Topic: Closed - page 4. (Read 8662 times)

ASP.NET is precompiled, so it will always be faster than php.

You don't need to spend any money up front when developing in .NET technologies.  You can use encryption on Azure, and scale as you need to.

http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/

We should not be discussing about languages here, nor should we discuss about frameworks.

There are several "camps" out there. Each of those believes, their approach is the true way, and as such is inherently secure, scalable, easy to write easy to maintain and so on. While, of course, ASP.NET, Java/JBoss, RoR, Grails, .... is an outright plain idiotic thing to do.

At the start of an successful undertaking, in most of all cases there is either one or both of the following:

• a group of people knowing each other. They share a common mindset, and when they are developers, they all belong to one "camp" and know hot to get things done. If you start this way, then learn to deal with the weaknesses of the given technology stack, but stick to it.
• otherwise, someone proceeding in a knowingly and mature fashion, keeping out quarrels and power play, setting a clear direction for the work, systematically addressing each of the relevant concerns, but doing so in a level-headed fashion, not overdoing anything.

Can't agree more!


Especially for security, when we're entering a realm of "serious business", the key point is not to build counter measures against every conceivable thread, but rather to be able to prove that you've done your due diligence regarding security. For a business, its important to be able to offload the liability for some aspects of security to other persons and institutions.

To create a somewhat stylized and hypothetical example:
An entrepreneur hires two developers to build (or rebuild) a site. But he tells them right away, that security is a concern, and thus

• that he will conduct regular code reviews with them, where they have to explain security-relevant topics and decisions to him.
• that there will be an external security audit prior to launch, and that they will be doing excess hours to fix any serious uncovered issues

So now its in the developers own interest to come up with clever and creative solutions to get a grip onto security. This, and the fact that they will regularly be forced to explain what they've done to an outsider will create a push in the direction of a more structured, architecture centric approach. Building this way will slow them down considerably for sure, so that is the price to pay. But in the end, both sides will benefit. The developers are relieved from those mind bogging discussions about the right level of carefulness and trickery, since there is a clear externally set goal to work against. Also, they've gotten a good argument to defeat pressure to move faster. And the entrepreneur, by conducting and moderating the code reviews, got a more thorough understanding of the technology and system to be built plus an external audit and testate, which is a building block for legal defence in case a real security breach happens later on.

While such an approach has proven his virtue in practice, unfortunately it's not a guaranteed recipe for success. It still pretty much depends on the personality of the people involved. Team up the "right" people in such a scheme, and it becomes a recipe for disaster 

I don't operate a serious web facing business.  Actually most successful webshops start designing their  custom code as they grow.

facebook.com operated on php/js/mysql LAMP stack until it grew into the multi-million users mark.  I believe their back end is now  C++, Java, Python, and Erlang.

Mt. Gox does pretty well on php/mysql

There are dozens of other examples. 

I just don't know Rails.  Here is someone's list of top 50 rails sites.
http://goo.gl/ekrGA

Seems a little light on  financial service site.

But like I said, It not the language as much as it is the dev's knowledge of that language.

So to each his own.

Care to remind me which
you operate ?

Rails is awesome, deal with it.

And thus, it turned into a language thread.

So here are my choices:

Python
Django
Twisted
Jinja

All the other tools mentioned also can do the job.

Big no to ruby and asp.net
For a serious web facing business:
Php
Mysql
Python

1. Open source
2. Proven
3. Scalable
4. Availability of developers
Collocated on dedicated hardened secure servers and maintained by competent devs and sysadmins and you've got a robust and secure system.

Any one would shocked to know the true extent that the legacy financial system is hacked on all their proprietary commercial grade hardware and software.  

So it's not necessarily the system / language that matters but the quality of the work of the individuals who implement your system

(And still your gonna get hacked if your system has any real value)

I know the difference between a language and a framework and proved it...  Also Sorry I didn't realize but still compare them, and if you know a better site please post it... I am not creating FUD LMAO Cause everyone chooses PHP over the Ruby OMG so much FUD. Your making FUD by calling me a moron and a fraud, anyone with common sense would have noticed it and just click on the button to order them reversely. LMAO Good try trolling, maybe next time you will get it down.

My vote would go to Scala and Play 2 for security & scalability but hey, I'm not a web developer 

How is ASP.NET horrible at scaling? If you have a developer building an application in ASP.NET MVC with scalability in mind, it is extremely scalable.
How is Azure insecure? Please enlighten me.
Microsoft pulling the plug? The way things are going now, I highly doubt that. Also I'd like to point out, from my understanding ASP.NET MVC is open source - http://aspnetwebstack.codeplex.com/

ASP.NET MVC has a lot of nice things, like easy bundling and minification of Javascript and CSS. Easy to use auto image optimisation like http://imageresizing.net/.

But yes I do agree that there are more PHP developers around this scene and that for the most part ASP.NET is more expensive.

How much experience have you had with ASP.NET and PHP? I'm a ASP.NET developer and working on a Ecommerce CMS on a daily basis with over 100 clients. Previously I was a PHP programmer and have programmed several plugins for forums systems (in particular vBulletin and IPB). I don't like it when people start making posts without actually being able to backup their claims.

EDIT: Not to mention the absolutely sexiness of LINQ in ASP.NET

I'm going to have to side with gweedo as well... ASP.NET is horrible for scaling. Not technically, although the things POF.com have had to do to make it run well are pretty damning, but financially. A startup could really put to better use the $800 spent on each Windows Server license, not to mention the $2500+ for a MSSQL server (1 core!!!) license. Even their bizspark stuff has costs looming in the future. Also, for a Bitcoin web site you don't want to touch Azure for security reasons (at least not for the backend.)

Personally, I see lots of .NET shops considering moving off of the framework in general since Microsoft is very sketchy on the roadmap with WinRT/Windows 8 and especially with the disconnect between ASP.NET and the web. MVC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it has enough traction to be viable long term. Also, if Microsoft ever pulls the plug, you get stuck...

Python all the way!!!

Edit: oh yeah, you should ping all the people that posted in this topic: Anyone looking for work? (Lol, none of them are .NET devs)

I disagree, security should not be your #1 concern when choosing a language. Almost all your mainstream languages can be security, Ruby on Rails, Java, ASP.NET, PHP. I believe your main concerns when choosing a language are:

There are a couple of questions you need to ask yourself:

Business Perspective
Will it be hard to find more developers to work on it? (If you look at job search sites you will notice that there aren't many Ruby on Rails jobs, however there are plenty of ASP.NET jobs.

How important is cost in relation to maintainability/testability? (I know from real world experience that ASP.NET Webforms is a lot easier for developers to understand and development time is faster (therefore you can get a junior developer later down the track), on the other hand ASP.NET MVC allows for great maintainability and testability, however this does require people who are more experienced and know a thing or two about architecture (usually these developers cost more).

Software Cost? Do you have money to pay for additional software. ASP.NET has a lot of tools out there you can pay for, SQL Server, Windows Server, Telerik Controls etc.

Hardware Cost? What type of infrastructure will you need, how scalable should your site be?

How easy is it to secure? Even though most languages have the ability to be secure, other are easier to secure. Take for example ASP.NET, with that most of the time you will use an ORM which usually abstracts the security / database aspect away from the coding.

My opinion
My personal preference when it comes to choosing a web development language is ASP.NET MVC for the follow reasons:

It is really testable/maintainable - TFD/TDD (Test Driven Development)
It demands a good architecture - Once again TDD is a contributor to this as it makes you think about how to architecture the software
Scalable - Like many other languages ASP.NET is very scalable
Developers - There are a lot of ASP.NET developers out there (a lot of competition for hiring them too), however in my personal opinion, I find that ASP.NET developers have higher standards than your average PHP developer.
Familiarity - I'm an 8am - 5 pm ASP.NET Webforms developer
Security - It does a good job of giving you the necessary tools to make the application secure (a lot of security holes with php sites come from simple human error of forgetting to escape strings).

Could you PM me your skype so we can discuss this at some stage?

LMAO yes I am such a noob. Yet I never said that RoR was a language in my post you could see. So maybe you need to open your eyes. Also RoR and Ruby have had many exploits over the years http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-12043/product_id-22568/Rubyonrails-Ruby-On-Rails.html I leave that here. Also php has been around for many years so as language it is pretty secure and actually the better choice over RoR. OMG I compare a framework with a language, I have angered the gods of ruby let them have mercy on my soul!!!!!!!!! Ok so now if you do compare your logic against RoR and php, PHP still wins out. http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-74/product_id-128/cvssscoremin-2/cvssscoremax-2.99/PHP-PHP.html

Ok so I guess you would be the noob NOOB ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! gyverlb js

Sorry, you are not a noob, you are a fraud and a moron.
A moron because :

• You still don't understand what's the difference between a language and a framework.
• You use a site which bundles vulnerabilities from third party software designed to work with the sotware you wish to study (not hard to spot, the thrid vulnerability listed for Rails is one of those).

A fraud because you even filtered out PHP vulnerabilities showing only the the ones with low scores between 2 and 3 to make your case stronger by using this:
http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-74/product_id-128/cvssscoremin-2/cvssscoremax-2.99/PHP-PHP.html
instead of this:
http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-74/product_id-128/PHP-PHP.html

Pathetic attempt at FUD.

Security needs to be the #1 concern.  You've been here for a few months, you've had a taste of how Bitcoin can go wrong with the coins themselves are handled incorrectly.  And if you're selling software to other companies, you'd better be dang sure that they can't blame any loss of coins on you, or you'll be bankrupt with a stack of lawsuits in a hurry.

Noob alert: RoR is a framework, PHP is a language.

RoR had *one* recent fix for an exploit, I don't know of any other in the latest releases (so where are the exploits referred to above?).

Almost all languages and frameworks have exploits being fixed. What is important is the frequency at which they occur, how much time is spent waiting for a fix and you having competent people available to apply it in a timely maner.

Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I was not aware of this until you explained it very clearly, I will definitely in mind all of the tips you gave here. In my case, security will be one of the main concerns so I should look for someone that is proficient in it and that can build a great foundation for the system to be able to grow and expand without have major security flaws.

Choice of language is one thing, but prior to that should be a choice and decision on the architecture of your system. Even before that, there should be an evaluation and decision on the target platform to run, and even before that there should be a evaluation, plan and decision on the way you want to handle the operations part of your business, how you want to deal with software quality and security.

To illustrate that a bit: Many heavyweight banking or shopping systems are written in a statically typed language and deployed on an Application server cluster. Thus, when a company has decided upon this basic direction, typically they draw on the pool of developers and technicians from one of the relevant ecosystems (Java, Windows / .Net, C/C++, ...). Each of these come with a specific mindset and set of best practices; also, the available pool of skilled people might be different.

Also, even medium sized systems benefit from a separation between backend and frontend (presentation layer). Still the more so, when security is an issue. In that case, the backend could be based on a more heavyweight technology with well established security and quality practices, while the front-end could use a language (Ruby, Groovy, Python, JavaScript, VB) and framework to support rapid development and quick adaptation to changed needs.

There is a catch though. It is rather rare for developers to be equally proficient in both of these two disciplines. Some people are able to create you a slick website in just 2 weeks, and quickly adapt it to your ideas, but fail miserably when it comes to build maintainable code, which is easy to operate on the long run and can be scaled up as the business grows. Other people are good in the latter mentioned disciplines, but will require 4 times as long for the initial launch and aren't very responsive when it comes to demands for quick change. And finally, you'll never be able to get low cost, quick time-to-market, and high quality/security/durability at the same time; if you do your job well, you might be able to get two of these goals.

So, in the end, the success depends very much on how you, as a founder set the priorities, lead your people and ensure the project remains on track. There is no one-size-fits-all method to achieve that. You might proceed methodically, or just decide to buy best-of-breed and only do minimal in-house development, or go for the mad 80+ hours a week sprint with people excited about the goal. These decisions should be first, followed by a system plan and architecture, and only as a last step comes the decision for a specific technology (framework, platform, language(s)).

RoR is a framework written in Ruby, Ruby is a language. If I were you I wouldn't limit myself to specific languages unless it is because you want to develop the website in languages you know yourself (but as you are the one looking for the software developer, probably someone with more experience than you, I don't see why you would do that; even then, you can simply take some time and learn the language in question). I would understand more if you were to limit yourself to specific frameworks as each may have a different purpose).

BTW. Python all the way