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rby

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 18, 2023, 12:57:30 PM

Quote from: rby on May 18, 2023, 12:47:51 PM

According to your analogy, if I expose my electrum wallet seed phrase to people such that upto 10 persons have access to the seed phrase, does it automatically make electrum wallet a custodial wallet?

It says nothing about Electrum, since Electrum can be used in a variety of ways, as a hot wallet, or a cold wallet, or a multi-sig wallet, or a 2FA wallet, and so on.

Noted!

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 18, 2023, 12:57:30 PM

It does mean that your specific wallet is no longer non-custodial since other people have the ability to take all your coins without your consent.

Ok!
It simply means that if anyone else knows my keys, be it the company that developed the wallet, be it my wife (with or without my consent). Since, another person other than me has access or is in possession of the keys, that specific wallet that generated the keys is to be regarded as a custodial wallet.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: rby on May 18, 2023, 12:47:51 PM

According to your analogy, if I expose my electrum wallet seed phrase to people such that upto 10 persons have access to the seed phrase, does it automatically make electrum wallet a custodial wallet?

It says nothing about Electrum, since Electrum can be used in a variety of ways, as a hot wallet, or a cold wallet, or a multi-sig wallet, or a 2FA wallet, and so on.

It does mean that your specific wallet is no longer non-custodial since other people have the ability to take all your coins without your consent.

rby

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Quote from: DaveF on May 17, 2023, 08:08:22 AM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 17, 2023, 03:12:29 AM

Quote from: rby on May 16, 2023, 03:21:00 PM

The basics of wallet categorization as custodial and non-custodial is the idea of who holds the private keys.

And in a closed source wallet you simply don't know who holds the private keys, so you cannot call it non-custodial.

You don't know who has ACCESS to the keys.
It's trivial to check if you have them, all you have to do is take whatever device offline and then start the wallet. If you have access to the keys / seed it's non custodial.

WHO ELSE HAS CUSTODY OF THE KEYS IS A DIFFERENT THING.

Coinomi wallet / trust wallet / many others we can say they are non custodial since you can get the private keys and seed and do whatever you want with them.

Are they safe? Are they secure? Can they be trusted, has 0 to do with that.

I can write a 100% open source non custodial wallet that once funds are sent to it you can only send to me.
That does not make it any less open source or non custodial. It, just makes it a bad wallet choice.

-Dave

Dave, you just replicated my mind. It may be that I lack some accurate words to put my explanation forward but with what I said above, it is just agreeing with what you said.
There is no point trying to re-categorize a closed source non-custodial wallet because it is not an open source code.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 17, 2023, 09:47:28 AM

I'm going to agree to disagree here. A non-custodial wallet should be one in which I, and I alone, have access to the private keys. If someone else also has access, then I wouldn't call that non-custodial.

According to your analogy, if I expose my electrum wallet seed phrase to people such that upto 10 persons have access to the seed phrase, does it automatically make electrum wallet a custodial wallet?

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Op use the one everyone is saying which is Electrum. Electrum is like the Central Bank of Bitcoin where guarantee trust is impeded. I have not used Coinbase Wallet before but from what you saying, if wish to give a try then go ahead. Coinbase Wallet might have a link with Coinbase.com even though the wallet is open source, which is only you have control over your funds. And close source wallets are not to keep coins or funds for a long period of time but for short period of time. If you want to do instant transaction business with someone then you can use custodian wallets but if it is for a long time storage and for investment purpose, then non custodian wallet is advise to use.

o_e_l_e_o

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I'm going to agree to disagree here. A non-custodial wallet should be one in which I, and I alone, have access to the private keys. If someone else also has access, then I wouldn't call that non-custodial. If you can't prove that no one else has access (as is the case with every closed source wallet), then I also wouldn't call it non-custodial.

It's not a perfect categorization, but that's what happens when we apply binary labels like custodial/non-custodial or hot/cold to wallets. The safest wallets are non-custodial wallets in which I exclusively hold the private keys, and that is provably the case. Everything else should be classified as custodial so we do not muddy the waters by people using closed source wallets in which they think they have exclusive access to their private keys, and then wondering why their seed phrase was sent across the internet to Google servers and all their coins were stolen.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 17, 2023, 03:12:29 AM

Quote from: rby on May 16, 2023, 03:21:00 PM

The basics of wallet categorization as custodial and non-custodial is the idea of who holds the private keys.

And in a closed source wallet you simply don't know who holds the private keys, so you cannot call it non-custodial.

You don't know who has ACCESS to the keys.
It's trivial to check if you have them, all you have to do is take whatever device offline and then start the wallet. If you have access to the keys / seed it's non custodial.

WHO ELSE HAS CUSTODY OF THE KEYS IS A DIFFERENT THING.

Coinomi wallet / trust wallet / many others we can say they are non custodial since you can get the private keys and seed and do whatever you want with them.

Are they safe? Are they secure? Can they be trusted, has 0 to do with that.

I can write a 100% open source non custodial wallet that once funds are sent to it you can only send to me.
That does not make it any less open source or non custodial. It, just makes it a bad wallet choice.

-Dave

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Quote from: rby on May 16, 2023, 03:21:00 PM

The basics of wallet categorization as custodial and non-custodial is the idea of who holds the private keys.

And in a closed source wallet you simply don't know who holds the private keys, so you cannot call it non-custodial.

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Quote from: rby on May 16, 2023, 03:21:00 PM

So, I mean if the backend guys store the keys in there server, it can be called an unsafe non-custodial wallet instead of making it totally the opposite.

or perhaps they also have "custody" of your funds since they also hold keys to your money? Grin

I think someone opting for a closed source wallet which claims to give them control of their funds makes no sense at all

rby

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 16, 2023, 02:14:07 PM

I'd also point out that the reasons Trust wallet gave for moving to closed source are bullshit:

It sounds bullshit and like some defensive statements which anyone could make up to defend their decisions.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on May 16, 2023, 02:14:07 PM

Quote from: rby on May 16, 2023, 01:30:08 PM

NO!
In as much as it seed phrase can be imported into another wallet in order to access the private keys and blockchain, it should be called a non-custodial wallet. The reasons that some wallets are closed source isn't arrogance and in some cases these wallets started as open source and later turned to closed source.

You are wrong.

Just because it provides a seed phrase does not mean it is non-custodial. Since the wallet is closed source, you have absolutely no idea how that seed phrase was generated, how it is stored, who else has access to it, and so on. For all you know, Coinbase (or Coinomi, or Trust wallet) have a list of every seed phrase their wallets have ever generated stored on a server somewhere.

The basics of wallet categorization as custodial and non-custodial is the idea of who holds the private keys. Everyone other thing is seconda. As the name implies, custodial (the seed phrase in custody of a third party). Then, if two people are holding the seed phrase it could be called co-custodial (completely made up).
So, I mean if the backend guys store the keys in there server, it can be called an unsafe non-custodial wallet instead of making it totally the opposite.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: rby on May 16, 2023, 01:30:08 PM

NO!
In as much as it seed phrase can be imported into another wallet in order to access the private keys and blockchain, it should be called a non-custodial wallet. The reasons that some wallets are closed source isn't arrogance and in some cases these wallets started as open source and later turned to closed source.

You are wrong.

Just because it provides a seed phrase does not mean it is non-custodial. Since the wallet is closed source, you have absolutely no idea how that seed phrase was generated, how it is stored, who else has access to it, and so on. For all you know, Coinbase (or Coinomi, or Trust wallet) have a list of every seed phrase their wallets have ever generated stored on a server somewhere.

I'd also point out that the reasons Trust wallet gave for moving to closed source are bullshit:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on December 20, 2022, 10:29:13 AM

I know this is the reasoning Trust wallet give for being closed source, but I don't buy this reasoning at all. The only part of a wallet which 99.9% of users pay attention is the GUI. It is trivial to clone a GUI even without access to the source code. Being closed source might keep all the back end, the wallet generation process, the signing transaction processes, etc., hidden from attackers, but attackers do not care about any of that in the slightest. All they need is a wallet which looks the same as Trust wallet, which sends any generated or entered seed phrases to their server online. So they can use any bare bones code which generates seed phrases, add in their malicious code to send those seed phrases to a server, copy the GUI just by looking at it, and release it to the app store as "Trust Wallet". Being closed source does nothing to protect against this.

rby

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Quote from: Medusah on May 03, 2023, 05:17:27 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 26, 2022, 01:10:40 AM

A noncustododial wallet that requires people to accept Coinbase terms of service and privacy before accessing it

Any wallet software whose source code is not open to be studied and read by the vast community of exprerienced developers means that either its developers are arrogant enough to believe they can write absolutely secure software, or that they operate in a manner that if revealed would discredit them. In any case, they cannot be trusted and thus cannot call their wallet non-custodial as it's impossible to verify that claim.

NO!
In as much as it seed phrase can be imported into another wallet in order to access the private keys and blockchain, it should be called a non-custodial wallet. The reasons that some wallets are closed source isn't arrogance and in some cases these wallets started as open source and later turned to closed source. See what Trust Wallet has to say about coinbase and themselves.

Quote

As of today, we decided to move the Trust Wallet app for Android into closed source development.

It has come to our attention that some dishonest developers have been cloning Trust Wallet and either scamming users or using the code without permission as their own product. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to trace and remove those applications in the Android ecosystem.

We would like to support Coinomi wallet on this critical issue. We understand their decision for keeping wallet closed source to protect users and would like to do the same.

https://trustwallet.medium.com/why-open-sourcing-android-app-could-be-a-harm-to-the-crypto-community-fb3ae1707dc6

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 26, 2022, 01:10:40 AM

A noncustododial wallet that requires people to accept Coinbase terms of service and privacy before accessing it

Any wallet software whose source code is not open to be studied and read by the vast community of exprerienced developers means that either its developers are arrogant enough to believe they can write absolutely secure software, or that they operate in a manner that if revealed would discredit them. In any case, they cannot be trusted and thus cannot call their wallet non-custodial as it's impossible to verify that claim.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: delfastTions on May 03, 2023, 01:22:40 AM

Yesterday they sent me an interesting message in the mail.

It's a scam: https://spamreports.report/post/716208271598534656/scam. Anyone else receiving such an email should make sure they don't click any links in that email, and if they have, consider their Coinbase accounts/wallets compromised.

Having said all that, Coinbase have already implemented this kind of KYC nonsense in some countries, so they could very well do the same to anyone else, anywhere else. You would do well to get any and all coins you own off of any centralized exchange or any wallet software owned by a centralized exchange, such as Coinbase Wallet or Trust Wallet.

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Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 07:44:34 PM

Hey, I was thinking to switch to Coinbase Wallet. Have you got any problem with this app? I'm not talking about the Coinbase Exchange wallet. I will deposit some large sums of money and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app. How is/was your experience with this wallet? Thank you!

What I know about coinbase is that they ask for kyc, of course then you have no control over your wallet and anytime they can freeze your account. So I advise you to think about it carefully before you enter money.

I just ask you, what crypto do you enter to store it? Is it Bitcoin? Ethereum, Bnb, Arb, or etc? Then I haven't tried coinbase ever since.

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Quote from: Slottie on April 27, 2022, 12:15:33 PM

Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 07:44:34 PM

Hey, I was thinking to switch to Coinbase Wallet. Have you got any problem with this app? I'm not talking about the Coinbase Exchange wallet. I will deposit some large sums of money and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app. How is/was your experience with this wallet? Thank you!

For me personally, the Coinbase Wallet experience was cool. I will never deposit high sums on mobile wallets and I encourage you to follow my advice.

Yesterday they sent me an interesting message in the mail. From an email address...Coinbase Wallet At first I thought that these were some kind of scammers, but after reading the letter I realized that they did not demand anything from me, but simply warned me about a change in the policy for working with citizens. And therefore, these are not scammers, but probably official representatives of Coinbase wallet. I received the following email:
“”Hi there,
Beginning in 2 days, Coinbase will introduce some changes required by local regulations. Specifically, when you send crypto outside of Coinbase, we are required to ask you for the name and physical address of the recipient and the purpose of transfer. This allows us to verify that you control the Coinbase Wallet that is receiving the crypto assets, which is a requirement under the new regulations. Get under way.””
After reading this warning, I was stunned!

It turns out now that devs and the administration of this wallet will demand from me not only information about me, which, of course, if KYC was once passed, but also the place of residence of the recipient of my cryptocurrency transaction and the purpose of this payment.
I immediately had a reasonable question. Devs are completely out of their minds when this is required from payments in cryptocurrency, which was originally created as anonymous payments.
And this is her main goal, actually!
I will look and probably laugh, how many users Coinbase will have after such warnings. I think quite a bit. I have not used them for a long time, and now I will never deal with them at all.
I think that many people who read the message and this post of mine will quickly withdraw their money from this wallet.

DaveF

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on May 04, 2022, 09:48:07 AM

Quote from: Slottie on April 27, 2022, 12:15:33 PM

For me personally, the Coinbase Wallet experience was cool. I will never deposit high sums on mobile wallets and I encourage you to follow my advice.

Quote from: virasog on May 04, 2022, 09:11:14 AM

Even though coinbase wallet is non-custodial but closed source with all of the above features, yet i did not heard any issue being reported by any user using the coinbase wallet.

Someone's experience while using such unrecommendable wallet should be cool because sacrificing privacy will be cool and an easy way to go. Also backup on online clouds would be cool until hackers use someone as a scapegoat just like Metamask iCloud attack.

Hackers steal $655K after picking MetaMask seed from iCloud backup

If you enable fingerprint for unlocking your device, it would also be cool to use fingerprint to unlock a wallet as Coinbase recommended fingerprint for the wallet access. It would definitely be easy for an attacker to compromise your device and your Coinbase wallet either using your finger while sleeping, or cutting off the device owner's finger, or using modern means of taking fingerprint to unlock the device and the wallet.

That had to have been a targeted attack against that user.

Quote

1/ On April 15th, @revive_dom received multiple text messages asking to reset his Apple ID password and at 6:32 PM he received a call from "Apple Inc." which was a spoofed caller ID.
2/ verification code to prove the owner of the Apple ID account. After giving the 6 digit verification code, the scammers hung up and his MetaMask wallet was wiped, with over $650,000 stolen.

So it really looks like they knew he had a lot of money in a HOT WALLET that was backed up improperly.
If you stick a note on your front door that says "key under doormat" you then don't complain when you get robbed.

-Dave

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Quote from: Slottie on April 27, 2022, 12:15:33 PM

For me personally, the Coinbase Wallet experience was cool. I will never deposit high sums on mobile wallets and I encourage you to follow my advice.

Quote from: virasog on May 04, 2022, 09:11:14 AM

Even though coinbase wallet is non-custodial but closed source with all of the above features, yet i did not heard any issue being reported by any user using the coinbase wallet.

Someone's experience while using such unrecommendable wallet should be cool because sacrificing privacy will be cool and an easy way to go. Also backup on online clouds would be cool until hackers use someone as a scapegoat just like Metamask iCloud attack.

Hackers steal $655K after picking MetaMask seed from iCloud backup

If you enable fingerprint for unlocking your device, it would also be cool to use fingerprint to unlock a wallet as Coinbase recommended fingerprint for the wallet access. It would definitely be easy for an attacker to compromise your device and your Coinbase wallet either using your finger while sleeping, or cutting off the device owner's finger, or using modern means of taking fingerprint to unlock the device and the wallet.

virasog

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 26, 2022, 01:10:40 AM

We can now get a better review about Coinbase wallet from this thread:

Is Coinbase noncustododial wallet recommendable?

Is a close source wallet
Not having change address
It is a web wallet
A noncustododial wallet that requires people to accept Coinbase terms of service and privacy before accessing it
Recommending fingerprint instead of pin or password
Recommending online cloud storage of seed phrase
Users can generate wallet without immediate seed phrase backup
Encouraging people to connect to Coinbase.com (which is custodial), that is privacy invasion

Even though coinbase wallet is non-custodial but closed source with all of the above features, yet i did not heard any issue being reported by any user using the coinbase wallet.

I cannot say that this wallet is scam but why take the risk (of closed source) when we have electrum and other better options available to store our coins.

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Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 07:44:34 PM

Hey, I was thinking to switch to Coinbase Wallet. Have you got any problem with this app? I'm not talking about the Coinbase Exchange wallet. I will deposit some large sums of money and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app. How is/was your experience with this wallet? Thank you!

For me personally, the Coinbase Wallet experience was cool. I will never deposit high sums on mobile wallets and I encourage you to follow my advice.

Charles-Tim

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We can now get a better review about Coinbase wallet from this thread:

Is Coinbase noncustododial wallet recommendable?

Is a close source wallet
Not having change address
It is a web wallet
A noncustododial wallet that requires people to accept Coinbase terms of service and privacy before accessing it
Recommending fingerprint instead of pin or password
Recommending online cloud storage of seed phrase
Users can generate wallet without immediate seed phrase backup
Encouraging people to connect to Coinbase.com (which is custodial), that is privacy invasion

DaveF

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on April 24, 2022, 06:24:10 AM

Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 07:44:34 PM

and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app.

Then, whatever you do, don't go with Coinbase. They're the ones who started and supported this KYC claptrap. It is known that they censor transactions, treat bitcoin as non-fungible, sell all of your data to chain analysis companies etc. Obviously, they don't go well with transparency and that's why their wallet is closed-source. It won't surprise me if it contains spyware to maximize their traceability.

Consider using any of the recommended non-custodial wallets from bitcoin.org instead.

As others have said, all in all there are better choices.
But, I will add that if there is some feature you need or coin that only they support I would not worry about using it.
Off the top of my head I can't think of a reason, but you might.

-Dave

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 07:44:34 PM

and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app.

Then, whatever you do, don't go with Coinbase. They're the ones who started and supported this KYC claptrap. It is known that they censor transactions, treat bitcoin as non-fungible, sell all of your data to chain analysis companies etc. Obviously, they don't go well with transparency and that's why their wallet is closed-source. It won't surprise me if it contains spyware to maximize their traceability.

Consider using any of the recommended non-custodial wallets from bitcoin.org instead.

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I have used the coinbase wallet for small amounts of money in the past and I didn't face any problem with it. But I would never use it to store huge amounts of money as long as it's closed source and its code hasn't been reviewed and audited by independent parties. Actually, I would never suggest any online wallet for large amounts of money.
The safest option is to use cold storage. Since you are planning to "deposit some large sums of money" then investing few bucks to buy a hardware wallet shouldn't be a problem for you. Otherwise, you can use free apps such as Electrum to create offline wallets. They are supposed to be secure as long as you know how to properly set it up.

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 22, 2022, 09:24:16 PM

Is it open source because I couldn't find any source code (although I only looked a little). If you can't see the source code and can not compile it yourself then you should avoid such wallets and stick to other wallets that are open source such as Electrum.

The wallet is non-custodial but closed-source. Neither their iOS app nor the one for Android can be compiled and verified. This should be their GitHub page. The team from Wallet Scrutiny wasn't able to rebuild the app from source. Some code snippets are apparently provided, but it's incomplete.

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Personally haven't used it yet, but what's wrong with just using MetaMask for Ethereum and Phantom for Solana? Just a heads up that Coinbase Wallet doesn't support Bitcoin outside the likes of wrapped bitcoin(WBTC).

nc50lc

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Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 07:44:34 PM

-snip- I will deposit some large sums of money and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app. How is/was your experience with this wallet? Thank you!

For that goal, it is indeed non-custodial and your coins wont be locked-up since the 12-word-backup can be recovered with any other BIP39 supported wallet.
I've only tested Bitcoin asset and since it's BIP39 seed I assume it's same for the altcoins as well.

But you've mentioned "large amount of money", I don't think it's a good idea to use a smartphone app to store that.
If it's ease-of-use and safety you're looking for, opt-in for a "hardware wallet" instead.

pooya87

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Quote from: PrinceVisser on April 22, 2022, 09:10:48 PM

I mentioned twice that I’m not talking about the coinbase.com wallet. I’m talking about their new wallet called Coinbase Wallet which it gives you the 12 seed phrase.

Is it open source because I couldn't find any source code (although I only looked a little). If you can't see the source code and can not compile it yourself then you should avoid such wallets and stick to other wallets that are open source such as Electrum.

PrinceVisser

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on April 22, 2022, 08:30:51 PM

Is it Coinbase.com which is custodial wallet or Coinbase wallet which is noncustododial wallet that generates you seed phrase, keys and your own addresses?

Coinbase.com
It is custodial wallet, not you keys and not your coins on blockchain. Coinbase has the full control over your own coin and they can decide to freeze your Coinbase account as they pleases.

Coinbase wallet
The wallet will generate you seed phrase (12 words seed phrase), keys and addresses.
Not also recommendabke as it supports cloud seed phrase backup, although you can decide not to backup your seed phrase on online cloud but many people can do this which is highly not secure and safe at all.

Backing up on online cloud is not safe. Backup offline is recommendable but replicate it and have it backup in (like 2 or 3) different locations.

To hold large sum of coins, use cold wallet like paper wallet, Electrum cold storage, or for convenience and altcoin support, use open source hardware wallet.

I mentioned twice that I’m not talking about the coinbase.com wallet. I’m talking about their new wallet called Coinbase Wallet which it gives you the 12 seed phrase.

Charles-Tim

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Is it Coinbase.com which is custodial wallet or Coinbase wallet which is noncustododial wallet that generates you seed phrase, keys and your own addresses?

Coinbase.com
It is custodial wallet, not you keys and not your coins on blockchain. Coinbase has the full control over your own coin and they can decide to freeze your Coinbase account as they pleases.

Coinbase wallet
The wallet will generate you seed phrase (12 words seed phrase), keys and addresses.
Not also recommendabke as it supports cloud seed phrase backup, although you can decide not to backup your seed phrase on online cloud but many people can do this which is highly not secure and safe at all.

Backing up on online cloud is not safe. Backup offline is recommendable but replicate it and have it backup in (like 2 or 3) different locations.

To hold large sum of coins, use cold wallet like paper wallet, Electrum cold storage, or for convenience and altcoin support, use open source hardware wallet.

PrinceVisser

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Hey, I was thinking to switch to Coinbase Wallet. Have you got any problem with this app? I'm not talking about the Coinbase Exchange wallet. I will deposit some large sums of money and I don't want to get asked for KYC or some stupid sh*t blocking my money in app. How is/was your experience with this wallet? Thank you!

Topic: Coinbase Wallet (Read 621 times)