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Topic: CoinTerra Update: Engineering and Production status - page 3. (Read 4669 times)

member
Activity: 92
Merit: 10
20% missed power target. 2 circuits instead of 1. You can still probably get away with using 20A circuit @ average US home.

I remember reading the post here when you guys announced the chip for a first time. Glad I didn't fall for that. Same goes to hashfast.

Nope. trying to pull 2000w from a single US 120v is a terrible idea.

there are two independent power supplies.   

so if you have 2 circuits that would be okay.  I did that in anticipation. I have 2 20 amp circuits waiting.
hero member
Activity: 702
Merit: 500

WOW, my legitimate concerns have been confirmed now, and you have been proved to be on the wrong side of this debate...yet you continue to defend CT despite their clear failures.  Are you a shill?  Or just defending a position you've over-invested yourself in emotionally?

really?  someone doesn't agree with you and they're a shill?

you can't possibly be pragmatic and think of the best longterm value proposition, or is it better to be right, regardless of how much value you extract?

im not on the wrong side on 'the debate'  there's a debate - there is no 'wrong side' - and i try to be balanced and consider both sides of any argument.  

In this case I'm trying to focus on the big picture.  How to maximise value from our mining gear.

im not defending CT.  I'm waiting for my boxes just like you.  AND i want to extract maximum value out of my boxes - which means getting them sooner, and is much more important to me than whether they run at full speed or with a 15-20% under clock

Do you agree that the difficulty rises by about 20-30% each level change?  Thus you know that every week of delay in shipping, has a lost value to us equal to the diff change?

So.. what would you prefer that cointerra do - when faced with this situation?   ship boxes as fast as they can, whatever speed they run?... or take their time tweaking it, and deliver it when it can hit 2 TH - even if that could be 8 weeks away?

actually. lets put this in terms that are easier to compare...   do we prefer CT try to be more like KNC... and deliver quickly to customers... or more like HF, who are tweaking indefinitely and seem in no hurry to ship to customers ?    since the lateness of the hardware has a bigger impact on its ability to mine bitcoins, than exactly how fast it runs... don't we all agree that shipping the Jan customers sooner at 1.6 TH/s is Wayyy better than shipping later, at 2 TH/s?

Which one do you prefer?   I know which i prefer...  i want my TerraMiner BOX, NOW... even if it only hashes at 1.6 TH/s box - rather than wait 8 weeks for a 2 TH/s box.   Sure, the later batch customers will get a faster box than i will.  but i will have received my boxes sooner, and will have had a bigger benefit from mining earlier.

and yes, i want compensation too... but i care about the delivery of my box quickly much more than i care about whether I'm going to get a bonus or refund or discount or whatever they decide to do.  One week earlier shipping, more than covers any nickel or dime i could squeeze out of them in refunds or other comps.

As for how shilly i am... my record speaks for itself.. I've made a few hundred posts.   you can see how biassed or balanced i am.   and also, i'm not an anonymous bitointalk handle...  you know who i am.   perhaps i should also remind that i've got just as big - actually, bigger order with hashfast as i do with cointerra.  and i am also a knc customer... and bitfury... and bfl.. and previously also asicminer investor.  in short, I've nothing to gain from shilling... all i want is to mine productively and earn as many coins as possible.  if cointerra has good hardware for that so be it.   currently, I've been mining with knc jupiters and they've done well for me and I'm extremely happy with them as a company, and the boxes themselves.

i try and spread my eggs, and operate a portfolio approach to my mining gear.  i try not to pick sides.. and try to de-risk my purchases by ordering a bunch from several of the asic companies at the same time.  but i don't order from all of them, because i don't always agree with some of their technical or business decisions.  but that doesn't mean i go around dissing them either.

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
You really think difficulty would be over 20 billion in May?  Even with hashfast and cointerra shipping that is somewhat unlikely, 10 billion is more realistic in the spring.  If you really think difficulty is 22 billion in May then nobody would be buying KnC units at all.

The problem isn't that these won't ROI, it's that these now require huge power infrastructure, it's not cheap or easy to come up with the kind of power solutions needed to run these and for people who've basically sent all their spare cash to cointerra it's not exactly easy to come up with tons more money to build a setup capable of running crazy 2000 watt sucking rigs.  And if you've already invested in new power lines/PDUs/cabinets/etc it might be a loss.  
I have no idea what the difficulty will be... I was using the default numbers from that site to make a point that shipping now was in the customers best interest, even with the excessive power usage and underperformance.  It's definitely non-ideal...  but losing almost $8k in mining revenue while they attempted to fix it would also be non-ideal.  This is still the lesser of two evils, and CoinTerra acted appropriately in the light of that reality.  That was all.
hero member
Activity: 608
Merit: 500
The production units that we have assembled and tested so far are running at between 1.63TH/s and 1.72TH/s with power draw at the wall between 1900W and 2100W – typically 20% higher than our anticipated target of 1650W

20%??? What happened to:

The chip will consume less than 300w, for a performance of 504 Gh/s.

Sounds like you missed the power target by quite a bit more than 20%.

they didnt say what their asics draw.  they said what the system draws at the wall.. which includes a built in controller, plenty of fans, a liquid cooling system (pumps).  and they confirmed that their power conversion circuitry is what theyre redesigning for the new version...

anyway... what any asic company says (based on simulation) before they get their chips back, and what they say (when its fully tested and includes all the real-world losses) after their chips are in a system always seem to be different.. and i cant think of anyone who delivered a system with the same power draw as their specs.   can you?

WOW, my legitimate concerns have been confirmed now, and you have been proved to be on the wrong side of this debate...yet you continue to defend CT despite their clear failures.  Are you a shill?  Or just defending a position you've over-invested yourself in emotionally?
He's one of their angel investors, I don't know why you would attack him for feeling invested, he's literally invested.
hero member
Activity: 608
Merit: 500
If they shipped the expected 2000GHs now, started mining in Feb '14, and took the default assumptions on the website, you'd be looking at a lifetime cumulative return of $9190.  I know, this is a completely fictional number, but we have to start somewhere.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/ac1fbf2676

Sadly, reality happened.  They are shipping 1800GHs now, so you can start mining in Feb '14.  Lifetime cumulative return of $7510.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/9090810af2

You're down about $1700, but you're still very profitable.

Batch 1 might start mining Feb '14. Those cost $15,750 and are thus going to be a huge loss due to the delay. Who knows when Batch 2 will ship.
Ouch.  My bad; those are batch 1 units?

$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... $1190 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/cafe5bf642
$14k, 1.8TH, 1.6kW... -$460 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/30119efaf4
$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... -$6000 lifetime cumulative return if started in Mar '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/e5232335d0

So, point still stands; CoinTerra is minimizing customer losses by shipping early at customer request.  That said, $14k for batch 1...  wow.
You really think difficulty would be over 20 billion in May?  Even with hashfast and cointerra shipping that is somewhat unlikely, 10 billion is more realistic in the spring.  If you really think difficulty is 22 billion in May then nobody would be buying KnC units at all.

The problem isn't that these won't ROI, it's that these now require huge power infrastructure, it's not cheap or easy to come up with the kind of power solutions needed to run these and for people who've basically sent all their spare cash to cointerra it's not exactly easy to come up with tons more money to build a setup capable of running crazy 2000 watt sucking rigs.  And if you've already invested in new power lines/PDUs/cabinets/etc it might be a loss. 
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
If they shipped the expected 2000GHs now, started mining in Feb '14, and took the default assumptions on the website, you'd be looking at a lifetime cumulative return of $9190.  I know, this is a completely fictional number, but we have to start somewhere.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/ac1fbf2676

Sadly, reality happened.  They are shipping 1800GHs now, so you can start mining in Feb '14.  Lifetime cumulative return of $7510.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/9090810af2

You're down about $1700, but you're still very profitable.

Batch 1 might start mining Feb '14. Those cost $15,750 and are thus going to be a huge loss due to the delay. Who knows when Batch 2 will ship.
Ouch.  My bad; those are batch 1 units?

$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... $1190 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/cafe5bf642
$14k, 1.8TH, 1.6kW... -$460 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/30119efaf4
$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... -$6000 lifetime cumulative return if started in Mar '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/e5232335d0

So, point still stands; CoinTerra is minimizing customer losses by shipping early at customer request.  That said, $14k for batch 1...  wow.

In fairness, Batch 1 people are being gifted Batch 3 units also. Although that may take until April
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
If they shipped the expected 2000GHs now, started mining in Feb '14, and took the default assumptions on the website, you'd be looking at a lifetime cumulative return of $9190.  I know, this is a completely fictional number, but we have to start somewhere.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/ac1fbf2676

Sadly, reality happened.  They are shipping 1800GHs now, so you can start mining in Feb '14.  Lifetime cumulative return of $7510.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/9090810af2

You're down about $1700, but you're still very profitable.

Batch 1 might start mining Feb '14. Those cost $15,750 and are thus going to be a huge loss due to the delay. Who knows when Batch 2 will ship.
Ouch.  My bad; those are batch 1 units?

$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... $1190 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/cafe5bf642
$14k, 1.8TH, 1.6kW... -$460 lifetime cumulative return if started in Feb '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/30119efaf4
$14k, 2TH, 1.6kW... -$6000 lifetime cumulative return if started in Mar '14.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/e5232335d0

So, point still stands; CoinTerra is minimizing customer losses by shipping early at customer request.  That said, $14k for batch 1...  wow.
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
If they shipped the expected 2000GHs now, started mining in Feb '14, and took the default assumptions on the website, you'd be looking at a lifetime cumulative return of $9190.  I know, this is a completely fictional number, but we have to start somewhere.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/ac1fbf2676

Sadly, reality happened.  They are shipping 1800GHs now, so you can start mining in Feb '14.  Lifetime cumulative return of $7510.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/9090810af2

You're down about $1700, but you're still very profitable.

Batch 1 might start mining Feb '14. Those cost $15,750 and are thus going to be a huge loss due to the delay. Who knows when Batch 2 will ship.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
The way I understand it, they're shipping underperforming product because they needed more time, but their customers expressed a desire to have sooner rather than later despite the underperformance.  As an engineer myself, that's a hell of a lot of pride to swallow for the sake of the customers.  Hats off to the Cointerra team, and congrats on shipping your first product.

+1

I think Cointerra have done fairly well. Their development and production delays have amounted to a ~1 month delay, and some performance loss for the batch 1 customers. Batch 1 was only ever the least risky option in the early ASICminer and Avalon days.

To put it in perspective, HashFast customers got 3 month delays, and their first board design couldn't be used for a viable product. BFL were just a total joke, they didn't deliver a viable product 6 months late. There's been some problem with all manufacturers offerings, whether it's late delivery, high prices, flaky units or over promised specs (not to forget outright project failure). This is probably the best compromise so far, and I was initially a Cointerra sceptic.

It's still a compromise though, for the people who get this V.1 board, it could make a not so insignificant difference to their profitability. Hopefully those people will be consigned to the December customers, who could be fairly compensated with V.2 board units in March. Hopefully the re-design will be complete by then for that to happen.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
The way I understand it, they're shipping underperforming product because they needed more time, but their customers expressed a desire to have sooner rather than later despite the underperformance.  As an engineer myself, that's a hell of a lot of pride to swallow for the sake of the customers.  Hats off to the Cointerra team, and congrats on shipping your first product.

what are they going to do to reimburse for the lack of GH/s Huh
O.o  They're already doing it.  I'll use http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ to compare.  

If they shipped the expected 2000GHs now, started mining in Feb '14, and took the default assumptions on the website, you'd be looking at a lifetime cumulative return of $9190.  I know, this is a completely fictional number, but we have to start somewhere.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/ac1fbf2676

Sadly, reality happened.  They are shipping 1800GHs now, so you can start mining in Feb '14.  Lifetime cumulative return of $7510.  http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/9090810af2

You're down about $1700, but you're still very profitable.

The other options is to ship a (probably) fully functional 2000GHs unit (probably) next month, and you can start hashing Mar '14.  Using the same assumptions as above, you'd see a lifetime cumulative return of $2000. http://thegenesisblock.com/mining/a/de9c8dad44

Cointerra is doing right by their customers by acknowledging reality, and shipping the product when it is most profitable to the customer.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
StayFocus and LIVE
The way I understand it, they're shipping underperforming product because they needed more time, but their customers expressed a desire to have sooner rather than later despite the underperformance.  As an engineer myself, that's a hell of a lot of pride to swallow for the sake of the customers.  Hats off to the Cointerra team, and congrats on shipping your first product.

what are they going to do to reimburse for the lack of GH/s Huh
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
StayFocus and LIVE
Congratulations to the CoinTerra team! I know how exciting it is to send your new baby out the door for the first time! Good work guys (and gals if there are any!).

don't believe nothing this guys says, this guy is a liar!!! INABA where you at on ur marach?
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
The way I understand it, they're shipping underperforming product because they needed more time, but their customers expressed a desire to have sooner rather than later despite the underperformance.  As an engineer myself, that's a hell of a lot of pride to swallow for the sake of the customers.  Hats off to the Cointerra team, and congrats on shipping your first product.
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
The production units that we have assembled and tested so far are running at between 1.63TH/s and 1.72TH/s with power draw at the wall between 1900W and 2100W – typically 20% higher than our anticipated target of 1650W

20%??? What happened to:

The chip will consume less than 300w, for a performance of 504 Gh/s.

Sounds like you missed the power target by quite a bit more than 20%.

they didnt say what their asics draw.  they said what the system draws at the wall.. which includes a built in controller, plenty of fans, a liquid cooling system (pumps).  and they confirmed that their power conversion circuitry is what theyre redesigning for the new version...

anyway... what any asic company says (based on simulation) before they get their chips back, and what they say (when its fully tested and includes all the real-world losses) after their chips are in a system always seem to be different.. and i cant think of anyone who delivered a system with the same power draw as their specs.   can you?

WOW, my legitimate concerns have been confirmed now, and you have been proved to be on the wrong side of this debate...yet you continue to defend CT despite their clear failures.  Are you a shill?  Or just defending a position you've over-invested yourself in emotionally?
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
hero member
Activity: 702
Merit: 500
20% missed power target. 2 circuits instead of 1. You can still probably get away with using 20A circuit @ average US home.

I remember reading the post here when you guys announced the chip for a first time. Glad I didn't fall for that. Same goes to hashfast.

short memory? it has two power supplies and it has always been a requirement to plug them into separate household circuits if you live in the usa because most households are on 15 amp circuits by default.  those that have got 20 amp circuits may be ok.. and in fact, most homes have a 240 volt supply for the oven or dryer, so you could plug it in there if you preferred (one circuit).... to deliver the same power that us europeans have got (from every socket)
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Owner, Minersource.net
20% missed power target. 2 circuits instead of 1. You can still probably get away with using 20A circuit @ average US home.

I remember reading the post here when you guys announced the chip for a first time. Glad I didn't fall for that. Same goes to hashfast.

Nope. trying to pull 2000w from a single US 120v is a terrible idea.
sr. member
Activity: 272
Merit: 250
20% missed power target. 2 circuits instead of 1. You can still probably get away with using 20A circuit @ average US home.

I remember reading the post here when you guys announced the chip for a first time. Glad I didn't fall for that. Same goes to hashfast.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Congratulations to the CoinTerra team! I know how exciting it is to send your new baby out the door for the first time! Good work guys (and gals if there are any!).
hero member
Activity: 702
Merit: 500
The production units that we have assembled and tested so far are running at between 1.63TH/s and 1.72TH/s with power draw at the wall between 1900W and 2100W – typically 20% higher than our anticipated target of 1650W

20%??? What happened to:

The chip will consume less than 300w, for a performance of 504 Gh/s.

Sounds like you missed the power target by quite a bit more than 20%.

they didnt say what their asics draw.  they said what the system draws at the wall.. which includes a built in controller, plenty of fans, a liquid cooling system (pumps).  and they confirmed that their power conversion circuitry is what theyre redesigning for the new version...

anyway... what any asic company says (based on simulation) before they get their chips back, and what they say (when its fully tested and includes all the real-world losses) after their chips are in a system always seem to be different.. and i cant think of anyone who delivered a system with the same power draw as their specs.   can you?

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