is even on a worse shape now than the state it had back then and this could begin a chain reaction of bankruptcies, so it is important to see how this is solved and that it does not have big repercussions to other industries and countries. As far as a bailout is concerned, if the CCP judges that it is important enough to protect investor confidence, they'll do it without doubt. CCP has always supported businesses in one way or other. Most businesses in China are linked to the highest echelons of CCP so it is possible that they will bail it out before the shock can spread.
September 18, 2021, 07:52:21 AM
Wow, you remember things I've had to scratch my head a bit to see some foggy pictures, but yeah, I now remember making that comparison.
My memory still serves me very well, and I hope it stays that way
Of course, prices have changed so the number would be at around 16 billion now, if we assume all mining is done in China and that all the fees are net income, still 0.1% of the total GDP...
I think it’s very important to dispel the myths that some still believe, and that is that China is suffering some significant financial damage because it said NO to Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency, and the numbers are there to show us that’s exactly the case - $16 billion or 5 times more would not make any difference - nor would the conglomerate in question completely collapse, because China is too powerful to feel it as a significant blow.
I well remember the last crisis that began in 2008 and the years that followed, while the world was looking for straws of salvation, the Chinese went around the world buying everything that could be bought. Some EU countries remember very well who helped them when they asked the IMF for help.
During the European debt crisis, several European countries required the EU and International Monetary Fund bailouts. China assisted Europe by buying billions of euros' worth of junk Eurozone bonds; in particular from Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Some analysts suggested China was buying political influence in the EU but China maintains they are building strong trade ties and supporting the European economy so that trade issues can move ahead more smoothly.
September 18, 2021, 07:06:03 AM
I think that @stompix in some thread calculated how much was actually earned from crypto mining in China, which means block rewards and fees. You need to know that China's GDP is estimated to be as high as $14600.00 billion by the end of this year, and that to them in financial terms all the earnings from cryptocurrencies in any sense mean almost nothing.
Wow, you remember things I've had to scratch my head a bit to see some foggy pictures, but yeah, I now remember making that comparison.
If every single mined bitcoin would come back to China, including the fees, and by doing so we take care of the ROI miners have to achieve in order to pay the gear, thus we can ignore the numbers from sales of equipment and all the troubles there (chips are made by TSMC) the numbers would be at around 10 billion. Might sound much but in reality, it's almost nothing for such a country, the much blamed wet markets in China are part of an 18 billion industry of growing "wildlife" species for food. So, no way to classify it as harmful, it's more like a mosquito bite.
Of course, prices have changed so the number would be at around 16 billion now, if we assume all mining is done in China and that all the fees are net income, still 0.1% of the total GDP. But that's a rought estimate, mines burn energy, that energy costs coal, which could be exported, (or in case of China not imported), components are made by Taiwanese companies, and the chips are right now the most expensive part of a miner and so on and on. Besides, the coins mined are not owned by the CCP but by private miners, it's possible that Chinese miners haven't paid a dime in tax. Apple earning billions does not equal billions in tax in the government's coffers.
September 18, 2021, 05:25:59 AM
However, I do not think that it would be beneficial for them since it would mean losing a lot of money in the nation and giving it to other nations. I still do not understand why they banned mining neither, after all they were mining and making a lot of money, that is beneficial for china but they banned it for some reason. All in all I am quite happy that china doesn't hold too much power, that would be something very scary.
Although it seems to you and me that there is a lot of money at stake, this is not really the case when it comes to China. I think that @stompix in some thread calculated how much was actually earned from crypto mining in China, which means block rewards and fees. You need to know that China's GDP is estimated to be as high as $14600.00 billion by the end of this year, and that to them in financial terms all the earnings from cryptocurrencies in any sense mean almost nothing.
September 17, 2021, 03:00:32 PM
It is possible something similar is happening in the united states. Jeff Bezos may have been forced to resign from amazon.
Can you expand on that?
I have searched the internet and I don't see anything. I am quite surprised and I can see many reasons for it not to be so, since the political system of the USA and the USA are essentially different, but maybe if you explain the theory we can still see the logic behind it.
There's nothing to this, Bezos wasn't forced to resign. He resigned voluntarily to spend more time working on his other ventures, of which there are many but the biggest one is probably Blue Origin, his aerospace manufacturing and spaceflight company. Other ventures Bezos is involved with that he expects to spend more time on are his ownership of the Washington Post and Day 1 Fund.
Also, Bezos hasn't completely left the company, he's still the executive chairman, which means he will still be involved in the largest decisions at Amazon, he just won't be running the day to day as CEO.
September 17, 2021, 02:56:47 PM
This story is bad, and I think we still have to see the worst.
Apart from all the news you reported here, the thing is EVVE USD bonds are trading at 23/25 cents for a dollar falli further since last week.
Also I would say this is the worst time for the Party to have a bubble pop, right while raising the tension with Washington.
Apart from all the news you reported here, the thing is EVVE USD bonds are trading at 23/25 cents for a dollar falli further since last week.
Also I would say this is the worst time for the Party to have a bubble pop, right while raising the tension with Washington.
September 17, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
I would not speculate as to why they did it, but it is only important that they did it, and in fact did us a great service, because someone wanted to admit it or not, China has always been a hidden danger for Bitcoin - communist methods and human freedoms never could function together.
Do you truly believe that? It was a danger to the PRICE of Bitcoin, but Bitcoin was never in real danger from China. They banned it, but did it “die”? Can the CCP censor Bitcoin transactions after the “ban”? Never, and the Honey Badger don’t care. Plus communist methods is why Bitcoin should be used in China.
Although people mostly pay attention only to the price (which is logical because they are only interested in profit), China was a much bigger problem not only because of price manipulation, but also because there were those in the West (especially in the US) who thought that China has too much influence on mining, and that there is a lot of environmental pollution because they mainly use coal.
If none of these factors are present anymore, I think the overall picture that Bitcoin is controlled by China and its dirty industry will start to change. And as for censorship in China, I think they have brought it to the highest possible level, although any intelligent individual may try to be smarter than the system, but most are still afraid to oppose the government.
Whether true or not, Bitcoin without China will always be fine. Several times we have been lied to about China's influence on Bitcoin, but in fact it is not at all and Bitcoin is free from manipulation of the Chinese system from the start. We shouldn't be fooled by the stuff about China's restrictions on Bitcoin policy. It's all based on the mainstream media deliberately making a fuss in the Bitcoin market. We are still in the distant current without Chinese interference.
September 17, 2021, 12:03:25 PM
Although people mostly pay attention only to the price (which is logical because they are only interested in profit), China was a much bigger problem not only because of price manipulation, but also because there were those in the West (especially in the US) who thought that China has too much influence on mining, and that there is a lot of environmental pollution because they mainly use coal.
If none of these factors are present anymore, I think the overall picture that Bitcoin is controlled by China and its dirty industry will start to change. And as for censorship in China, I think they have brought it to the highest possible level, although any intelligent individual may try to be smarter than the system, but most are still afraid to oppose the government.
When you live in a dictatorship that would destroy you and all of your family and can make you disappear in a day, you do not have the courage to go against the dictator or people around him. China can ban all of crypto world, not just mining but everything related to crypto, even owning it, if they want to.If none of these factors are present anymore, I think the overall picture that Bitcoin is controlled by China and its dirty industry will start to change. And as for censorship in China, I think they have brought it to the highest possible level, although any intelligent individual may try to be smarter than the system, but most are still afraid to oppose the government.
However, I do not think that it would be beneficial for them since it would mean losing a lot of money in the nation and giving it to other nations. I still do not understand why they banned mining neither, after all they were mining and making a lot of money, that is beneficial for china but they banned it for some reason. All in all I am quite happy that china doesn't hold too much power, that would be something very scary.
September 17, 2021, 06:23:33 AM
I would not speculate as to why they did it, but it is only important that they did it, and in fact did us a great service, because someone wanted to admit it or not, China has always been a hidden danger for Bitcoin - communist methods and human freedoms never could function together.
Do you truly believe that? It was a danger to the PRICE of Bitcoin, but Bitcoin was never in real danger from China. They banned it, but did it “die”? Can the CCP censor Bitcoin transactions after the “ban”? Never, and the Honey Badger don’t care. Plus communist methods is why Bitcoin should be used in China.
Although people mostly pay attention only to the price (which is logical because they are only interested in profit), China was a much bigger problem not only because of price manipulation, but also because there were those in the West (especially in the US) who thought that China has too much influence on mining, and that there is a lot of environmental pollution because they mainly use coal.
I believe we can both agree that because of the design decisions made by the Core developers, China can’t influence Bitcoin whether it has influence on mining or not. BIP-148/UASF proved this.
Quote
If none of these factors are present anymore, I think the overall picture that Bitcoin is controlled by China and its dirty industry will start to change. And as for censorship in China, I think they have brought it to the highest possible level, although any intelligent individual may try to be smarter than the system, but most are still afraid to oppose the government.
But Bitcoin is always there, always censorship-resistant, and always waiting to be used. That’s the point.
September 17, 2021, 05:06:34 AM
I would not speculate as to why they did it, but it is only important that they did it, and in fact did us a great service, because someone wanted to admit it or not, China has always been a hidden danger for Bitcoin - communist methods and human freedoms never could function together.
Do you truly believe that? It was a danger to the PRICE of Bitcoin, but Bitcoin was never in real danger from China. They banned it, but did it “die”? Can the CCP censor Bitcoin transactions after the “ban”? Never, and the Honey Badger don’t care. Plus communist methods is why Bitcoin should be used in China.
Although people mostly pay attention only to the price (which is logical because they are only interested in profit), China was a much bigger problem not only because of price manipulation, but also because there were those in the West (especially in the US) who thought that China has too much influence on mining, and that there is a lot of environmental pollution because they mainly use coal.
If none of these factors are present anymore, I think the overall picture that Bitcoin is controlled by China and its dirty industry will start to change. And as for censorship in China, I think they have brought it to the highest possible level, although any intelligent individual may try to be smarter than the system, but most are still afraid to oppose the government.
September 17, 2021, 04:38:03 AM
Lehman Brothers went bankrupt with passives of 619B. Evergrande, a Chinese firm with ties to the CCP has admitted an insurmountable debt and has recently hired the same lawyers that prepared Lehman´s case for bankruptcy. 128 banks and 121 societies have claims against the company. The shockwaves may be felt through China and all the Asian region. The direct impact is around 2% of Chinese PIB and may cause more collapses.
Evergrande is a Real State / Construction company which works mostly in China and owns its own bank.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/14/china-property-giant-evergrande-admits-debt-crisis-as-protesters-besiege-hq
Evergrande is a Real State / Construction company which works mostly in China and owns its own bank.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/14/china-property-giant-evergrande-admits-debt-crisis-as-protesters-besiege-hq
Too big to fail is actually the contrary of what the reality is. When you grow too big then it is unexpected for you to keep going with just finances. Amazon or Apple or Tesla can keep on growing, why? Because they can sell stuff forever, specially Amazon and that is why I understand them growing bigger and bigger.
Obviously finance world is different, you could make as much money as you can from there, but eventually when you grow to a level where you have so much money, eventually the profits can't continue forever.
Let's assume that you make 2 billion dollars a year profit, if you keep doing that for 10 years people may consider you not great, they want you to make more and more, and eventually you go into more and more debt to build more and more real estates but eventually you will not find anyone to buy it, it is not a car, it is not a phone, it is a house, people tend to keep their houses and not buy many, most can't afford to, and certainly not in billions. This was basically expected to fail.
I believe you didn’t understand the real meaning/definition of “Too big to fail”. It is a description for a business that has grown too large, and has become very established in the system/economy that it’s failure will be disastrous to the system/economy. The CCP has not currently made an announcement of a bail out, but I believe it has no other solution. Newspapers say Evergrande is not too big too fail. “OK”.
September 17, 2021, 03:56:04 AM
This won't just affect the Chinese and Asian region but also the African regions since they might have some contracts in that place since China wants to expand it's influence in that region too. That's a lot of losses but I think that China will brush it off like a dust since they still have other companies out there.
Didn't know that they're already in Africa, what are they doing down there? That's a pretty far continent and I gotta say that I am slightly impressed that they dare touch the continent because it has an untapped potential but you're right that this losses might not hurt them too much. 
September 16, 2021, 03:45:23 PM
Lehman Brothers went bankrupt with passives of 619B. Evergrande, a Chinese firm with ties to the CCP has admitted an insurmountable debt and has recently hired the same lawyers that prepared Lehman´s case for bankruptcy. 128 banks and 121 societies have claims against the company. The shockwaves may be felt through China and all the Asian region. The direct impact is around 2% of Chinese PIB and may cause more collapses.
Evergrande is a Real State / Construction company which works mostly in China and owns its own bank.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/14/china-property-giant-evergrande-admits-debt-crisis-as-protesters-besiege-hq
Too big to fail is actually the contrary of what the reality is. When you grow too big then it is unexpected for you to keep going with just finances. Amazon or Apple or Tesla can keep on growing, why? Because they can sell stuff forever, specially Amazon and that is why I understand them growing bigger and bigger.Evergrande is a Real State / Construction company which works mostly in China and owns its own bank.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/14/china-property-giant-evergrande-admits-debt-crisis-as-protesters-besiege-hq
Obviously finance world is different, you could make as much money as you can from there, but eventually when you grow to a level where you have so much money, eventually the profits can't continue forever.
Let's assume that you make 2 billion dollars a year profit, if you keep doing that for 10 years people may consider you not great, they want you to make more and more, and eventually you go into more and more debt to build more and more real estates but eventually you will not find anyone to buy it, it is not a car, it is not a phone, it is a house, people tend to keep their houses and not buy many, most can't afford to, and certainly not in billions. This was basically expected to fail.
September 16, 2021, 07:32:14 AM
The real estate business is one among the most important drivers of china's growth the world accounts for about 29 percent of the country's total financial transactions if evergrand goes bankrupt it be the most important test of China's economic system within the previous couple of years Investors fear evergrand bankruptcy could have an impression on other developers. China's banking industry could even be in danger but China a really powerful country, will drop everything by signing agreements with various companies.
September 16, 2021, 06:45:49 AM
It seems that the Chinese have softened up a lot when things like this happen to them. I was somehow convinced that CP still keeps things under control and does not tolerate such incompetence, because how else to call such company management.
The CCP is a weird party, even their policies are weird when compared to our western way of thinking, they allow private enterprise to grow, they fuel their growth with money, they somehow let them run wild with foreign investment, some other times they impose policies or dismantle them all altogether, it's hard to find a pattern in their views especially since there is a lot of competition between provinces and a lot of finances at the province level, not controlled directly by the party, and even in the party itself, there are different groups.
I don't think that in most cases is because of incompetence, probably the cause is greed or desire to show off with numbers in billions.
They also had a real estate bubble prior to 2008, they have a lot of companies going bankrupt especially in
It is possible something similar is happening in the united states. Jeff Bezos may have been forced to resign from amazon.
Can you expand on that?I have searched the internet and I don't see anything.
If you haven't put on a tinfoil hat all your search will be in vain.
They banned it, but did it “die”? Can the CCP censor Bitcoin transactions after the “ban”? Never, and the Honey Badger don’t care. Plus communist methods is why Bitcoin should be used in China.
One hundred public execution of the traitors of the cultural revolution that are using cryptocurrencies to subvert the law and you will see the difference between not giving a damn about them and the real power of the CCP when it wants to do something about it.
September 16, 2021, 06:12:47 AM
Shower thought. Did China truly ban Bitcoin for more restrictive capital controls, because the government is expecting an economic crisis? OR it’s expecting to BRRRRR trillions of Yuan, and the CCP don’t want that extra cash to go to the Bitcoin market.
I would not speculate as to why they did it, but it is only important that they did it, and in fact did us a great service, because someone wanted to admit it or not, China has always been a hidden danger for Bitcoin - communist methods and human freedoms never could function together.
Do you truly believe that? It was a danger to the PRICE of Bitcoin, but Bitcoin was never in real danger from China. They banned it, but did it “die”? Can the CCP censor Bitcoin transactions after the “ban”? Never, and the Honey Badger don’t care. Plus communist methods is why Bitcoin should be used in China.
September 16, 2021, 05:21:32 AM
It's starting to happen more often, sometimes the fear of coming across something that is really not right but still being supported by top officials is keeping people from sending alarms, local politicians don't want anything bad to be discussed about anything in their province so they are more interested in silencing critics than fixing problems. HNA went down in an even worse way.
It seems that the Chinese have softened up a lot when things like this happen to them. I was somehow convinced that CP still keeps things under control and does not tolerate such incompetence, because how else to call such company management. Perhaps @Hydrogen is right when he says that capable people are being replaced by suitable political governance structures, which generally destroy everything they are involved in. This is not necessarily a problem of China alone, because the world is undoubtedly ruled by politically eligible people, not those with expertise and competencies.
If we remember George W. Bush who practically destroyed everything he touched in his life, and became the president of the most powerful country in the world, then it is clear to us how the world works - the last name is important, and which political party you belong to - everything else is irrelevant.
Shower thought. Did China truly ban Bitcoin for more restrictive capital controls, because the government is expecting an economic crisis? OR it’s expecting to BRRRRR trillions of Yuan, and the CCP don’t want that extra cash to go to the Bitcoin market.
I would not speculate as to why they did it, but it is only important that they did it, and in fact did us a great service, because someone wanted to admit it or not, China has always been a hidden danger for Bitcoin - communist methods and human freedoms never could function together.
September 16, 2021, 05:16:47 AM
I am reading today that Evergrande could seriously affect crypto markets because there are some connections with stablecoins like USDT Tether and USDC that have exposure to commercial papers,
even if they are not directly from Evergrande this could affect global markets of commercial papers.
Tether is holding billions of dollars in commercial papers and they are probably in top 10 holders for that, and USDC issuer Circle have 9% of assets in commercial papers.
This is much more serious than people think and shares of other Chinese property developers and banks continue falling.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/does-evergrande-s-300b-debt-crisis-pose-systemic-risk-to-crypto-industry
even if they are not directly from Evergrande this could affect global markets of commercial papers.
Tether is holding billions of dollars in commercial papers and they are probably in top 10 holders for that, and USDC issuer Circle have 9% of assets in commercial papers.
This is much more serious than people think and shares of other Chinese property developers and banks continue falling.
https://cointelegraph.com/news/does-evergrande-s-300b-debt-crisis-pose-systemic-risk-to-crypto-industry
September 16, 2021, 02:30:22 AM
As far as I can see, this is a matter for China and their banks, and I really doubt that the whole company will collapse just like that, and that the Chinese authorities will not do anything. There is speculation that the company rejects, but if it cannot remain operational and repay the debts - I do not see what is the other logical option.
The company offers debt repayment over a multi-year period, but it is speculated that it could go bankrupt by the end of this year - unfortunately, as always in such situations, the highest price is paid by small investors. Yet this situation hasn’t arisen recently, so I’m a little surprised that the Chinese authorities have allowed (and I don’t believe they didn’t know what was going on) the whole thing to escalate to this point.
The good thing about Bitcoin is that the Chinese have practically banned it (trading&mining), so I don't believe that bad news from China can be used for a new FUD.
Quote
Many analysts believe Evergrande will be forced to restructure its debt and possibly faces being dismantled under a government-orchestrated operation to ensure a soft landing that does not capsize the country’s bloated property market.
The company offers debt repayment over a multi-year period, but it is speculated that it could go bankrupt by the end of this year - unfortunately, as always in such situations, the highest price is paid by small investors. Yet this situation hasn’t arisen recently, so I’m a little surprised that the Chinese authorities have allowed (and I don’t believe they didn’t know what was going on) the whole thing to escalate to this point.
The good thing about Bitcoin is that the Chinese have practically banned it (trading&mining), so I don't believe that bad news from China can be used for a new FUD.
Shower thought. Did China truly ban Bitcoin for more restrictive capital controls, because the government is expecting an economic crisis? OR it’s expecting to BRRRRR trillions of Yuan, and the CCP don’t want that extra cash to go to the Bitcoin market.
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