Chinese miners rejecting transactions from the US? - page 6.

deisik

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Quote from: DooMAD on November 13, 2016, 05:26:06 PM

Please elaborate how you plan to identify all these US transactions in real time? I'm not in the US, so please list every single address I've ever been associated with so that I'm not charged more. According to kiklo, it's really easy

I don't know really. And that's the reason why I started this thread and openly asked about that in the OP. To be honest, the technical impossibility of such discrimination (based on IP, or wallet address, or anything else) is the only true reason why the Chinese miners might not raise the fees on a selective basis as an act of revenge even if Trump lives up to his promises and unleashes a trade war with China. All other arguments like irrationality of such actions, coercion by the government, lack of hashing power, etc are weak and can only somewhat limit the fee riot if things get serious. On the other hand, if things do get serious after all, the miners from China could still indiscriminately raise the fees for all...

What consequences would such events have?

kiklo

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iamnotback also sees the flaws in BTC, I suggest the rest of you research it , and make up your own minds. Wink

Quote from: iamnotback on November 13, 2016, 04:41:05 AM

Quote from: iamnotback on November 12, 2016, 07:24:55 AM

Seems I am banned from Reddit, because the following posts have been removed:

Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5cerbi/researchers_suggest_new_method_to_scale_bitcoin/d9x35zi/

Afaics, Byzcoin can't possibly fix the most fundamental flaw in Satoshi's design when block rewards come predominantly from transaction fees, which is that the transaction fees either decline to mining costs or the throughput must be limited (e.g. by block size) so that transaction fees must rise to those the larger valued transactions are willing to pay.

One might argue that some transactions are willing to pay a higher transaction fee to be included sooner in a block, yet without any restriction on throughput (e.g. block size), this merely means one has to pay a transaction fee that makes the marginal miner profitable. But there is no such fee, because the marginal miners aren't just one level of cost. Thus gradually the most marginal miners go bankrupt, which proceeds until the lowest cost miners control 51% of the network and can raise fees to what ever level the market will bear.

The marginal miners rejoin the network if the cartel raises the level of transaction fees accepted but this is only stable if there remains a 51% cartel to raise fees. Due to the economics of Satoshi's design (e.g. minority mining on the wrong block during propagation delay, selfish mining, and even stubborn mining), those with more hashrate earn more profit than their proportional hashrate should, thus the 51% cartel over time trends towards 100% and so as their percentage of the systemic hashrate rises, the cartel can raise transaction fees to higher levels up to what the market can bear. So eventually we will be right back at Visa and Mastercard levels of centralized control and fees.

The "greedy mining attacks" are essentially a manifestation of the same underlying economic problem which is that given no restriction on throughput, then game theory incentives cause transaction fees to decline to the mining costs. Byzcoin may fix some of these attacks, but it can't fix the fundamental problem with Satoshi's proof-of-work, because it is insoluble. And no, Monero didn't fix this problem as TPTB_need_war explained to ArticMine earlier this year.

I (as @AnonyMint) had pointed out back in 2013 that transaction fees are the Achilles heel of Satoshi's design.

Ultimately what this all means is that mathematically and microeconomically for Satoshi's design to survive, a cartel must control a monopoly on mining (e.g. 51% of the hashrate) so that it can dictate a level of fees which is profitable. This is potentially why the Chinese mining "cartel" has been afaik resisting block size increases, because at least this is more obfuscated and more immediate than a battle of attrition or 51% attack to rid the blockchain of miners not in the cartel for the purpose of increasing profit from transaction fees. And there may be other vested interests in preference for Lightning Networks.

There can't ever exist any solution for Satoshi's proof-of-work design that will prevent a devolution into a mining cartel.

The only way to improve on this might be to shift to a design which doesn't use proof-of-work with blocks.

Byzcoin is also flawed because the splitting of the fees between all of those in consensus block can be subverted by offering lower fees to transactions which pay a well-entrenched miner out-of-band, thus the blockchain doesn't know that those fees were supposed to be split up. Paul Sztorc is correct here, and Emin Gün Sirer is incorrect.

Emin Gün Sirer is trying to argue that other mines won't mine on the block (or will reject its transactions) which doesn't fully share fees, but there is no way to objectively determine this since the offending transactions can still include a small fee (that is shared) in addition to the (discounted!) fee paid in the side band. Also Emin Gün Sirer is referring to Bitcoin-NG there, but the discussion is really about Byzcoin. In Byzcoin a miner with for example 25% of the hashrate is going to be in the consensus group 25% of the time (i.e. 10 out of every 40 minutes approximately). It will be worthwhile for users to establish an account with this large miner and send an offending transaction when that miner is in the current consensus group (and send non-offending transactions the other 75% of the time, but note there may be another 10% miner offering the same and so then it is 35% of the time, etc).

So this means the minority miners are starved of income and go bankrupt. This is yet another example of why profitable proof-of-work will in every conceivable design variant always be a power vacuum winner-take-all non-equilibrium.

Sorry profitable proof-of-work can never be stable.

kiklo

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Quote from: leopard2 on November 13, 2016, 05:52:27 PM

Quote from: kiklo on November 13, 2016, 05:00:40 AM

Quote from: deisik on November 13, 2016, 04:55:29 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on November 13, 2016, 04:26:20 AM

How would they determine where the transaction originates?

Maybe, by web wallets from which the transaction is coming? I guess a lot of bitcoiners are using the Coinbase web wallet (I use it too, for the record) which is the US company, so the Chinese miners may just start rejecting all transactions that are coming from this wallet. I also suspect that a few other notable web wallets (Xapo anyone?) are also primarily the US companies...

There may also be American exchanges and mixers which could be heavily hit by this

All Exchanges keep track of your Name / Email Address /IP Address , even if you use a fake name and email, using cross reference techniques your location can be determined by your IP alone.
All China has to do is get an approved list of BTC address from the Chinese Exchanges and just block the rest.
EASY.

Cool

Huh? That does not break Bitcoin. It would just mean that blocked transactions are processed not in China but somewhere else.

It would mean that China is disconnecting itself from the BTC network, not the "rest"

Correct me if I'm wrong but blacklisting only works if the blacklisters control (almost) every block and (almost) every node Huh

I posted Numerous Links, look up 51% attack,
at no point would the over 51% miners disconnect their selves from the network , they stay connected , and block or approve your transactions based on their criteria alone. Even if you forked a new Block Chain , if you are still using ASICS, they can take that over too.
That is the Greatest Flaw of PoW coins. Wink

kiklo

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Quote from: DooMAD on November 13, 2016, 05:26:06 PM

Quote from: kiklo on November 13, 2016, 06:36:36 AM

1. Could the miners potentially make the transactions coming from the US substantially more expensive than all other transactions, or even totally discard them?
Easily thru approved address lists, any address not approved would be charged the higher rate.

That doesn't answer how you're going to target the US alone and not every other person on the planet. And you can't answer that because it isn't possible.

Quote from: kiklo on November 13, 2016, 05:00:40 AM

All Exchanges keep track of your Name / Email Address /IP Address , even if you use a fake name and email, using cross reference techniques your location can be determined by your IP alone.
All China has to do is get an approved list of BTC address from the Chinese Exchanges and just block the rest.
EASY.

And for those not using an exchange? You could still easily block half of China doing that. It's only "easy" if you don't stop and think it through to conclusion. Anyone in China could make a new address right now and move some funds to it without using an exchange. How are you adding this new address to the approved list? New addresses are created constantly. How are you going to catch them all whilst also making sure none of them are American?

Quote from: kiklo

Unless they proved they were in China or Paid to keep the address in the Approved List , it's transactions would be Blocked.
All New Addresses would have to be registered before being allowed to receive any BTC. Again Very Simple.

It is funny how such simple filters strike terror in your Hearts,
If any of you really trust China as much as you claim, don't worry about it. Cheesy

But for those of you that can actually think and see the Danger, Plan & Invest Accordingly. Wink

FYI:
51% Security Flaw is Real , Research it or ignore it , your Choice.

Unlike others in these Forums Satoshi did not Lie.

leopard2

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Quote from: kiklo on November 13, 2016, 05:00:40 AM

Quote from: deisik on November 13, 2016, 04:55:29 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on November 13, 2016, 04:26:20 AM

How would they determine where the transaction originates?

Maybe, by web wallets from which the transaction is coming? I guess a lot of bitcoiners are using the Coinbase web wallet (I use it too, for the record) which is the US company, so the Chinese miners may just start rejecting all transactions that are coming from this wallet. I also suspect that a few other notable web wallets (Xapo anyone?) are also primarily the US companies...

There may also be American exchanges and mixers which could be heavily hit by this

All Exchanges keep track of your Name / Email Address /IP Address , even if you use a fake name and email, using cross reference techniques your location can be determined by your IP alone.
All China has to do is get an approved list of BTC address from the Chinese Exchanges and just block the rest.
EASY.

Cool

Huh? That does not break Bitcoin. It would just mean that blocked transactions are processed not in China but somewhere else.

It would mean that China is disconnecting itself from the BTC network, not the "rest"

Correct me if I'm wrong but blacklisting only works if the blacklisters control (almost) every block and (almost) every node Huh

John999

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Quote from: franky1 on November 13, 2016, 01:30:06 PM

Quote from: John999 on November 13, 2016, 12:48:46 PM

The problem is when mining is centralized beyond a certain point in one single country, it becomes worrying. I remember some time ago most of the mining power was in Ukraine (with Ghash.io I believe) and people were concerned (rightfully) with that. Nothing bad happened but it's better to anticipate potential problems than to burry one's head into the sand.

Ghash was one server with 51%

what these "chinese screamers" are doing is combining 5 separate pools, maintained in 15 offices in different countries, across 20 servers all because the many owners are chinese..
even if those owners may be sunning it up in pattaya thailand or travelling the world or organising events in america..

some how these 5 separate pools are all suddenly colluding and all on their knee's getting whipped by the chinese goverment.

its like they think its all run under one single warehouse..
they dont understand the basic technicals.

Stop pretending the majority of the hashing power is not located in China. Everybody knows it is.

Doamader

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If China just try to control chinese farmers the result will be a terrible lost for bitcoin world, as till the moment no one controls it there are private big farmers into bitcoin mining process, allowing or getting control over those farmers will mean a dead for bitcoin, soo i really doubt this will happen, and if this happens its almost a sure that bitcoin may die or be replaced by other crypto coin.

bitdrafter

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China is once again a (Bitcoin) Superpower !

DooMAD

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Leave no FUD unchallenged

Quote from: kiklo on November 13, 2016, 06:36:36 AM

1. Could the miners potentially make the transactions coming from the US substantially more expensive than all other transactions, or even totally discard them?
Easily thru approved address lists, any address not approved would be charged the higher rate.

That doesn't answer how you're going to target the US alone and not every other person on the planet. And you can't answer that because it isn't possible.

Quote from: kiklo on November 13, 2016, 05:00:40 AM

All Exchanges keep track of your Name / Email Address /IP Address , even if you use a fake name and email, using cross reference techniques your location can be determined by your IP alone.
All China has to do is get an approved list of BTC address from the Chinese Exchanges and just block the rest.
EASY.

And for those not using an exchange? You could still easily block half of China doing that. It's only "easy" if you don't stop and think it through to conclusion. Anyone in China could make a new address right now and move some funds to it without using an exchange. How are you adding this new address to the approved list? New addresses are created constantly. How are you going to catch them all whilst also making sure none of them are American?

Quote from: deisik on November 13, 2016, 04:59:43 PM

Further, you seem to address only the points which you find easiest to challenge. What about the case when the majority of Chinese miners decide to retaliate by raising the fees on certain transactions entirely on their own (which I spoke of earlier)? But please don't speak about being rational since in that very case it will be perfectly rational to raise the fees for a certain group of Bitcoin users from an economic point of view...

I did address that:

Quote from: DooMAD on November 13, 2016, 04:33:06 PM

Then they're raising the fees for everyone, not just the US. There isn't a practical way to single out or target the US alone.

Please elaborate how you plan to identify all these US transactions in real time? I'm not in the US, so please list every single address I've ever been associated with so that I'm not charged more. According to kiklo, it's really easy.

deisik

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Quote from: DooMAD on November 13, 2016, 04:33:06 PM

Quote from: DimensionZ on November 13, 2016, 10:25:30 AM

This topic is bordering on science fiction Grin

How can the Chinese miners and pools filter out USA traffic and deny foreign transactions? Is this even possible to segregate an entire country or continent from the Blockchain?

And even before we even reach that stage, what difficulty would be involved in the Chinese government physically tracking down the owners of all this hashpower before attempting to bend them to their will? There's likely a significant number of people involved. And how would they prevent word of this getting out, giving the community a warning in advance, if it was happening? Not exactly the easiest thing to keep quiet on the internet, again considering so many participants. Someone's bound to spill the beans.

Pure fantasy

There are only a few major mining pools to deal with. So I don't think that the Chinese government would need to track down every individual miner. Besides, I don't really think that mining pools in China actually consist only of a huge number of small individual miners. I rather see these pools as big mining farms, not pools in the strict sense of the term as it is used in Bitcoin mining. Further, you seem to address only the points which you find easiest to challenge. What about the case when the majority of Chinese miners decide to retaliate by raising the fees on certain transactions entirely on their own (which I spoke of earlier)? But please don't speak about being rational since in that very case it will be perfectly rational to raise the fees for a certain group of Bitcoin users from an economic point of view...

Governments are doing this every other day, so why should ordinary people not do essentially the same, though in a somewhat reverse way?

DooMAD

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Quote from: DimensionZ on November 13, 2016, 10:25:30 AM

This topic is bordering on science fiction Grin

How can the Chinese miners and pools filter out USA traffic and deny foreign transactions? Is this even possible to segregate an entire country or continent from the Blockchain?

And even before we even reach that stage, what difficulty would be involved in the Chinese government physically tracking down the owners of all this hashpower before attempting to bend them to their will? There's likely a significant number of people involved. And how would they prevent word of this getting out, giving the community a warning in advance, if it was happening? Not exactly the easiest thing to keep quiet on the internet, again considering so many participants. Someone's bound to spill the beans.

Pure fantasy.

Quote from: deisik on November 13, 2016, 01:40:37 PM

They might not reject these transactions altogether, they might just increase the fees exactly by the amount that Trump sets his protective tariffs to for the Chinese goods exported to the US markets, i.e. accept certain transactions only if they have a high enough fee.

Then they're raising the fees for everyone, not just the US. There isn't a practical way to single out or target the US alone. Cease these misconceptions about the superpowers you supposedly get with enough hashrate. It clearly doesn't work how you think it does.

MingLee

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I'd be surprised if the Chinese miners keep something like this up for long, or at least anything further than what they've done so far. There isn't really a reason for them to block them aside from just being annoying, and turning Bitcoin into a political tool is against everyone's best interests.

franky1

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i have to quote someone from another topic that the OP will trust to understand the point of this whole topic

due to the fact there is no chinese collusion.
due to the fact its all hypothetical doomsday theory not even backed by rational stats

Quote from: deisik on November 13, 2016, 02:16:30 PM

That's why this discussion makes no sense as such and will take wrong direction every time

i hope the OP listens to the person i just quoted
(himself)

outatime1

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I;m not sure that bitcoin has a big role in the US economy. I don't think this would have a large impact on the US since bitcoin is worldwide but still not accepted by the mainstream.

John999

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Quote from: franky1 on November 13, 2016, 11:29:45 AM

you singled out the chinese.. rather than any particular pool.
you have no shown proof that a nation has done this. or a particular pool that might have done this.

if you however mentioned a pool by name, rather then talking about a nation. then you would sound more rational in your theories

The problem is when mining is centralized beyond a certain point in one single country, it becomes worrying. I remember some time ago most of the mining power was in Ukraine (with Ghash.io I believe) and people were concerned (rightfully) with that. Nothing bad happened but it's better to anticipate potential problems than to burry one's head into the sand.

deisik

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Quote from: Kprawn on November 13, 2016, 01:19:25 PM

The Miners are not mining to dominate the world, they are mining to make profits. The two biggest users of Bitcoin is the USA and China at the

moment, why would they stop accepting tx's from US users, and cut their profits in half, and possibly become unsustainable? Even if this was

possible, it would push business into the pockets of other nations/global miners. Grin

They might not reject these transactions altogether, they might just increase the fees exactly by the amount that Trump sets his protective tariffs to for the Chinese goods exported to the US markets, i.e. accept certain transactions only if they have a high enough fee. If your country has been openly accused with stealing jobs ("They're using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China"), would you be quite happy with that? When, in fact, it was the American companies which moved their production to China in the first place. Would you quite like it when your country has been mentioned along with the Islamic State ("We've got to deal with ISIS. We've got to deal with China")?

What does China have to do with ISIS after all?

franky1

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Quote from: John999 on November 13, 2016, 12:48:46 PM

The problem is when mining is centralized beyond a certain point in one single country, it becomes worrying. I remember some time ago most of the mining power was in Ukraine (with Ghash.io I believe) and people were concerned (rightfully) with that. Nothing bad happened but it's better to anticipate potential problems than to burry one's head into the sand.

Ghash was one server with 51%

what these "chinese screamers" are doing is combining 5 separate pools, maintained in 15 offices in different countries, across 20 servers all because the many owners are chinese..
even if those owners may be sunning it up in pattaya thailand or travelling the world or organising events in america..

some how these 5 separate pools are all suddenly colluding and all on their knee's getting whipped by the chinese goverment.

its like they think its all run under one single warehouse..
they dont understand the basic technicals.

RGBKey

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Quote from: Kprawn on November 13, 2016, 01:19:25 PM

The Miners are not mining to dominate the world, they are mining to make profits. The two biggest users of Bitcoin is the USA and China at the

moment, why would they stop accepting tx's from US users, and cut their profits in half, and possibly become unsustainable? Even if this was

possible, it would push business into the pockets of other nations/global miners. Grin

That's a good point, if they do decide to start picking and choosing then it would quickly turn into a very bad situation for Bitcoin, meaning their large operations would be a bunch of useless hardware.

Kprawn

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The Miners are not mining to dominate the world, they are mining to make profits. The two biggest users of Bitcoin is the USA and China at the

moment, why would they stop accepting tx's from US users, and cut their profits in half, and possibly become unsustainable? Even if this was

possible, it would push business into the pockets of other nations/global miners. Grin

deisik

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Quote from: OnkelPaul on November 13, 2016, 11:40:06 AM

Apart from the topic, it is actually not really clear what percentage of the global hashing power is controlled by chinese miners, and which of those could possibly be coerced by the chinese government to refuse to mine such transactions (if they can reliably be identified as originating from the U.S.A. at all). Pools might not get away with such a change - as a pool miner, you can switch pools relatively quickly if you don't like their behavior, making the pool irrelevant in a short time. Operators of actual mining hardware within China would be more susceptible to such a coercion, but even though they control quite some mining power, they would most likely only cause some delays in transaction processing

I think it is safe to assume that they have enough hashing power to affect the majority of transactions if they choose so. This is not really a question of whether they control over 51% of Bitcoin hashing power (personally, I think they control substantially more than that), since even 30% could potentially make unbearable the lives of those whose transactions get rejected or postponed. Regarding the coercion by the Chinese government, I don't really think they will have to coerce anyone. As stated in the OP, rejecting certain transactions will be a retaliation of sorts, so the government may have only not to object to miners retaliating on their own in case Trump does really decide to start a tariff war. That's why the issues raised in the opening post might have substance after all. I won't forget how in July, 2015, thousands of unconfirmed transactions got stuck in queue (metaphorically speaking) with lots of new blocks containing only one transaction. Some euphemistically called it "testing Bitcoin limits" later...

Now try to tell me that there is no collusion between miners

Quote from: OnkelPaul on November 13, 2016, 11:40:06 AM

So unless we have hard evidence that a significant percentage of miners implement policies that discriminate against some group of bitcoin users, I would file this concern under "What If?". There are probably a dozen "What If" posts each week on BCT, and it just does not make sense to act on them. One should probably look at the more realistic scenarios and think about possible workarounds, but worrying about the rather unlikely cases won't help much

I've worked with a few Chinese businessmen as an interpreter, and I have no illusion that they will retaliate, with or without coercion

Topic: Chinese miners rejecting transactions from the US? - page 6. (Read 7738 times)