Author

Topic: Collapse or dollar= collapse of Rome= armagedon, but WHY!? (Read 6004 times)

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
I'm looking forward to the debt I hold (denominated in USD) becomes worthless.

haha yes, that's one reason why i'm paying it off slowly by paying a relatively small amount per month so that at this rate it would take 3 years to pay off.

By that time my bitcoin holdings would probably be so large that i'd laugh at the debt.

I should lend more fiat but i doubt the bank will let me with my current credit rating and being a student.
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
We are joking about it, but if bitcoin really goes mainstream, that could have serious economics consequences. That, indeed, could provoke the collapse of the dollar (but even in this case, not the collapse of society).

See the pessimistic view of this member: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoins-dystopian-future-180798
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
Yes, in Zimbabwe, debtors were also happy, they were clean of debt in no time.

Banks saw their balances go to zero. Credits and debits were worthless.

So, the 90% or so of ex-debtors are all happy in the middle of an economy in wrecks Smiley


So the best debtor (USA) will be ultra happy to see his debt dissapear and thats why he will adopt bitcoin with determinism hehe.
hero member
Activity: 778
Merit: 1002
And the biggest debtor in the world is... Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
Yes, in Zimbabwe, debtors were also happy, they were clean of debt in no time.

Banks saw their balances go to zero. Credits and debits were worthless.

So, the 90% or so of ex-debtors are all happy in the middle of an economy in wrecks Smiley
hero member
Activity: 778
Merit: 1002
I'm looking forward to the debt I hold (denominated in USD) becomes worthless.
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
Krafwerk wouldn't never believe for the things their music would be helpful. Even to justify the most strong society colapse since the Ice Age.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Would you like to place a wager?  Wink

Yes, I bet 1 bitcoin that this society's collapse will be by far the most sustainable collapse in the 10'000 years old history of the living cartoon of the human: the citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBTn_3DBYo

We measurable parameters and dates in order to make a bet.

Soonish™ ;-)
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Would you like to place a wager?  Wink

Yes, I bet 1 bitcoin that this society's collapse will be by far the most sustainable collapse in the 10'000 years old history of the living cartoon of the human: the citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBTn_3DBYo

We measurable parameters and dates in order to make a bet.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Would you like to place a wager?  Wink

Yes, I bet 1 bitcoin that this society's collapse will be by far the most sustainable collapse in the 10'000 years old history of the living cartoon of the human: the citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBTn_3DBYo
update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Ke_83asCk
legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
If the US economy ends up in a situation where it won't be able to support a big army, that won't happen because of problems with the US dollar.
The problems with the US dollar are a symptom of more deep problems, like the low rate of saving, the external capital dependency, the deindustrialization, loss of competitiveness, etc.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1000
The idea that the dollar is going to collapse because of all the debt doesn't make much sense. At most, there might be some inflation, but 10% of inflation will be enough to destroy major part of the debt in 10 years, even with higher interest rates.

Anyway, no society collapses because of the collapse of its currency. Any people comparing this to the collapse of the Roman Western Empire is misleading the Op. The Roman currency was seriously debased, but it wasn't this kind of problems that took Rome down, but the sword.


What do you think will happen to America when it can't afford an army and all of those countries they killed 1000's.. 10 000's, 100 000's in are going to do....
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Armstrong thinks we can reform politics.

Based upon your links to him, I subscribed to Armstrong's blog.  After reading his (numerous) posts for three days, I agree with your assessment.  Armstrong is a worshiper of the Great Father Guv.  He thinks the Father is currently abusive and misguided, but ultimately good.

What is your opinion of Armstrong's computer model?  I'm fascinated by esoteric numbers and the work of Randall Carlson.

I documented the model's track record:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5464897
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Collapse of the dollar isn't the end of the world.

Standard of living outside the US will actually get better as export countries will need to serve domestic need rather than export their labor and product to US.

That common thinking is incorrect. The demarcation between domestic and export won't exist in the Knowledge Age:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7011575
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Armstrong thinks we can reform politics.

Based upon your links to him, I subscribed to Armstrong's blog.  After reading his (numerous) posts for three days, I agree with your assessment.  Armstrong is a worshiper of the Great Father Guv.  He thinks the Father is currently abusive and misguided, but ultimately good.

What is your opinion of Armstrong's computer model?  I'm fascinated by esoteric numbers and the work of Randall Carlson.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Collapse of the dollar isn't the end of the world.

Standard of living outside the US will actually get better as export countries will need to serve domestic need rather than export their labor and product to US.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Would you like to place a wager?  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
As if technology ever could exist beyond a collectivist society!

I create programs individually. There is no collectivism required.

This is the Knowledge Age revolution. People will create and distribute digitally without any collectivism involved in their efforts.

BS. As @onlyu wrote: Your programming environment and the whole infrastructure behind it is a hypercollectivist monstrum, which will disappear as soon as the society collapses, and it will, as all societies did. Tainter's law.
That's why I as an anarchist support your efforts to create a true anonymous crypto currency. No society can survive in an anonymous environment, where nothing can be stopped. All kind of crime (you need some examples?) could be distributed, and that's never ever the ground on which a society is able to survive. Crypto is not the tool to expand the 10'000 years old society/economy (patriarchy) even more. It is a tool to destroy it and bring back anarchy (self-sufficient communities), which is the norm among the homines sapientes and their ancestors (1 million and more years). Societies (homo oeconomicus/collectivism) are only short, pandemic aberrations in this grand supercycle.

Knowledge(!) Age Revolution? I would rather call it a revolution of self destruction and stupidity:
http://www.bcreative.al/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Human-Evolution.jpg
full member
Activity: 165
Merit: 100
As if technology ever could exist beyond a collectivist society!

I create programs individually. There is no collectivism required.

This is the Knowledge Age revolution. People will create and distribute digitally without any collectivism involved in their efforts.

Your program has high dependency.

The platform it run on required a group of developers to build it. And the platform required a server to run it, which required who know how many years of human effort.

And the server will need hosting, electricity.

Hosting required human to have the knowledge on how to build building and so on and other dependency. Same for electricity.


We live in a highly depended society. Saying one person alone can create something useful with no dependency show the arrogance of people in general.








legendary
Activity: 1455
Merit: 1033
Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
The idea that the dollar is going to collapse because of all the debt doesn't make much sense. At most, there might be some inflation, but 10% of inflation will be enough to destroy major part of the debt in 10 years, even with higher interest rates.

Anyway, no society collapses because of the collapse of its currency. Any people comparing this to the collapse of the Roman Western Empire is misleading the Op. The Roman currency was seriously debased, but it wasn't this kind of problems that took Rome down, but the sword.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Armstrong thinks we can reform politics.

Based upon your links to him, I subscribed to Armstrong's blog.  After reading his (numerous) posts for three days, I agree with your assessment.  Armstrong is a worshiper of the Great Father Guv.  He thinks the Father is currently abusive and misguided, but ultimately good.

What is your opinion of Armstrong's computer model?  I'm fascinated by esoteric numbers and the work of Randall Carlson.
legendary
Activity: 2884
Merit: 1115
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Well it would create a fiat and bank run on the USD to other currencies
However there is a basket of available currencies to run towards or resources heck even Bitcoin
So what will happen is that the USA will lose a fair bit of its reserve currency status and cause a case of contagion
That may be contained but not without doing some serious damage to jobs and industries
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
US needs to go away gracefully rather than pissing everyone off and then still implode from within.


Don't make us "bring democracy" to your country!


Seriously though, don't blame all of us for our governments misguided policies. There are a lot of Americans that do not support the endless wars and economic imperialism.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
As if technology ever could exist beyond a collectivist society!

I create programs individually. There is no collectivism required.

This is the Knowledge Age revolution. People will create and distribute digitally without any collectivism involved in their efforts.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Those who are expecting dollar collapse and hyperinflation are clueless about history. Never in the history of the world, not even in Rome, has the global reserve currency collapsed. It doesn't happen. Only revolutionary governments which can't sell their own bonds collapse into hyperinflation.

Rather what is happening now is the "borrower is slave to lender". The USA is taking control of the globe now and the dollar will become very strong. They will track down all wealth globally and confiscate it. All the pawns of the USA (Europe, Japan, etc) and the fake antagonists (Russia, China) are on board this plan to share information to track down "tax evasion" which is a code word for Totalitarianism.

Again find the link in my prior post and read that entire Mad Max thread so you can re-educate yourselves.

Civilizations (problem solving societies) collapse because of the diminishing return on additional investment in additional complexity. Tainter's Law.

http://www.jayhanson.org/page134.htm

No they collapse because of socialism and collectivism when the private sector shrinks to for example 25% of GDP (and govt+regulation compliance is 75% of GDP as is the case in the USA and Europe now), which is an orthogonal property to knowledge formation. Here are a few examples of the cancer upon us now:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/21/unions-out-of-control-the-real-poison-pill/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/21/how-bureaucrats-undermine-everything/

Don't conflate the perils of collectivism with the beauty of technological advance.

We already had this discussion in two other threads already and I am not going to debate you again, as I already shown the idiotic illogic of your conflation of the two:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6513193

Armstrong and you know really nothing about anthropology and civilization, when I compare it with Tainter.
As if technology ever could exist beyond a collectivist society! Collectivist society is a tautology.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Let's work and hope for the exponential rate of change with a technological frontier and the bastards fading gracefully away in diapers. Wink  Cool
full member
Activity: 218
Merit: 101
US needs to go away gracefully rather than pissing everyone off and then still implode from within.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
.....
Armstrong thinks we can reform politics. I am saying politics always ends up in Totalitarianism. The only thing that has saved mankind every time is a frontier. Before it was geographical escape (e.g. birth of the U.S.A.) and cash (e.g. gold), but now those frontiers are being closed. So we only have crypto-currency (and internet businesses perhaps even anonymously, e.g. programming work,  to escape Totalitarianism) remaining as a frontier.
Bump.

Although the frontiers appear to be appearing more and more rapidly, exponential rates of change of course.
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
The economy nowadays is more global than ever.
....
The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.



Store food and water.. they will be worth their weight in silver.
I have a deal for you.

I will sell food and water now for 1/10 their weight in silver.

You can make ten times your investment when the collapse comes!

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I have no idea why Anonymint quoted me because he didn't adress anything of what I said.

I didn't quote you, but I did address what you wrote:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6886606


Quote
The current China/Russia mess will definitely affect a lot of things in the US. The decline of the dollar just sped up dramatically. We will see it at the gas pump first

Yeah definately.

Relative to other fiat currencies, the dollar will get stronger over the next several years. For example, China's latest bond auction failed. The rest of the world will collapse sending capital flowing into the dollar. The USA still has the most powerful military (they are suckering Putin into taking on conflicts that will bankrupt Russia, it wasn't a lack of military capability rather he was intentionally forced him into Ukraine by toppling his government in Ukraine).

Yeah must have gotten that quoting wrong, sorry mate.


But you are missing my point. What you're describing has already happened but sure its ofcourse still happening but there is much now that points to this being changed perhaps this year. The QE3 is supposedly over 100 billion a month yet nobody knows because the FED is private, that's there to push down the price of the dollar. Ofcourse the other fiat currencies of the world will fall first, but after they've collapsed only the dollar will be left. The rest of the world had this couch called the dollar to fall back on, so to say, the USA won't have anything, their fall will go to rock bottom... sucks for the americans that don't know about bitcoin, because that won't save many people. I think this USD-e will go not to the moon but to another galaxy. Imagine the millions of patriots learning about Bitcoin. "Hmm, what to choose.. something american or something thats not". Anyway, drifting off topic, ill take some time later to read threw the mad max post..
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Weary of irrational biases
From:    AnonyMint
Date:    Thu, May 22, 2014 11:53 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>

I don't understand your posts.

What, specifically, is your disagreement with Armstrong?

Go to the end of the Dark Enlightenment and Max Max threads in the Politics & Society forum for more history on my debate with him. Also the thread on designing a perfect society.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6567660

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6889554

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6496672


Armstrong thinks we can reform politics. I am saying politics always ends up in Totalitarianism. The only thing that has saved mankind every time is a frontier. Before it was geographical escape (e.g. birth of the U.S.A.) and cash (e.g. gold), but now those frontiers are being closed. So we only have crypto-currency (and internet businesses perhaps even anonymously, e.g. programming work,  to escape Totalitarianism) remaining as a frontier.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Maybe somebody will argue the "what if we lose electricity and Internet?" argument. If the world slips that far down, gold won't be valuable either. That's when we value food, water, medicine, and guns.

Gold fills the void between functioning society and Mad max. In the former crypto-currency is money, and in the latter only food is money. Gold is money in between the two in times of crisis.

Once we have more individual market makers trading bullion for crypto-currency on decentralized exchanges, then bullion will regain is transportability by wire via crypto-currency. The two are synergistic.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I have no idea why Anonymint quoted me because he didn't adress anything of what I said.

I didn't quote you, but I did address what you wrote:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6886606


Quote
The current China/Russia mess will definitely affect a lot of things in the US. The decline of the dollar just sped up dramatically. We will see it at the gas pump first

Yeah definately.

Relative to other fiat currencies, the dollar will get stronger over the next several years. For example, China's latest bond auction failed. The rest of the world will collapse sending capital flowing into the dollar. The USA still has the most powerful military (they are suckering Putin into taking on conflicts that will bankrupt Russia, it wasn't a lack of military capability rather he was intentionally forced him into Ukraine by toppling his government in Ukraine).
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Survival skills will be paramount as well if things go down hill fast. I always joke that if it does happen I am going to go stay with my hillbilly relatives who can hunt and cook just about anything that moves.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
I really think if there is a major crisis that bitcoin stands a better chance than gold. Gold was traditionally valuable because it was #1 pretty, #2 scarce, #3 non perishable.

Bitcoin has the second and third qualities. I'd argue it has the first too. It's beauty is in it's math and decentralization. It is a beautiful idea. Everyone on this forum is very likely here because they are attracted to its beauty.

Maybe somebody will argue the "what if we lose electricity and Internet?" argument. If the world slips that far down, gold won't be valuable either. That's when we value food, water, medicine, and guns.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
One year supply of food would be worth more than a bag full of gold if something bad really did happen. A bag full of medicine would be worth all the food a person had. And I still think a couple barrels of gasoline would still be worth more than a bar of gold. The problems with food, medicine, and gasoline is they are are somewhat perishable. Gold isn't. But I really think the culture trend to value gold came out of a different age and culture. Back then gold wasn't competing with a couple of barrels of gasoline, a years worth of MREs, or a bag full of penicillin, morphine, and Tylenol. Had those things existed back then, I think the narrative surrounding gold today would be different. Always looking towards the past can help definitely understand the future, until it doesn't.  The reason why the future is different is because some key factors have changed.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Quote
You cannot easily trade physical gold/silver...obvious right?  There has to be something else...something controlled, something scarce, something people agree is valuable...oh wait   Cool Cool Cool

Yeah what could that be  Grin BTC will skyrocket multiple times for so many reasons its redicilous.

@Jabo: Yes, gold/silver is not valuable for usage. But compared to internet and electricity it's rather good as a store of value. And most people actually value being able to store value Wink


But yeah, i'd store food for at least 1 year(if I had a house) before i'd buy gold.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I have no idea why Anonymint quoted me because he didn't adress anything of what I said.


Quote
The current China/Russia mess will definitely affect a lot of things in the US. The decline of the dollar just sped up dramatically. We will see it at the gas pump first

Yeah definately. I just read a news article in one of the most read swedish newspapers that the oil price will rise. They claimed it was because of summer and that it always does because of higher demand. Yet I got the feeling they hinted on it being more than the regular.

I would guess this is why they are in Nigeria now aswell. Africom just deployed some 3000 troops in there this week I think. Actually it seems like the whole of africa and not only nigeria. Nigeria is nr 2 economy in AFrica btw, after South Africa(which is the S in bricS).

The pawns are being pushed out to the front at all sides, interesting times.
full member
Activity: 315
Merit: 103
I have been reading about the collapse of dollar for several months and know that the issue is a years or even dozen of years old topic. I dont think i fully understand it but im quite leaning on the side that the collapse will happen, but even if i have a hard time believing the total apocalypse some of the people are portaing it to be... (like "the biggest event in human history" (this is the stupidest phrase i have heard so far).

Can someone concretely eplain to others WHY should the collapse of dollar mean a depression bigger then the one in 1930?

Simple quick points, because i dont see it...?


High dependency on oil and foreign good is the reason why people should worry.

Katrina disaster is a good model to see what will happen when shtf.
sr. member
Activity: 249
Merit: 250
The economy nowadays is more global than ever.

The dollar is the major currency used worldwide in trade, even if for example France wants to buy something from Japan, they will not use Euros nor Yen, they'll use dollars.

If when the dollar collapses, the whole world will feel the pain.

Also, many banks and governments have huge amounts of dollars or dollar-denominated bonds and security and other financial assets that are directly tied to the dollar. And not to mention when the dollar collapses, wall street will too. 

Also, the USA is by far the biggest importer of pretty much everything, but all they really export is dollars. In other words they are pretty much pumping (worthless) dollars in the world economy while they buy all the goods. When the dollar loses it's value (and it will as many countries are finally seeing the scam for what it is), most industries will not be able to sell their products anymore, since the USA will not be able to afford it anymore, which will trigger a domino-effect much bigger than the housing bubble (which also started in the USA and had a big influence on the whole world).

The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.



I agree except for your last sentence. It is when something the human race never had before, technology, comes in and saves the day.

It is clear why traditional gold and silver were valuable going back for thousands of years, but I am not sure if there will be a run on it again.  It just isn't that useful in my daily life.  Yes, it is scarce, and it is pretty, and it has a few industrial resources, but aside from that, I don't really need to have gold or silver laying around my house, and even if I did, I wouldn't use them often.  To me, what is valuable is electricity, internet, food, water.  And something else is very important.  That is oil.  To me, oil is far more important to the economy than gold.  I can put gas in my car and use it to drive to work.  What will I do if I have a gold bar at my house?  Hope somebody will buy it from me?  I think we live in a new age.  During the dark ages in Europe, it was pretty cool to have some gold.  Today, it is pretty cool to have some electricity, oil, and 4g.  A different age, and people will value different things. 

You cannot easily trade physical gold/silver...obvious right?  There has to be something else...something controlled, something scarce, something people agree is valuable...oh wait   Cool Cool Cool
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1001
mining is so 2012-2013
The economy nowadays is more global than ever.

The dollar is the major currency used worldwide in trade, even if for example France wants to buy something from Japan, they will not use Euros nor Yen, they'll use dollars.

If when the dollar collapses, the whole world will feel the pain.

Also, many banks and governments have huge amounts of dollars or dollar-denominated bonds and security and other financial assets that are directly tied to the dollar. And not to mention when the dollar collapses, wall street will too. 

Also, the USA is by far the biggest importer of pretty much everything, but all they really export is dollars. In other words they are pretty much pumping (worthless) dollars in the world economy while they buy all the goods. When the dollar loses it's value (and it will as many countries are finally seeing the scam for what it is), most industries will not be able to sell their products anymore, since the USA will not be able to afford it anymore, which will trigger a domino-effect much bigger than the housing bubble (which also started in the USA and had a big influence on the whole world).

The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.



I agree except for your last sentence. It is when something the human race never had before, technology, comes in and saves the day.

It is clear why traditional gold and silver were valuable going back for thousands of years, but I am not sure if there will be a run on it again.  It just isn't that useful in my daily life.  Yes, it is scarce, and it is pretty, and it has a few industrial resources, but aside from that, I don't really need to have gold or silver laying around my house, and even if I did, I wouldn't use them often.  To me, what is valuable is electricity, internet, food, water.  And something else is very important.  That is oil.  To me, oil is far more important to the economy than gold.  I can put gas in my car and use it to drive to work.  What will I do if I have a gold bar at my house?  Hope somebody will buy it from me?  I think we live in a new age.  During the dark ages in Europe, it was pretty cool to have some gold.  Today, it is pretty cool to have some electricity, oil, and 4g.  A different age, and people will value different things. 
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Weary of irrational biases
From:    AnonyMint
Date:    Thu, May 22, 2014 11:53 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>

I don't understand your posts.

What, specifically, is your disagreement with Armstrong?
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
Anonymint: you say the dollar wont collapse because the third world countries own inflation will force them to flee into the dollar. That is happening now.

But what happens when China and or Russia/BRICS back their own currency with gold? Even if they don't, there's a few big countries out there that can keep up their own currency threw establishing a copy of the dollar-system.


The similiarities with Romes decline and fall is obvious. The differences are not. Because of technology(Internet and to some extent bitcoin) currencies will fly from here to there in no-time. It won't be a 300 year decline. That was Rome, 2000 years ago. The great decline after that took 30 years. One after that about 3 years. This won't even take 3 months. Perhaps 3 days.

If China made a statement they'd buy Russian oil in ruble and export goods with CNY(Happened this week fyi) backed by gold and that India, Brasil and South africa + a few other countries was on board(happening right now in St. petersburg) the shit would truly hit the fan - for the FED and their dollar.


I love that we have a historic perspective here, but there is 1 more thing to have in mind:

Pulses. Conraction and expansion of circles. Time going faster and faster until it goes BOOOM and then going slower and slower. Big bang, basically.

When Rome failed it might have taken some 300 years for it to actually go from Great to Dead, but all events after that have decreased that time in an almost exact pattern.

I could go on, and would love to, but..

As always, I lose interest in writing. Someone pick up the torch, im out


/Guru

The current China/Russia mess will definitely affect a lot of things in the US. The decline of the dollar just sped up dramatically. We will see it at the gas pump first.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Weary of irrational biases
From:    AnonyMint
Date:    Thu, May 22, 2014 11:53 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will probably be my last communication on these sort of debates,
because I can't convince someone who has an irrational bias and refuses to
be objective and based in fact and analysis.


http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/22/the-end-goal/

Quote from: Armstrong
REPLY: I would like to see something like that happen.
However, we must keep in mind that we require the crash and burn. Society
moves through waves of Creative Destruction. We must see the system
collapse and that will then set the stage for a rebirth. The object is to
be there when that happens. This will be the moment of truth. Society will
swing either toward more authoritarian or toward real democracy.

We need the true checks and balance of the people divorced from career
politicians. Eliminating direct taxation will eliminate the corruption and
lobbying of politicians to carve out exclusions. Republics are the WORST
form of government for they ALWAYS become the most corrupt. Even a king is
better for he is either a madman or a saint – he cannot be bribed on the
whims of people or chance.

Eliminating direct taxation, which the founders of the US did originally,
it will eliminate the need to hoard cash offshore. Eliminate direct
taxation and you will lower the cost of labor. Eliminate unions that serve
no functional purpose and only promotes higher wages without improving
skills. To get ahead, people have to keep pace with technology or be
outdated in the workforce watching their labor value depreciate. If people
understand the technology cycle they will grasp the idea that they must
increase their value by expanding their skills.

You've observed history and seen that never once has any political system
been stable and they always devolve to Totalitarianism at the end game.
Yet you still come back for more sloppy seconds, thirds, and Nths.

You've observed history and seen that the technologies for global control
and the level of global control have radically increased. Yet you deny the
global hegemony that will result from your idealistic delusion above.

You've observed history and seen that the only escape and freedom has ever
come in the form of a frontier where the oppressed can compete against the
cancer and thus survival of the human race.

Yet now you say we can just burn without a frontier and reform.

You've fucking lost your mind.

Most people will masturbate like this, because they don't have the skills
to work on the information technology frontier so as to provide real
solutions.

You are too vested in the old school, in idealism about political
structure and top-down planning and organization.

You will be swept away by decentralization technology.

End.



http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/22/the-age-of-disinformation-hiding-truth-in-plain-sight/

Quote from: Armstrong
This is standard operational procedure and it is why I am
very skeptical about conspiracy theories. Trace the origins and you will
find that they are generated as part of a plot to hide in plain view the
truth. Take 911. There are now people who claim that there were no planes
at all and it was all staged.

...

So how do you cover-up what is in plain sight? The oldest trick in the
book is disinformation. You create the controversy centered around the
Twin Towers and exaggerate the claims. The majority will begin to see
through the exaggerations as a conspiracy theory and stop there never
looking further.

Indeed, the truth is in detailed analysis of the material facts rather
than broad-brushed generalizations such as when you Martin refuse to
analyze and accept the detailed factual analysis of the likes of Anthony
Sutton on the existence and manipulations funded by the globalists.
hero member
Activity: 518
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http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/22/historic-trade-deal-russia-china-will-this-dethrone-the-usd/

Backing their currencies with gold is irrelevant because their economies are turning down. All the capital inflow in the world can't make China's exports more profitable. China and Russia's problem is their top-down managed economies can't grow in real terms. China did mostly debt based pumped false growth. And Russia did oligarchy control over natural resources.

Oh yes it won't take 100s of years for these global bubble to collapse. The bottom of the collapse will be 2032 according the Armstrong's computer model (which has never been wrong).
newbie
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Anonymint: you say the dollar wont collapse because the third world countries own inflation will force them to flee into the dollar. That is happening now.

But what happens when China and or Russia/BRICS back their own currency with gold? Even if they don't, there's a few big countries out there that can keep up their own currency threw establishing a copy of the dollar-system.


The similiarities with Romes decline and fall is obvious. The differences are not. Because of technology(Internet and to some extent bitcoin) currencies will fly from here to there in no-time. It won't be a 300 year decline. That was Rome, 2000 years ago. The great decline after that took 30 years. One after that about 3 years. This won't even take 3 months. Perhaps 3 days.

If China made a statement they'd buy Russian oil in ruble and export goods with CNY(Happened this week fyi) backed by gold and that India, Brasil and South africa + a few other countries was on board(happening right now in St. petersburg) the shit would truly hit the fan - for the FED and their dollar.


I love that we have a historic perspective here, but there is 1 more thing to have in mind:

Pulses. Conraction and expansion of circles. Time going faster and faster until it goes BOOOM and then going slower and slower. Big bang, basically.

When Rome failed it might have taken some 300 years for it to actually go from Great to Dead, but all events after that have decreased that time in an almost exact pattern.

I could go on, and would love to, but..

As always, I lose interest in writing. Someone pick up the torch, im out


/Guru
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
If Rome Collapse - then it didn't occur to the people who lived through it ~ historians regard the 'collapse' of Rome as having lasted 300+ years at a time when the life expectancy was in the 30s to 40s and after the collapse did occur general nutrition and living standards actually improved.

Rome itself didn't disappear - people continued to live within Rome itself and the 'Roman Empire' technically got bigger, if we regard the Roman Catholic Church as being the proper continuation of the Empire.

True collapses rarely occur in history - they're more like fades into obscurity and often whimpers at that.


Try telling that to the 1.4 million people the fled Rome because the Totalitarianism was so onerous. See following post I had made in the Mad Max thread:


But the world has never ended, not even once. Therefore your doomsday preaching makes you a fool.

For the people depicted below, this world ended. Yeah I know "it is different now", and every generation thought it was.











Europe now has universal health care ...[snip]...

...Eventually the cancer eats itself, because we run out of other people's money. Now the Americans are falling into the same cancer that razed Europe in the early 19th century, with a repeat underway.



Actually what happened is the capital shifted to the Byzantine or Eastern Roman empire:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/21/unions-out-of-control-the-real-poison-pill/




Maybe the one exception was the Soviet Union where the collapse was almost instantaneous to the American perspective, although the Soviet people themselves were well evident it was a dying institution at best.


Educate yourself about the collapse of the Soviet Union:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/03/18/the-us-did-not-cause-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union-that-is-a-false-belief-on-both-sides/
hero member
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---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Eliminating career politicians doesn't eliminate the power vacuum   of democracy
From:    AnonyMint
Date:    Wed, May 21, 2014 8:24 pm
To:      "Armstrong Economics" <[email protected]>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/21/return-of-corruption-sorry-lobbying/

Quote from: Armstrong
it seems remarkable that companies would do anything but
lobby. A particularly vivid example was in 2004, when an aggressive
corporate campaign prompted Congress to grant a one-off tax holiday for
American companies to repatriate foreign earnings. The outright return on
lobbying costs, according to one of the various studies that served as
inspiration for the Strategas index, was $220 for each $1 spent. (see also
CNBC).

An you wonder WHY I say we FIRST need to get rid of career politicians –
one term only. Do that, and most else will start to fall into
place.

Martin, setting term limits won't resolve the perils of socialism and
collectivism.

You are naively expecting that if the people who are elected have no
incentive to remain in office then they will try to do what is best for
the citizens rather than appeasing lobbyists.

Again you fail to understand the deeper implications of the reference I
have sent you numerous times as follows.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984

Quote
Some Iron Laws of Political Economics

Mancur Olson, in his book The Logic Of Collective Action,
highlighted the central problem of politics in a democracy. The benefits
of political market-rigging can be concentrated to benefit particular
special interest groups, while the costs (in higher taxes, slower economic
growth, and many other second-order effects) are diffused through the
entire population.

The result is a scramble in which individual interest groups perpetually
seek to corner more and more rent from the system, while the incremental
costs of this behavior rise slowly enough that it is difficult to sustain
broad political opposition to the overall system of political privilege
and rent-seeking.

Let me spell it out for you. The "special interest groups" are the
citizens. The citizens form groups that demand the government give them
benefits. For example, you documented this recently "Germany is promising
a Woman’s Mother’s Pension  for those mothers whose children were born
before 1992. They will be entitled to early retirement at 63":

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/18/german-politicians-promise-unfunded-pensions-just-to-win/

Politicians get elected when they promise everyone everything. Term limits
won't change the fact that citizens view government as a collective trough
from which each citizen should vote to get their fair share. Problem is
that to appease this it requires politicians to promise more and more
share, i.e. government becomes a larger and larger share of the GDP
crowding out the private sector and ultimately reaching Totalitarianism as
we are entering now with the NSA and the hunt for all wealth to fund the
for example $200 trillion of actuarial obligations promised by the U.S.
government.

Martin you are just masturbating with the term limits idea. In fact, you
play right into the plans of the globalists, because reform of the
nation-states is part of the globalist agenda taking us towards
"international cooperation and oversight for transparency" which is a code
phrase for global hegemony and enslavement of the global citizen in the
power vacuum of global collectivism.

The only solution to rising to periodic end game of collectivism (when it
reaches Totalitarianism) has always been for the intellectuals and
forthright to seek out frontiers. In fact, your masturbation delusion
about term limits as a nirvana is in direct defiance of the your own model
which tells you there must always be a cycle. The cycle has always been
and will always be an oscillation between rising socialism and rising
frontiers.

So now the frontier of geography and cash are gone. So what is the next
frontier? It is of course technological.

Sooner or later you will realize I am correct.
hero member
Activity: 756
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If Rome Collapse - then it didn't occur to the people who lived through it ~ historians regard the 'collapse' of Rome as having lasted 300+ years at a time when the life expectancy was in the 30s to 40s and after the collapse did occur general nutrition and living standards actually improved.

Rome itself didn't disappear - people continued to live within Rome itself and the 'Roman Empire' technically got bigger, if we regard the Roman Catholic Church as being the proper continuation of the Empire.

True collapses rarely occur in history - they're more like fades into obscurity and often whimpers at that.

Maybe the one exception was the Soviet Union where the collapse was almost instantaneous to the American perspective, although the Soviet people themselves were well evident it was a dying institution at best.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
Those who are expecting dollar collapse and hyperinflation are clueless about history. Never in the history of the world, not even in Rome, has the global reserve currency collapsed. It doesn't happen. Only revolutionary governments which can't sell their own bonds collapse into hyperinflation.

Rather what is happening now is the "borrower is slave to lender". The USA is taking control of the globe now and the dollar will become very strong. They will track down all wealth globally and confiscate it. All the pawns of the USA (Europe, Japan, etc) and the fake antagonists (Russia, China) are on board this plan to share information to track down "tax evasion" which is a code word for Totalitarianism.

Again find the link in my prior post and read that entire Mad Max thread so you can re-educate yourselves.

Civilizations (problem solving societies) collapse because of the diminishing return on additional investment in additional complexity. Tainter's Law.

http://www.jayhanson.org/page134.htm

No they collapse because of socialism and collectivism when the private sector shrinks to for example 25% of GDP (and govt+regulation compliance is 75% of GDP as is the case in the USA and Europe now), which is an orthogonal property to knowledge formation. Here are a few examples of the cancer upon us now:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/21/unions-out-of-control-the-real-poison-pill/
http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/21/how-bureaucrats-undermine-everything/

Don't conflate the perils of collectivism with the beauty of technological advance.

We already had this discussion in two other threads already and I am not going to debate you again, as I already shown the idiotic illogic of your conflation of the two:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6513193
legendary
Activity: 1162
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Civilizations (problem solving societies) collapse because of the diminishing return on additional investment in additional complexity. Tainter's Law.

http://www.jayhanson.org/page134.htm
hero member
Activity: 703
Merit: 502
if you doubt the power of the dollar, then why is Europe in crisis?

What caused the crisis here if not for the crisis in the American economy?

Too much debt, corruption, graft, lack of productivity, an overly generous benefits system (in almost all countries), an attitude of entitlement, a currency that works perfectly for none of its members, inefficient and uncompetitive industry (Germany excepted) and a lack of labour mobility,  amongst other things.
legendary
Activity: 1722
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The economy nowadays is more global than ever.

The dollar is the major currency used worldwide in trade, even if for example France wants to buy something from Japan, they will not use Euros nor Yen, they'll use dollars.

If when the dollar collapses, the whole world will feel the pain.

Also, many banks and governments have huge amounts of dollars or dollar-denominated bonds and security and other financial assets that are directly tied to the dollar. And not to mention when the dollar collapses, wall street will too. 

Also, the USA is by far the biggest importer of pretty much everything, but all they really export is dollars. In other words they are pretty much pumping (worthless) dollars in the world economy while they buy all the goods. When the dollar loses it's value (and it will as many countries are finally seeing the scam for what it is), most industries will not be able to sell their products anymore, since the USA will not be able to afford it anymore, which will trigger a domino-effect much bigger than the housing bubble (which also started in the USA and had a big influence on the whole world).

The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.



Store food and water.. they will be worth their weight in silver.
full member
Activity: 211
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The reason is when the dollar is no longer accepted by foreign governments/companies, US consumer will have to pay huge premium to buy foreign good.

Welfare for US have to be cut and we all know US consumers are deeply depended on government handout and subsidy.
member
Activity: 290
Merit: 28
bitcoin is not a bubble, it is the pin
information and technology
Technology is useless on its own.

Legends speak of an ancient library, filled with all the worlds wisdom and knowledge. Wise men from across the lands journeyed for months or years to read the valuable scrolls or make their own contributions. The internet is better in every way than the Library of Alexandria, and what do we use it for? Cat pictures, selfies and porn.


Some other people create Bitcoin, Nxt and all those things that will truly change the world.

Just because you spend your days browsing for cat pictures doesn't mean the rest of the world does too. I don't, and I'm surrounded with a lot of people that do a lot more than that too. Heck I'm sure you probably don't too, in fact.

There will always be a "lower" class of people, if you allow me those words, and it's perfectly fine like that.
member
Activity: 290
Merit: 28
bitcoin is not a bubble, it is the pin
The economy nowadays is more global than ever.

The dollar is the major currency used worldwide in trade, even if for example France wants to buy something from Japan, they will not use Euros nor Yen, they'll use dollars.

If when the dollar collapses, the whole world will feel the pain.

Also, many banks and governments have huge amounts of dollars or dollar-denominated bonds and security and other financial assets that are directly tied to the dollar. And not to mention when the dollar collapses, wall street will too. 

Also, the USA is by far the biggest importer of pretty much everything, but all they really export is dollars. In other words they are pretty much pumping (worthless) dollars in the world economy while they buy all the goods. When the dollar loses it's value (and it will as many countries are finally seeing the scam for what it is), most industries will not be able to sell their products anymore, since the USA will not be able to afford it anymore, which will trigger a domino-effect much bigger than the housing bubble (which also started in the USA and had a big influence on the whole world).

The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.



I agree except for your last sentence. It is when something the human race never had before, technology, comes in and saves the day.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
when the local fiat collapses, all your daily grocery costs will skyrocket to unaffordable prices... when the population is hungry. there will be riots and overthrow of the government by people with nothing to lose.

that is the simple explanation version
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
The dollar isn't going to collapse, rather it will get much stronger as capital flees the peripheral economies (which is descending into riots, chaos, and provoking external war to redirect their citizens angst, e.g. Russia lashing out, China and Japan lashing out, even Argentina tried to renew the Falklands Islands war) to the only safe haven with the strongest military (and a mainland that can't be threatened by any foreign military) over the coming years. The global collapse is coming because of massive socialism and global debt-to-GDP ratio indebtedness above 200 year highs.

You need to read the entire following thread to understand:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-a-madmax-outcome-coming-before-2020-thus-do-we-need-anonymity-365141
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GLOBAL ECONOMIC MELTDOWN 2014
Four times in U.S. history in the collapse the Central Bank now known as Federal Reserve System of the United States has failed. The debt level of the U.S. has reached $202 trillion in fiat Federal Reserve notes, when all liabilities are counted. In the world history of the past 2000 years, an economic collapse has always occurred whenever fiat money came into existence. In America this would be the fourth collapse of the Federal Reserve System and fractional banking. Global consciousness is awakening, as evidenced by the growing number of "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations; a 2 hour 8 minute film named "Thrive” made at a cost of three million dollars by Foster Gamble and  was first shown 11/11/11 by ThriveMovement.com.  Fiat money has always ended this way and a description of what you can expect, can be obtained from us in a detailed 600 page document with 8 pages of bibliography. It describes in detail the decline in American prosperity; the increase in the size of government; the decrease in personal freedom; the growth of taxes; evidence that this is according to plan by an elite ruling group which hopes to merge the United States into world government on the basis of "equality" with less developed nations; the environmentalist movement shows to be an outgrowth of that plan.
            A PESSIMISTIC SCENARIO                                                 
A banking crisis and massive bailouts have already come to pass. The still unfolding scenario includes hyperinflation, collapse of the economy, a new global currency, domestic violence, U.N. "Peacekeeping" forces in the U.S., and the arrival of high tech feudalism.
             A REALISTIC SCENARIO                                               
What must be done if we are to avert the pessimistic scenario; list of specific measures that must be taken to stop the monetary binge; an appraisal of how severe the economic hangover will be; a checklist for personal survival and beyond.             
APPENDIX
           A. Structure and Function of the Federal Reserve                                       
           B. Natural Laws of Human behavior in Economics   
           C.  Is M1 Subtractive or Accumulative                                                           
Our Economic Adviser services are available during the Global Economic meltdown of 2012-2013 about matters Great Public Interest concerning;
1. Hyper-inflation
2. Oil prices no long denominated in dollars
3. Currencies issued by other nations of new gold backed currencies
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5. Collapse of the Real Estate banking industry
6. Collapse of the Commercial Banking industry 7. Fall of the republic
8. Cyber war for which there is presently no defense, replace nuclear war
9. Creation of an inter-planetarty Internet
10. Other matters of great public interest
4. Soaring gold prices
5. collapse of the Real Estate banking industry
6. Collapse of the Commercial Banking industry
7. Fall of the republic
8. Cyber war for which there is presently no defense, replace nuclear war
9. Creation of an interplanetary Internet
10. Other matters of great public interest
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The previous collapses of the first three Central banks of the United States.

The story of the Bank of North America, the nation's first central bank, which was formed even before the Constitution was drafted; the story of the First Bank of the United States, the nation's second central bank, which was formed in 1791; the massive inflation caused by both banks; the causes of their demise.
The Bank of North America existed from 1781 and collapsed before 1791

The Bank of North America was modeled closely after the Bank of England. Following the practice of fractional reserve, it was allowed to issue paper promissory notes in excess of actual deposits, but, since some gold and silver had to be held in the vault.

The intended result was that the Bank's paper would be accepted as money, which for a while, it was. Furthermore, the Bank was made the official depository for all federal funds and it almost immediately lent $1.2 million to the government, much of which was created out of nothing for that purpose. So, in spite of the limitations placed upon the Bank, and in spite of the fact that it was essentially a private institution, it was intended to be and, in fact, did function as a central bank.

The Bank of North America was fraudulent from the very start. The charter required that private investors provide $400,000 for the initial subscription. When Morris was unable to raise that money, he used his political influence to make up the shortfall out of government funds. In a maneuver that was nothing less than legalized embezzlement, he took the gold that had been lent to the United States from France and had it deposited in the Bank. Then, using this as a fractional-reserve base, he simply created the money that was needed for the subscription and lent it to himself and his associates. Such is the power of the secret science.'


It will be recalled that, after the Bank of North America was terminated and after the Constitutional Convention "closed the door on paper money," the United States enjoyed a period of unparalleled economic growth and prosperity. But, while the door may have been closed, the window was still open. Congress was denied the power to print money, but it was not denied the power to borrow it.
In the vocabulary of the common man, to borrow is to accept a loan of something that already exists. He is confused, therefore, when the banker issues money out of nothing and then says he is lending it. He appears to be lending but, in reality, he is creating.
Then, as now, the mysteries of banking vocabulary were not revealed to the average man, and it was difficult to understand

how privately-issued bank notes could serve precisely the same purpose as printing-press money—with precisely the same disastrous results. That being the case, the monetary and political scientists decided to end run the Constitution. Their plan was to establish a bank, to give that bank the power to create money, to lend most of that money to the government, and then to make sure the IOUs are accepted as money by the public. Congress, therefore, would not be emitting bills of credit. The bank would do that.
Thus, the First Bank of the United States was conceived.


there were definite limits to how far that process could go.



The Bank of North America , the nation’s first central bank formed in 1781 The bank did not have its charter renewed by Congress
The First Bank of the United States the nation’s second central bank existed from 1791 to 1811 and collapsed
The  Second bank of the United States the nation’s third central bank existed from 1816 to 1836 an collapsed
The Fourth Central Bank was created in 1913 and has not yet collapsed but it will

• It is incapable of accomplishing its stated objectives.
• It is a cartel operating against the public interest.       
• It is the supreme instrument of usury.                         
• It generates our most unfair tax.                                 
• It encourages war.                                                       
• It destabilizes the economy.                                         
• It is an instrument of totalitarianism.                           

It is incapable of achieving it stated objectives
FIRST REASON TO ABOLISH THE SYSTEM
MYTH ACCEPTED AS HISTORY
The accepted version of history is that the Federal Reserve was created to stabilize our economy. One of the most widely-used textbooks on this subject says: "It sprang from the panic of 1907, with its alarming epidemic of bank failures: the country was fed IT once and for all with the anarchy of unstable private banking." Even the most naive student must sense a grave contradiction between this cherished view and the System's actual performance. Since its inception, it has presided over the crashes of 1921 and 1929; the Great Depression of '29 to '39; recessions in '53, '57, '69, '75, and '81; a stock market "Black Monday" in '87; and a 1000% inflation which has destroyed 90% of the dollar's purchasing
3
power.
Let us be more specific on that last point. By 1990, an annual income of $10,000 was required to buy what took only $1,000 in 1914.4 That incredible loss in value was quietly transferred to the federal government in the form of hidden taxation, and the Federal Reserve System was the mechanism by which it was accomplished.
Actions have consequences. The consequences of wealth confis- cation by the Federal-Reserve mechanism are now upon us. In the current decade, corporate debt is soaring; personal debt is greater than ever; both business and personal bankruptcies are at an all-time high; banks and savings and loan associations are failing in
1.   Quoted by Kolko, Triumph, p. 235.
2.   Paul A. Samuelson, Economics, 8th ed. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1970), p. 272.
3.   See "Money, Banking, and Biblical Ethics," by Ronald H. Nash, Durell Journal of Money and Banking, February, 1990.
4.   When one considers that the income tax had just been introduced in 1913 and that such low figures were completely exempt, an income at that time of $1,000 actually was the equivalent of earning $15,400 now, before paying 35% taxes. When the amount now taken by state and local governments is added to the total bite, the figure is close to $20,000.
 
larger numbers than ever before; interest on the national debt is consuming more than half of our personal income tax; heavy industry largely has been replaced by overseas competitors; we are facing an international trade deficit for the first time in our history; 75% of downtown Los Angeles and other metropolitan areas is owned by foreigners; and the nation is in economic recession
FIRST REASON TO ABOLISH THE SYSTEM
That is the scorecard eighty years after the Federal Reserve was created supposedly to stabilize our economy! There can be no argument that the System has failed in its stated objectives. Furthermore, after all this time, after repeated changes in personnel, after operating under both political parties, after numerous experiments in monetary philosophy, after almost a hundred revisions to its charter, and after the development of countless new formulas and techniques, there has been more than ample opportunity to work out mere procedural flaws. It is not unreasonable to conclude, therefore, that the System has failed, not because it needs a new set of rules or more intelligent directors, but because it is incapable of achieving its stated objectives.
If an institution is incapable of achieving its objectives, there is no reason to preserve it—unless it can be altered in some way to change its capability. That leads to the question: why is the System incapable of achieving its stated objectives? The painful answer is: those were never its true objectives. When one realizes the circumstances under which it was created, when one contemplates the identities of those who authored it, and when one studies its actual performance over the years, it becomes obvious that the System is merely a cartel with a government facade. There is no doubt that those who run it are motivated to maintain full employment, high productivity, low inflation, and a generally sound economy. They are not interested in killing the goose that lays such beautiful golden eggs. But, when there is a conflict between the public interest and the private needs of the cartel—a conflict that arises almost daily—the public will be sacrificed. That is the nature of the beast. It is foolish to expect a cartel to act in any other way.
This view is not encouraged by Establishment institutions and publishers. It has become their apparent mission to convince the American people that the system is not intrinsically flawed. It merely has been in the hands of bumbling oafs. For example,
 
William Greider was a former Assistant Managing Editor for The Washington Post. His book, Secrets of The Temple, was published in 1987 by Simon and Schuster. It was critical of the Federal Reserve because of its failures, but, according to Greider, these were not caused by any defect in the System itself, but were merely the result
of economic factors which are "s000 complicated" that the good men who have struggled to make the System work just haven't
been able to figure it all out. But, don't worry, folks, they're working on it! That is exactly the kind of powder-puff criticism which is acceptable in our mainstream media. Yet, Greider's own research points to an entirely different interpretation. Speaking of the System's origin, he says:
As new companies prospered without Wall Street, so did the new regional banks that handled their funds. New York's concentrated share of bank deposits was still huge, about half the nation's total, but it was declining steadily. Wall Street was still "the biggest kid on the block," but less and less able to bully the others.
This trend was a crucial fact of history, a misunderstood reality that completely alters the political meaning of the reform legislation that created the Federal Reserve. At the time, the conventional wisdom in Congress, widely shared and sincerely espoused by Progressive reformers, was that a government institution would finally harness the "money trust," disarm its powers, and establish broad democratic control over money and credit.... The results were nearly the opposite. The money reforms enacted in 1913, in fact, helped to preserve the status quo, to stabilize the old order. Money-center bankers would not only gain dominance over the new central bank, but would also enjoy new insulation against instability and their own decline. Once the Fed was in operation, the steady diffusion of financial power halted. Wall Street maintained its dominant position—and even enhanced it. 1
Antony Sutton, former Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution for War, Revolution and Peace, and also former Professor of Economics at California State University, Los Angeles, provides a somewhat deeper analysis. He writes:
Warburg's revolutionary plan to get American Society to go to work for Wall Street was astonishingly simple. Even today,... academic theoreticians cover their blackboards with meaningless equations, and the general public struggles in bewildered confusion with inflation and the coming credit collapse, while the quite simple explanation of
1. Greider, p. 275.
 
the problem goes undiscussed and almost entirely uncomprehended. The Federal Reserve System is a legal private monopoly of the money supply operated for the benefit of the few under the guise of protecting and promoting the public interest.1
The real significance of the journey to Jekyll Island and the
creature that was hatched there was inadvertently summarized by
the words of Paul Warburg's admiring biographer, Harold Kellock:
Paul M. Warburg is probably the mildest-mannered man that ever personally conducted a revolution. It was a bloodless revolution: he did not attempt to rouse the populace to arms. He stepped forth armed simply with an idea. And he conquered. That's the amazing thing. A shy, sensitive man, he imposed his idea on a nation of a hundred million people?

MYTH ACCEPTED AS HISTORY
The accepted version of history is that the Federal Reserve was created to stabilize our economy. One of the most widely-used textbooks on this subject says: "It sprang from the panic of 1907, with its alarming epidemic of bank failures: the country was fed IT once and for all with the anarchy of unstable private banking." Even the most naive student must sense a grave contradiction between this cherished view and the System's actual performance. Since its inception, it has presided over the crashes of 1921 and 1929; the Great Depression of '29 to '39; recessions in '53, '57, '69, '75, and '81; a stock market "Black Monday" in '87; and a 1000% inflation which has destroyed 90% of the dollar's purchasing
3
power.
Let us be more specific on that last point. By 1990, an annual income of $10,000 was required to buy what took only $1,000 in 1914.4 That incredible loss in value was quietly transferred to the federal government in the form of hidden taxation, and the Federal Reserve System was the mechanism by which it was accomplished.
Actions have consequences. The consequences of wealth confis- cation by the Federal-Reserve mechanism are now upon us. In the current decade, corporate debt is soaring; personal debt is greater than ever; both business and personal bankruptcies are at an all-time high; banks and savings and loan associations are failing in
1.   Quoted by Kolko, Triumph, p. 235.
2.   Paul A. Samuelson, Economics, 8th ed. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1970), p. 272.
3.   See "Money, Banking, and Biblical Ethics," by Ronald H. Nash, Durell Journal of Money and Banking, February, 1990.
4.   When one considers that the income tax had just been introduced in 1913 and that such low figures were completely exempt, an income at that time of $1,000 actually was the equivalent of earning $15,400 now, before paying 35% taxes. When the amount now taken by state and local governments is added to the total bite, the figure is close to $20,000.
 
larger numbers than ever before; interest on the national debt is consuming more than half of our personal income tax; heavy industry largely has been replaced by overseas competitors; we are facing an international trade deficit for the first time in our history; 75% of downtown Los Angeles and other metropolitan areas is owned by foreigners; and the nation is in economic recession







hero member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 500
Life is short, practice empathy in your life
The irony is that technical analysis based on the dollar index suggests there may actually be a bull run on the dollar the coming years. The main reserve currency competitors (the euro and the yuan) are at the brink of falling into a multiyear bear market against the USD.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
if you doubt the power of the dollar, then why is Europe in crisis?

What caused the crisis here if not for the crisis in the American economy?

Eurozone had their own credit bubble/ housinng bubble.  Not tied to USD.

You talking about Ireland, Greece and Spain?
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
information and technology
Technology is useless on its own.

Legends speak of an ancient library, filled with all the worlds wisdom and knowledge. Wise men from across the lands journeyed for months or years to read the valuable scrolls or make their own contributions. The internet is better in every way than the Library of Alexandria, and what do we use it for? Cat pictures, selfies and porn.

It doesn't matter what we have the theoretical capacity to do or know when people are stupid and willingly uninformed.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
if you doubt the power of the dollar, then why is Europe in crisis?

What caused the crisis here if not for the crisis in the American economy?
sr. member
Activity: 742
Merit: 250
The economy nowadays is more global than ever.

The dollar is the major currency used worldwide in trade, even if for example France wants to buy something from Japan, they will not use Euros nor Yen, they'll use dollars.

If when the dollar collapses, the whole world will feel the pain.

Also, many banks and governments have huge amounts of dollars or dollar-denominated bonds and security and other financial assets that are directly tied to the dollar. And not to mention when the dollar collapses, wall street will too. 

Also, the USA is by far the biggest importer of pretty much everything, but all they really export is dollars. In other words they are pretty much pumping (worthless) dollars in the world economy while they buy all the goods. When the dollar loses it's value (and it will as many countries are finally seeing the scam for what it is), most industries will not be able to sell their products anymore, since the USA will not be able to afford it anymore, which will trigger a domino-effect much bigger than the housing bubble (which also started in the USA and had a big influence on the whole world).

The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.



Well i have read a lot of this before, but is this really based on your own thoughts and research or are you just repeating something you read somewhere else without thinkinh about it yourself? (without taking into consideration how much "real" and knowledgeable the person from whom you read this seemed to be).

For example, are you sure that the majority of the world has an important ammount of dollars (or something tied to dollars) part of their foreign reserves??

I just cannot see such a disaster happening in the modern world with the ammount on information and technology the world has... but again i might be wrong but i think the impact of dollar collapse is being over estimated, at least world wide, in USA im sure it might get ugly, but globally i just dont see it.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
The economy nowadays is more global than ever.

The dollar is the major currency used worldwide in trade, even if for example France wants to buy something from Japan, they will not use Euros nor Yen, they'll use dollars.

If when the dollar collapses, the whole world will feel the pain.

Also, many banks and governments have huge amounts of dollars or dollar-denominated bonds and security and other financial assets that are directly tied to the dollar. And not to mention when the dollar collapses, wall street will too. 

Also, the USA is by far the biggest importer of pretty much everything, but all they really export is dollars. In other words they are pretty much pumping (worthless) dollars in the world economy while they buy all the goods. When the dollar loses it's value (and it will as many countries are finally seeing the scam for what it is), most industries will not be able to sell their products anymore, since the USA will not be able to afford it anymore, which will trigger a domino-effect much bigger than the housing bubble (which also started in the USA and had a big influence on the whole world).

The world will have to rely on barter for a short while and will quickly turn to what it knew worked in the past, which is gold and silver.

sr. member
Activity: 742
Merit: 250
I have been reading about the collapse of dollar for several months and know that the issue is a years or even dozen of years old topic. I dont think i fully understand it but im quite leaning on the side that the collapse will happen, but even if i have a hard time believing the total apocalypse some of the people are portaing it to be... (like "the biggest event in human history" (this is the stupidest phrase i have heard so far).

Can someone concretely eplain to others WHY should the collapse of dollar mean a depression bigger then the one in 1930?

Simple quick points, because i dont see it...?
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