Topic: Coinsigner decentralized exchange crowd funding campaign and shedding some light - page 2. (Read 9585 times)

Thanks for the reply. Sorry about the snarky comment, I have a developed a bit of patent-hate But I do understand your reasoning.

Where I am based - UK & Europe, when I do a bank transfer (SEPA or UKFPS) I do not receive a code or any kind of information I could give to a third party, who could independently verify that I did in fact make a payment. The only way would be for the third party to be given access to my online bank account.

So although the payment methods are pretty much non-reversible they are entirely non-verifiable by any third party apart from employees of the banks concerned.

Thank you for your endorsement. Let me shed further light on the process. In agreement with your comment, the goal for coinsigner is to strive to be completely transparent and accountable. And yes mediation is a very tricky thing over the internet. I spent months thinking about this problem and I came to two conclusions

1) Bitcoin to USD disputes: this can be done provided you use none reversible transfers and both traders agree to be bound and judged by a mediator according to the contract / protocol of action and evidence provided


https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_methods
   i) Bank Wire: This is very easy to mediate when both parties agree to use bank to bank wire-transfers which is non-reversible. This and other non-reversible payments methods are to be supported by coinsigner "initially"..I have tested the reversibility of a bank wire with a friend, its pretty solid. Once you have that base of usage for non reversible transfer methods, You can lock of bitcoin on the blockchain, you can then for example, structure a contract/protocol of action with details of: what financial institution the money is being sent from /where it is going, what time or time range its going to be done, what day its going to be done, account details of sender and receiver i.e checking and routing, verification / administrative contract at financial institutions, instruction for how mediator/mediators can verify transfer truthfully (making sure the admin contact is not a spoof). etc you get this gist.

 Now for traders, the process is simple and intuitive using the recommended template where traders just fill in the gap. Traders will very aware of the significance of every step. The details of this contract is encrypted and only decryptable by the traders if there is a dispute. You can see now that all the mediator has to do is ask the traders to unlock the contract and also provide the evidence that what was described in contract has been done. If it is proven by an administrative contact that specified funds have been transferred e.g providing:  Fedwire Reference Number (9 digits) or SWIFT Code, then it is on the buyer to prove that such payment wasn't made by providing access to administrate contact and who can confirm recent transaction detail. If buyer refuses, he/ she is at risk of loosing the dispute. And these are part of the term of using coinsigner


Also once seller can prove that such a transfer was made with wire transfer codes, amount and date, most of the time I suspect that it is the case that there is some foul play on the part of the buyer. Its either foul play or a clerical error. Note that traders can extend the time required to fulfill contract obligation. The mediated process is highly transparent and monitored in real time by other mediators who are rewarded with points (counting towards payrate increase) for providing good feedback or reporting anything fishy. A mediator could be replaced if it is found that they are not providing enough feedback, being transparent or objective. Not providing an objective feedback carries more serious consequences. The actual dispute process is usually a short time duration anywhere between 30 mins to 2 hours.

Now this process seems to be very involved to explain in text..but it the process will be built to be visually intuitive with everything happening in real time.



2) Bitcoin to other commodities or physical good
This is the most difficult case, as it will truly be the word of the seller against the buyer. How do you prove that you did not get that goldbar?? maybe something to do with GPS /google maps and electronic seals that ping home will solve that problem. In any case the This is not on the immediate radar for development or research on coinsigner...


As for the claim,  this is made on the premise that the dispute process is modeled after a courtroom. In a courtroom you have a judge, plaintiff , defendant and audience (court officers, reporters etc). Unless that there was some "recess" where judges can take a break and talk to either plaintiff or defendant privately, there is no way I see the judge colluding with one party without the audience noticing. The dispute process on coinsigner models this. Dispute sessions are a set time limit, the audience are other mediators (not that all mediator are represented psuodonomously) and these mediators are motivated to make sure the presiding mediator is objective and honest. Any verification process like phone calls are heard by top tier mediators present in the session (so . This is the type of conduct that

I intend to open private beta within a month, where mediators and traders hold dispute sessions using the testnet to see if there is anyway to game the system, Without other mediators raising alarms. Overrall I think the process deters traders and makes sure they do all they can to resolve any issues between themselves first. Let me know what you think

Thank you very much, you are appreciated!! Yes you will now have access to level 4 because of your support. Make sure you keep your donor address safe. Also keep in mind there are several checks to ensure that you can operate transparently and objectively on every case you would be part of, at coinsigner. As long as you agree the the terms of conduct and provide required information, you will be good to go. There is more information about the requirements and checks coming out soon keep a look out....

Interesting idea. I really like the decentralised mediation concept which is transparent and accountable. However mediation is tricky over the internet, one can rarely prove that a payment really has been made and received by the other party. So it will often be the buyer's word against the seller's.

You have made a claim that your technology is collusion resistant. This remains to be seen as you have not provided any evidence of this. When will you do so?

I've donated 1 BTC on https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/202
Good luck in this.
Would love to be a level 4 mediator (Master) before all other signups (fits into my escrow business).

Crowdfunding page: https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/202
See video overview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtcT_2xJtYQ

Coinsigner is scalable application that employs paid mediators to act as  third parties in multi-signature transactions. What is unique and novel about this idea is that massive numbers of bitcoin trades can be facilitated, privately, without limit and safely using multi signature transactions. The other unique property abut the application is that there is a collusion resistant system build into the platform. This application builds on top of multi-signature transactions to make it fool proof from possible negative characteristics of human nature.

I am also working on a plan to develop and market integrable coinsigner branded POS systems for local businesses with high traffic in nyc. There are two benefits to this strategy. The first benefit is to the bitcoin ecosystem in general. The more stores that accept bitcoin will result in more people using bitcoin. The second benefit is for coinsigner. The business will consider coinsigner as an exchange venue considering the effect of the very prominent  cosigner branding.

there are several rewards for backing the project:

thank you listing on a special backers' page
Mastercoins
You  will have access to be a mediator before all other signups--(advanced,expert,master)
Free trades 12 months/lifetime
voting power
online board meeting
tea-shirt and founder labeling
Board of director candidates
An invite to a special private party event in NYC meeting the potential cofounders, special speakers and some entertainment.
   lifetime invites annually
   car service to hotel/airport/ party
   airline travel voucher to nyc for annual party /yearly
   hotel accommodation

Some Images








if you think this project does more good to bitcoin…..please support us here https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/202  
…remember to put your thinking hat on, review all the facts before coming to an objective conclusion.
See video overview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtcT_2xJtYQ


Project technical Info
…..
Coinsigner Integrates with the bitcoin protocol using node.js -> json rpc
Its uses only one significant feature of the bitcoin protocol: multi signature transactions. This is at the core of consigner,
however multi signature transactions are not enough to facilitate safe arbitration considering human nature. A high counterpart/collusion risk arises when transaction amounts are huge. So over the past couple of months I have spent time thinking out and planning how to implement this collusion resistant system around Mike Hearn's contracts specifically multi signature transaction. It is important to note that it is this "collusion resistant and deterrent system and method to incentivize and enable mediators to operate in scalable applications without bias"  is the intellectual property pursued as a defense mechanism to ensure survival against any potential future threats from big payment companies or patent trolls. It is important to know all intellectual property claims are a strategic hedge against future "patent trolls". I would love to collaborate and encourage more innovation in this area. Copy left and open patents options are serious consideration options. See provisional patent application info below in the patents section



Technical Info: These are some of the components to consigner:

-Multi-signature signing/spending scheme
Spending/signing a multi-sig  is an easy visually intuitive process, but it is a complicated process to explain, because there are two options which will be provided. To use the first option requires you to have access to the private key of the public key used in the multi-sig transaction to lock the coins initially. Basically this involves using a local browser app and encrypted webrtc connection to sign and transfer the transaction to the other peer(trader) to complete the transaction by signing and broadcasting. This is what I am currently working on…The second is the easiest option: It involves using a downloadable client in which you just download the transaction to be signed, specify your public key and send to peer/trader or broadcast assuming your wallet.dat file is on the same machine.

-Pseudonymously represented mediators
     -neither trader nor other mediators know who a particular mediator is
-Blind assignment of mediators to trades
       Mediators do not know or cannot find what contract they are attached prior to disputes

-evidence of contract
-This is a hash of a text agreement with terms/protocol of action that both traders agree on. Only the traders can decrypt this hash. And its in their best interest to decrypt contract hash if disputes occur. Traders get a copy and so does coinsigner. This hash is stored together with the transaction id of the 2 of 3 multi-sig transaction.


-Contract encryption / decyption tool

-Public/private key pool and real time decryption for mediators

When traders abide by rules set by the contract that both agree on, they go about business without the need for mediators. However if one of the traders raises a dispute…then:

--Traders are given a time frame to respond with all possible evidence of fulfillment of contract / protocol of action (i.e if you said you were going to send a bank wire on tuesday afternoon: you provide evidence of that and verification information…) for presiding mediator and other mediators to see…

---traders decrypt contract hash for presiding mediator and other mediators to see…


 A mediator is always assigned to every trade regardless of non-disputes and they are paid for being part of the trade, and yes mediators are scored based on how well they objectively made the right decision. Its is important to note that mediator do not know the actual trades they are assigned to until a dispute is raised. The mediator scores affect their pay rates, their ability to be part of other trades and how frequently the are assign to trades. So given these answers it would help to provide an analogy. Every mediator is governed by objectivity and is subject to be disbarred from position or case if he is found to be biased in any way.


-------------------ANALOGY----------------------------------------------------------------------

The analogy is similar to a court room where the 'mediator' is the judge, the plaintiff is the person raising the dispute and the defendant is the accused. But in this case the court room audience are other mediators who are watching the process in real time and have the ability to provide feedback to the objective performance of the mediator "judge" presiding over the case. Objectivity involves looking over the contract, examining what and how it promised to be fulfilled and commenting on, checking evidence provided by traders to see it matches the contract / protocol of action agreement. Mediators are represented pseudonymous and cannot tell who each other are. Every communication in that time frame is monitored, rated and commented on by other mediators. Feedback from other mediators is collected before and after judgement on the case is pronounced by the presiding mediator. Mediator pronounce judgement by pushing a simple button. which retrieves and decrypts the private key of the public key used as an output in the multi-sig transaction. The continuous earning of the mediators depend on their ability to objectively decide the true owner of the coins in question. The process sounds complicated but its in real time and intuitive. I hope this sheds some light on the actual process. As you can see its a rather complicated system to build...but the outcome will be that you will have a nice intuitive interface that just makes sense.

Discussing issues: Patents and mastercoin:

Patents:
…………
One of the weakness I identified is the threat in which a remittance/payment company that already has a model which is almost similar, operates  in the fiat realm only, but is considering bitcoin adoption. The company is PAYPAL.  We are well of pay pals dispute mediation which has a bad rap with merchants. I know because I was a merchant… The point is if bitcoin and dispute mediation catches on in a major way, whats to stop paypal or other companies following suite to try to establish some ground and destroy the little guys like me? So I felt it necessary to plan for long term survival by at least applying for a provisional patent. But I still follow the ideals of open patent , copyleft, encouraging more collaboration, sharing and more innovation in this field. I love open source by the way.
these are strongly considered initiatives:

http://www.google.com/patents/opnpledge/
http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/


The provisional patent application is new Un-obvious and useful improvement improvement to Mike Hearn's contracts; Specifically multi-signature transactions and I think I will be protected against threats form any payment company delving into bitcoin staking a claim in order to patent troll. This is the title:

"A method to deter or prevent collusion and enable scalable dispute resolution in large scale applications involving incentivized mediators as parties to cryptographic contracts in decentralized currencies."

There are 3 reasons why I felt that is was necessary

defensive strategy
I don't want to be left open litigation if a huge payment system like paypal or several others adopt bitcoin and decide to establish and enforce a patent

Novel
I think investors can appreciate an idea that has intellectual property bragging rights. This is the kind of ideas investors like to back.

Attribution
All I want is to be protected from threats that I could render me helpless if they become imminent. Attribution deters such threats
I mean Nikola Tesla had hundreds of patents registered in his name he didn't run off suing every company or person that used his ideas. Patents don't hurt people or innovation, patent trolls with patent hurt innovation. I consider myself honest and transparent so I would never do anything to tarnish my reputation.

what do you think now that you have some facts?…If you think this is an important project don't let narrow minded people project their fears on you.


Mastercoin:

First of all you I think mastercoin has potential. Yes I invested in mastercoin, but I was presented with the same opportunity that was presented to everybody else.

From an objective point of view, I think mastercoin is a great idea. Yeah there are some issues, but that doesn't automatically discredit it from solving some of the problems it aims to solve. The fact that the creator jr willet is bending over backwards to seek advise on the best implementation is a very good indication of good leadership and that the  project is in the right hands.

Yes, there are some debatable weaknesses that has caused a lot of backlash…but as i read the  founders responses to criticism. I believe more and more in the potential of the protocol. Jr willet is constantly promoting the mission to be a "good block chain citizen" he has also put his reputation on the line, he has a family and I am sure both his family and job aren't getting the best attention he may want to provide. The point is , he has been very transparent in every step of the way about the use of funds and the direction of development already. I think these characteristics gives the project some integrity and hope of success. In any case I invested in mastercoin and I am using this chance to give away mastercoin to those who wish they had them.

if you think this project does more good to bitcoin…..please support us here https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/202  
See video overview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtcT_2xJtYQ

…remember to put your thinking hat on, review all the facts before coming to an objective conclusion.



----------------------------------Edit On behalf of the bitcoin community and Mike Hearn's advice-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


My whole motivation was to build a company who's decisions are affected by a multitude of people passionate about the core bitcoin ideals. The scenario of the patent belonging to someone else is a very valid point raised by Mike Hearn and its a very common scenario that I have not thought about. Case in point: the Oracle-android case which was about 3 years ago of which I am familiar with. I am very familiar because my first start-up dealt with mobile applications primarily on the android platform and everything seemed shaky back then.

I am building this application to help the very people and community whose ideals are against this IP action . It wouldn't make sense to go against the general consensus of the very community I am trying to contribute to. Also it is a provisional patent application, so it has an expiration date of 1 year. So being that the community has spoken, it only makes sense to let the application expire. If any possibility of the future threats from financial services  I described become real, then I think the prior art argument applies because this issue is very public at this point. Please provide comments and feedback, thank you all.


Thanks for taking the time to read.