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Topic: Chinese Miners Revolt, Announces Plan to Hard Fork to Classic - page 8. (Read 6911 times)

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

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Terminated.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 04:14:41 PM

Yes, Luke-jr. No, I didn't know about F2Pool. Link?

I think they violated it a day later mining a Classic block. I'll update the post if I find the link.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 04:14:41 PM

Regardless, the agreement is either valid and binding, or it's not. If it's not, the miners are free to do whatever they wish, and this whole debate is pointless.

It matters. People who attack Luke-jr for 'trying' to create a proposal are heavily biased if it was already broken.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 04:14:41 PM

If you don't code, your "objective observation" re. coding abilities of others is what's called an "uneducated opinion," and, as such, ain't worth much more than my cat's. My cat don't code.

So you can draw a conclusion of my 'coding abilities' based on not-seeing any of my code? Interesting story.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 04:14:41 PM

As far as "bias" goes, your bias on this issue is well-known.

No it is not. What nonsense are you talking about? I have no connection to any developer regardless of whether Core or Classic/other.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

I would value an opinion of a surgeon much higher than that of a garbage collector, if the topic is surgery. Vice-versa if the topic is collecting garbage.

Fine, Core has surgeons and Classic has garbage collectors. I get it.

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 04:29:51 PM

These bandits have the ability to stop the train, kill all the riders and destroy the train.

What bandits?
That is how I see Core.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:39:08 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

You have proven to be a dumbshit, as well it seems.

I'm arguing not to tell someone how to do their job.
Chinese Miner's are telling the Core Devs that they don't know what they are doing.

Well that's where the problem is, a misunderstanding.
No, the miners aren't telling the devs "that they don't know what they are doing." What they're telling them is they're not doing what they *promised to do*.
The interests of the miners are not the same as the interests of Core devs, see?

I'll give you an analogy, show you what I mean:
Let's say Core devs are building a railroad, and drawing pay from Mayor Mccheese.
The railroad can go through the plains, which will take it right through Hamburglar's Town, or it can go over the mountains, which would take it right through The city of Mccheese.

Now, many would argue that it makes more sense to build the railroad on the plains, because no need to blast. And many will tell you just the opposite, that the mountain route is better, because shorter.
Both are not wrong. But guess which way the railroad's gonna go tho?
See where this is going?

What if in your analogy there are bandits and blockades in the plains.
These bandits have the ability to stop the train, kill all the riders and destroy the train.
The mountain doesn't have any bandits since it is harder for them to perform their attack.

Do you still build through the plains knowing that?

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: rizzlarolla on June 30, 2016, 04:21:02 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 04:10:43 PM

I already understand all this.
I am arguing that they do not. I argue they don't know anything about how any of that works.

Get a grip boy.

Your argument is pretty thin.

Calling me a boy is very offensive to me.
Are you saying you are superior to me?
Lol!

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 04:10:43 PM

I already understand all this.
I am arguing that they do not. I argue they don't know anything about how any of that works.

Get a grip boy.

Your argument is pretty thin.

PorkUsher

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: Lauda on June 30, 2016, 03:54:51 PM

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

They rejected the validity of the agreement outright.

Are you referring to the recent statement by Luke-Jr? Do you know that someone had already broken the agreement (was it F2Pool? I can't remember correctly).

Yes, Luke-jr. No, I didn't know about F2Pool. Link?
Regardless, the agreement is either valid and binding, or it's not. If it's not, the miners are free to do whatever they wish, and this whole debate is pointless.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

Try to do better than "my dad's smarter than your dad," or don't bother.

False analogy. That's an opinion due to subjective bias which is not the case here. This is an objective observation based on what I've seen so far.

If you don't code, your "objective observation" re. coding abilities of others is what's called an "uneducated opinion," and, as such, ain't worth much more than my cat's. My cat don't code.
As far as "bias" goes, your bias on this issue is well-known.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

I have not seen a single line of your code, so your opinion is a bit suspect.

So because you haven't seen 'my code', my opinion is invalidated (or 'suspect')? That is horrible logic, as it would invalidate your own opinion and the opinions of "users" who share your 'view' as well.

No, there's nothing wrong with my logic.
I would value an opinion of a surgeon much higher than that of a garbage collector, if the topic is surgery. Vice-versa if the topic is collecting garbage.
But you're telling me that both are just as good?

@AgentofCoin https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15425353

krumblez

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Chickens will rule the world one day.

The discredit and derailing is strong with the OP. gg.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: pogress on June 30, 2016, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

Maybe the miners should stick to mining, is my point.

Sure, but your missing the fact the miners have right to choose what client and what changes to activate. They can merge the code they like or use any clone of Bitcoin repository or whatever. Most devs are miners as well, or at least were at one point in time. Bitcoin and all voting is based on proof of work, not on github/bitcoin - but miners are free to use and run code from this place if they choose to, but it is not required.

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 03:40:38 PM

It's simply how Bitcoin works at the protocol level, succinctly described by satoshi in the white paper. The protocol, by itself, doesn't decide right or wrong, its participants do, and they vote with their CPU's (or influence those that do by buying or selling on the market.)

Nice to see someone understand how Bitcoin works.

I already understand all this.

My point is they think that the Core Devs are currently incorrect. They are rumored of agreeing to a proposal to switch to Classic.
Those are separate devs (from Core) with a fundamentally different ideologically view point on what makes Bitcoin/BTC valuable.

Are you sure the miner's understand that? Their proposal seems to think that core devs just shuffle over to classic.

What I'm saying is: Do the Chinese Miner's fully understand the situation and the potential future outcome?
I am arguing that they do not. I argue they don't know anything about how any of that works.
They only know what they know about mining. Their move to classic could neuter their future profits.

AliceGored

member

Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:55:23 PM

Re: Voting... like it or not, this is Bitcoin:

A market is a manifestation of real sentiment that is comprised of people putting their own wealth on the line. Bitcoin's entire incentive structure is based on free markets and rational economic behavior.

Maybe one could create an altcoin with a different mechanism, like "Proof of strong uncontentious consensus among Core developers"?

pogress

member

Activity: 96

Merit: 10

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

Maybe the miners should stick to mining, is my point.

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 03:40:38 PM

Nice to see someone understand how Bitcoin works.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 03:40:38 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 02:53:17 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 02:21:44 PM

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 02:08:25 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 01:59:06 PM

I would not be surprised if this turns out to be true.
The Chinese operators of these mining pools do not understand the simplest things.
They may be able to buy and/or build more mining units to increase their hashing capacity
and out compete all others, but when it comes to anything else Bitcoin, they are total dumbshits.

If the Chinese Miners want to switch to Classic or anything other, they should be prepared to
take over and be singularly responsible for all future programming for that fork.
It is very likely a decent amount of Devs will walk off if they do this.

If they start setting up and attempt this fork, they better have a better plan then what is proposed.

It is contingent that the Core team stays and works on Classic, even though Classic is controlled
and maintained by totally different Devs. Do the Chinese Miners even understand that simple thing?

1MB4EVA KeccakCoin or Good Ol' BTC with greater throughput... hrm, tough choice.

Your arguing that the fact that they can make that vote a reality, that it transforms to the right choice?

That is total dumb shit thinking.
If majority of people vote to destroy the moon, then it's a good decision by your reasoning.

Great thinking there. Bright future ahead. Roll Eyes

*You're

I simply posted satoshi's description of Bitcoin's consensus mechanism. You're the one who equated Bitcoin with higher throughput akin to "destroying the moon".

Miners will face the consequence or reward of their decision via the exchange rate. As the price shot up near $40 upon hearing this rumor... the market may disagree with your sentiment.

If you disagree with miner consensus, you will remain completely free to dump your coins or move to an altcoin more in line with your philosophy.

I didn't equate "higher throughput" to "destroying the moon".

You did it via an (somewhat inept) analogy. I didn't make the analogy, you did.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

I provided an example to my prior statement: "Your arguing that the fact that they
can make that vote a reality, that it transforms to the right choice?"

*You're
It's simply how Bitcoin works at the protocol level, succinctly described by satoshi in the white paper. The protocol, by itself, doesn't decide right or wrong, its participants do, and they vote with their CPU's (or influence those that do by buying or selling on the market.)

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

So what you are saying I said is pretty out of context. I'm not against "higher throughput", and never said to be.

The miners are trying to achieve higher throughput, so your flailing about over this seems to indicate otherwise.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

If the miner's do this, I will and sure others will buy into an altcoin that is in line with the original Bitcoin philosophy.

And I will buy more BTC as they are solving an important issue that has been repeatedly stalled and blocked by Core technicians. To free minds, and free markets!

It was not an analogy with throughput, I was making a different point on voting, but that doesn't seem to matter to you.
Nothing seems to matter to you other than the markets it seems.

Hopefully Bitcoin has reached to point that it will be able to withstand the assault that is going to come about from this move.
Sometimes I wonder whether people like you are a real person with a true belief or a government agency just trying to weaken Bitcoin.

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

They rejected the validity of the agreement outright.

Are you referring to the recent statement by Luke-Jr? Do you know that someone had already broken the agreement (was it F2Pool? I can't remember correctly).

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

Try to do better than "my dad's smarter than your dad," or don't bother.

False analogy. That's an opinion due to subjective bias which is not the case here. This is an objective observation based on what I've seen so far.

Quote from: PorkUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:46:27 PM

I have not seen a single line of your code, so your opinion is a bit suspect.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: rizzlarolla on June 30, 2016, 03:42:57 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

You have proven to be a dumbshit, as well it seems.

I disagree. Oh, I get it now, that is why you call myself and the Chinese miners dumb shits.
Your superior to myself and the Chinese miners.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

Maybe the miners should stick to mining, is my point.

Phew, why didn't you just say.

I'm sorry I didn't make it more simple for you sooner.

PorkUsher

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: Lauda on June 30, 2016, 03:32:26 PM

Quote from: BeadUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:24:01 PM

It is. If they keep trusting Core devs to do what they promised, they're gonna lose a shitload of money. And that's why this is happening right now.

Wrong. The people who attended the HK meeting have done nothing that violates their "agreement" yet. It was well known that the people were acting as individuals and could in no way guarantee that the presented HF (not yet) would be merged into Core.

They rejected the validity of the agreement outright.

Quote from: BeadUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:24:01 PM

Can't do much worse.

Classic developers are like high school programmers in comparison to the people working on Core.

Try to do better than "my dad's smarter than your dad," or don't bother. I have not seen a single line of your code, so your opinion is a bit suspect.

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

You have proven to be a dumbshit, as well it seems.

I disagree. Oh, I get it now, that is why you call myself and the Chinese miners dumb shits.
Your superior to myself and the Chinese miners.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

Maybe the miners should stick to mining, is my point.

Phew, why didn't you just say.

AliceGored

member

Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 02:53:17 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 02:21:44 PM

Quote from: AliceGored on June 30, 2016, 02:08:25 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 01:59:06 PM

1MB4EVA KeccakCoin or Good Ol' BTC with greater throughput... hrm, tough choice.

I didn't equate "higher throughput" to "destroying the moon".

You did it via an (somewhat inept) analogy. I didn't make the analogy, you did.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

I provided an example to my prior statement: "Your arguing that the fact that they
can make that vote a reality, that it transforms to the right choice?"

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

So what you are saying I said is pretty out of context. I'm not against "higher throughput", and never said to be.

The miners are trying to achieve higher throughput, so your flailing about over this seems to indicate otherwise.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:14:09 PM

If the miner's do this, I will and sure others will buy into an altcoin that is in line with the original Bitcoin philosophy.

And I will buy more BTC as they are solving an important issue that has been repeatedly stalled and blocked by Core technicians. To free minds, and free markets!

PorkUsher

newbie

Activity: 27

Merit: 0

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:30:26 PM

You have proven to be a dumbshit, as well it seems.

I'm arguing not to tell someone how to do their job.
Chinese Miner's are telling the Core Devs that they don't know what they are doing.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: BeadUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:24:01 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:19:47 PM

Quote from: BeadUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:10:26 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:00:39 PM

Are you arguing that the Miners are superior to the Devs here?

Superior to which devs, Core or Classic? Do you not see how the Miners' interests may be different from ~~Blockstream's~~ Core devs?

Do you not see that the Miner's future is contingent on the Core Devs continuing to work on Bitcoin into the future?

It is. If they keep trusting Core devs to do what they promised, they're gonna lose a shitload of money. And that's why this is happening right now.

Quote

You seriously think the Classic devs will be able to handle it all on their own?

Can't do much worse.

Quote

Do you really care about the future of Bitcoin, or do you just care about winning your sides argument?

Questions like this that are less than constructive. Why are you asking me this? How would my answering in the positive or negative alter the facts?

It is pretty clear you are concerned with financial growth for bitcoin and I am concerned with making Bitcoin stronger through resistance.
I argue that the financial growth you want and hope for will never come about from straying from the reasoning of Bitcoin's creation.

Bitcoin was not created as a quick rich scheme.
If Miner's are losing money, it is because they expanded too quickly.
Mass adoption is still 10 years out. Build it and they will come is a myth.

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: BeadUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:24:01 PM

It is. If they keep trusting Core devs to do what they promised, they're gonna lose a shitload of money. And that's why this is happening right now.

Quote from: BeadUsher on June 30, 2016, 03:24:01 PM

Can't do much worse.

Classic developers are like high school programmers in comparison to the people working on Core.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:19:47 PM

Do you have guarantees that Core Devs will continue to participate after such move?

I'm certain that it is likely that most of them would abandon their 'public' work for Bitcoin. Would you not do the same if you got 'stabbed in the back' after this much time?

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: rizzlarolla on June 30, 2016, 03:23:26 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 03:00:39 PM

Quote from: rizzlarolla on June 30, 2016, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 01:59:06 PM

Quote from: rizzlarolla on June 30, 2016, 02:07:56 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 01:59:06 PM

I would not be surprised if this turns out to be true.

I agree. Or becomes true.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on June 30, 2016, 01:59:06 PM

The Chinese operators
...do not understand the simplest things.
...they are total dumbshits.
..,even understand that simple thing?

I disagree. What makes you so superior over the Chinese miners?

I didn't say I was superior, I just said they are dumb shits and don't understand simple things.

Ok, but your superior to dumb shits that don't understand simple things, or not?
Just saying.

Superiority is irreverent. I can call someone a moron and not claim to be superior to them.
It is possible I am a dumbshit as to things that I am unaware of, but the miners know of.
Does that make them superior to me now?

I think what the Chinese Miners are rumored to have agreed to in secret is a major dumbshit move.

Are you arguing that the Miners are superior to the Devs here?

I don't really see how you can call someone a moron, without the implication you are better than a moron. = superior.
So the miners "know of" now? I thought you said they do not understand the simplest things.
In my opinion, they probably are superior to you on this issue.
I was just saying. Just my opinion. obviously we wont agree here.

Ok, dumb shit "move" iyo. (not quite the same as "dumb shit Chinese miners, is it?)
I accept your opinion on that, even though my opinion is opposite.
It was so secret, I could predict it.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/core-have-been-derelict-in-their-duties-1410211

"Are you arguing that the Miners are superior to the Devs here?"
Oh well, I wasn't. Are you arguing the opposite?

You have proven to be a dumbshit, as well it seems.

I'm arguing not to tell someone how to do their job.
Chinese Miner's are telling the Core Devs that they don't know what they are doing.
So by your reasoning, the Miner's think they are superior to the Core Devs.
So by that reasoning, the Miner's are calling the Core Devs dumbshits. Lol.

Maybe the miners should stick to mining, is my point.