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Topic: Common hashrate (Read 1369 times)

member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 15, 2017, 06:37:48 PM
#24

Believing in or giving up to the crypto terminology: 'trustless world' is part of this terminology and it is pure ideology. Guys in this forum are so happy with this cat and mouse game: We live in a trustless world and guess what? We have built a reliable ecosystem! We did what TCP/IP did decades ago with unreliable communication channels,  believe it? How smart we are! Our parents should be proud of us!

But TCP/IP was totally a different story: It fixed the problem directly, eliminated the packet lost problem and provided what we desperately needed: a reliable, fault tolerant, peer-to peer communication channel.


If I am understanding you correctly, we are not trying to solve a real problem, we are stuck in an ideological loop?
We fixed the TCP/IP problem because we kept trying to solve it. Crypto terminology as you call it, to me is a tool to do work with. I ask myself the question, how can I use it to solve the problem I now have, or can it?
TCP/IP was a direct solution for a real problem: Any communication is potentially vulnerable to message lost. This is not a human made problem it is how the real world works. Noise is not avoidable, human kind did not invented noise or other mathematical and topological problems we were facing with which DARAP project successfully solved in late 70s by inventing TCP/IP ...

But when it comes to our ideological terminology and the infamous 'trustless-world', we are in a totally different situation:
We have made the problem by our hands, gradually and brake by brake. I know people are not trustable inherently but machines are, they should be.
Follow the orders, and work the way we have programmed you! It is what a machine is supposed to do . Machines have no purpose, they have no interests, they don't need any incentives to do their jobs, they are simply machines. If the word 'trust' has got any meaning, machines are among the most trustable objects in our world!

But now take a closer look at our contemporary computing technologies, which we have invented and developed leaded by greedy billion dollar corporates like IBM, Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, ...
Look closer and find a simple truth: they are not machines, they are just a big question mark label on a black box and this is the very first origin of our ideological problem: trustless-world it is not about the world, it is about the machines corporate made mixtures of evil hardware and software. World is trustful, these bastard babies of greed and ignorance, these 'computers' are not.
Coping with this phenomenon by applying smart tricks (like St. Satoshi's holly consensus invention and the blockchain) is  not necessarily the most smart choice we have ...

Instead I'm proposing to reconsider the whole computing technology and even re-invent it to eliminate the evil, Frankenstein like 'things' we call them computers.

Once we got truly computing machines, innocent, loyal, transparent machines that do their job predictably and honestly, the whole situation will change radically and it is not just about FINTECH but every single crisis in the IT we have today.



I prefer to fix problems in a radical and straight forward way, I prefer to be right rather than smart,  in this case, I think we have to ask, in the first place: How did we ended here? This 'dealing with unreliable computing technology' dilemma? This 'computing in the shadows' paradigm?


Elaborate some more on this.
I just did Smiley

I get your point now. Told you I am not that fast.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1174
Always remember the cause!
September 15, 2017, 11:28:28 AM
#23

Believing in or giving up to the crypto terminology: 'trustless world' is part of this terminology and it is pure ideology. Guys in this forum are so happy with this cat and mouse game: We live in a trustless world and guess what? We have built a reliable ecosystem! We did what TCP/IP did decades ago with unreliable communication channels,  believe it? How smart we are! Our parents should be proud of us!

But TCP/IP was totally a different story: It fixed the problem directly, eliminated the packet lost problem and provided what we desperately needed: a reliable, fault tolerant, peer-to peer communication channel.


If I am understanding you correctly, we are not trying to solve a real problem, we are stuck in an ideological loop?
We fixed the TCP/IP problem because we kept trying to solve it. Crypto terminology as you call it, to me is a tool to do work with. I ask myself the question, how can I use it to solve the problem I now have, or can it?
TCP/IP was a direct solution for a real problem: Any communication is potentially vulnerable to message lost. This is not a human made problem it is how the real world works. Noise is not avoidable, human kind did not invented noise or other mathematical and topological problems we were facing with which DARAP project successfully solved in late 70s by inventing TCP/IP ...

But when it comes to our ideological terminology and the infamous 'trustless-world', we are in a totally different situation:
We have made the problem by our hands, gradually and brake by brake. I know people are not trustable inherently but machines are, they should be.
Follow the orders, and work the way we have programmed you! It is what a machine is supposed to do . Machines have no purpose, they have no interests, they don't need any incentives to do their jobs, they are simply machines. If the word 'trust' has got any meaning, machines are among the most trustable objects in our world!

But now take a closer look at our contemporary computing technologies, which we have invented and developed leaded by greedy billion dollar corporates like IBM, Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, ...
Look closer and find a simple truth: they are not machines, they are just a big question mark label on a black box and this is the very first origin of our ideological problem: trustless-world it is not about the world, it is about the machines corporate made mixtures of evil hardware and software. World is trustful, these bastard babies of greed and ignorance, these 'computers' are not.
Coping with this phenomenon by applying smart tricks (like St. Satoshi's holly consensus invention and the blockchain) is  not necessarily the most smart choice we have ...

Instead I'm proposing to reconsider the whole computing technology and even re-invent it to eliminate the evil, Frankenstein like 'things' we call them computers.

Once we got truly computing machines, innocent, loyal, transparent machines that do their job predictably and honestly, the whole situation will change radically and it is not just about FINTECH but every single crisis in the IT we have today.



I prefer to fix problems in a radical and straight forward way, I prefer to be right rather than smart,  in this case, I think we have to ask, in the first place: How did we ended here? This 'dealing with unreliable computing technology' dilemma? This 'computing in the shadows' paradigm?


Elaborate some more on this.
I just did Smiley
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 15, 2017, 08:26:57 AM
#22

Believing in or giving up to the crypto terminology: 'trustless world' is part of this terminology and it is pure ideology. Guys in this forum are so happy with this cat and mouse game: We live in a trustless world and guess what? We have built a reliable ecosystem! We did what TCP/IP did decades ago with unreliable communication channels,  believe it? How smart we are! Our parents should be proud of us!

But TCP/IP was totally a different story: It fixed the problem directly, eliminated the packet lost problem and provided what we desperately needed: a reliable, fault tolerant, peer-to peer communication channel.


If I am understanding you correctly, we are not trying to solve a real problem, we are stuck in an ideological loop?
We fixed the TCP/IP problem because we kept trying to solve it. Crypto terminology as you call it, to me is a tool to do work with. I ask myself the question, how can I use it to solve the problem I now have, or can it?

I prefer to fix problems in a radical and straight forward way, I prefer to be right rather than smart,  in this case, I think we have to ask, in the first place: How did we ended here? This 'dealing with unreliable computing technology' dilemma? This 'computing in the shadows' paradigm?


Elaborate some more on this.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1174
Always remember the cause!
September 15, 2017, 06:16:29 AM
#21
Yes. That operation wins on raw power
What I want is a game of chance. Like the lottery you can buy $1M worth of tickets, does it guarantee you winning?
Now we are trying to build trust in a trustless world saturated by digital signals generated by unknown devils we have made by our own hands, impressive, entertaining, but pointless! Why in the hell we had to make such monsters in the first place?!

Because it is a trust-less world we attempt to build a system that does not require trust. And with each person in the system trying to secure his property secure the property of others.
We are alive, while we are we move forward. Solve problems as they come along, whether they are man made or otherwise.  

It is not a 'trust-less' world! The world is full of trust. I trust my eyes when I see a cat, I know it is not an elephant or a nuclear missile but one thing is trust-less: a computer that is running Windows or pretends to be running Linux, damn, I have no clue what the hell is it, I mean it, I have no clue at all, nobody does!

And good luck with your 'Do what you are obliged to do' approach I prefer the 'Ask Why' version.

Don't think I am getting your logic. On the other hand I might not be a fast learner.

Thanks

It is not about your learning skills nor my idea being too sophisticated. Just one reason: Ideology.

Believing in or giving up to the crypto terminology: 'trustless world' is part of this terminology and it is pure ideology. Guys in this forum are so happy with this cat and mouse game: We live in a trustless world and guess what? We have built a reliable ecosystem! We did what TCP/IP did decades ago with unreliable communication channels,  believe it? How smart we are! Our parents should be proud of us!

But TCP/IP was totally a different story: It fixed the problem directly, eliminated the packet lost problem and provided what we desperately needed: a reliable, fault tolerant, peer-to peer communication channel.

In the blockchain and consensus case we are just making the problem official todo our business wit it: computers are monsters? Good news! lets build an ecosystem upon it, based on it. In fact we  need them to be  unpredictable, unreliable things, otherwise how can we show our smartness? See? It is our ideology not our science nor our wisdom that speaks here.

I prefer to fix problems in a radical and straight forward way, I prefer to be right rather than smart,  in this case, I think we have to ask, in the first place: How did we ended here? This 'dealing with unreliable computing technology' dilemma? This 'computing in the shadows' paradigm?
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 14, 2017, 10:04:26 PM
#20
Yes. That operation wins on raw power
What I want is a game of chance. Like the lottery you can buy $1M worth of tickets, does it guarantee you winning?
Now we are trying to build trust in a trustless world saturated by digital signals generated by unknown devils we have made by our own hands, impressive, entertaining, but pointless! Why in the hell we had to make such monsters in the first place?!

Because it is a trust-less world we attempt to build a system that does not require trust. And with each person in the system trying to secure his property secure the property of others.
We are alive, while we are we move forward. Solve problems as they come along, whether they are man made or otherwise. 

It is not a 'trust-less' world! The world is full of trust. I trust my eyes when I see a cat, I know it is not an elephant or a nuclear missile but one thing is trust-less: a computer that is running Windows or pretends to be running Linux, damn, I have no clue what the hell is it, I mean it, I have no clue at all, nobody does!

And good luck with your 'Do what you are obliged to do' approach I prefer the 'Ask Why' version.

Don't think I am getting your logic. On the other hand I might not be a fast learner.

Thanks
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1174
Always remember the cause!
September 14, 2017, 08:38:44 PM
#19
Yes. That operation wins on raw power
What I want is a game of chance. Like the lottery you can buy $1M worth of tickets, does it guarantee you winning?
Now we are trying to build trust in a trustless world saturated by digital signals generated by unknown devils we have made by our own hands, impressive, entertaining, but pointless! Why in the hell we had to make such monsters in the first place?!

Because it is a trust-less world we attempt to build a system that does not require trust. And with each person in the system trying to secure his property secure the property of others.
We are alive, while we are we move forward. Solve problems as they come along, whether they are man made or otherwise. 

It is not a 'trust-less' world! The world is full of trust. I trust my eyes when I see a cat, I know it is not an elephant or a nuclear missile but one thing is trust-less: a computer that is running Windows or pretends to be running Linux, damn, I have no clue what the hell is it, I mean it, I have no clue at all, nobody does!

And good luck with your 'Do what you are obliged to do' approach I prefer the 'Ask Why' version.
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 14, 2017, 08:13:01 PM
#18
Yes. That operation wins on raw power
What I want is a game of chance. Like the lottery you can buy $1M worth of tickets, does it guarantee you winning?
Now we are trying to build trust in a trustless world saturated by digital signals generated by unknown devils we have made by our own hands, impressive, entertaining, but pointless! Why in the hell we had to make such monsters in the first place?!

Because it is a trust-less world we attempt to build a system that does not require trust. And with each person in the system trying to secure his property secure the property of others.
We are alive, while we are we move forward. Solve problems as they come along, whether they are man made or otherwise. 
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 14, 2017, 08:04:02 PM
#17
Dude i don't really understand what you mean but an average asic is doing about 3-10 th's and computers are only mining a fraction of that, the best bet is to mine with many cpus some kinda cpu based coin but not bitcoin that is based on sha because the difficulty is so high now...

You are missing the point I haven't settled on an algorithm yet, but my aim is to make the large hash rate from individual miner unnecessary, just enough to solve the problem in 2 to 5 minuets. Any one with a large farm will have to set up each miner individually.That is each running at say 10 H/S. What I am thinking of if you put a 1 TH/S machine on the network you loose money, put several that comes up to that amount of hash might work. Each machine must act as one machine. not on hash power but on chance. I just want to know what is the minimum amount of hash it would take to make a block.     
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1174
Always remember the cause!
September 14, 2017, 07:30:38 PM
#16
Yes. That operation wins on raw power
What I want is a game of chance. Like the lottery you can buy $1M worth of tickets, does it guarantee you winning?
Yes it does! Practically.

As I understand you are seeking a 'one person, one chance' solution for the pow algorithm, which is not feasible with current technology and I can't see any near future development to help this.

For instance suppose we can use some kind of a biometric enabled proof then what? Most people will simply 'sell' their votes to each other and spend their money somewhere else instead of mining and we will have again miners with an unjustified power (bought or rented) who can mess with the network.

From another perspective I'm more optimistic tho, basically this problem, among a lot of other ones, that computing and networking technologies are facing with them, are symptoms of a very deep characteristic which is considered to be 'normal' or 'obvious' falsely: computers are black boxes that can not be categorized provably. They can be good or evil, they can do anything on behalf of their owners, they can generate any amount of any garbage they wish unlike any other object human beings have been dealing with in the history. The thing is it is neither 'normal' nor necessary IMO, and I think it is time to end this shit as it has pushed to its limits and we are in a dramatic dead end situation. Just think about it, the brilliant idea of a public blockchain has been ruined definitively, what else can survive?  

People solve, or try to solve, the problems that they have generated by their own mistakes. We first destroy the planet and then try to figure out the ways out of the crisis, no ways out of course.

Now we are trying to build trust in a trustless world saturated by digital signals generated by unknown devils we have made by our own hands, impressive, entertaining, but pointless! Why in the hell we had to make such monsters in the first place?!
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
Bounty Manager At your Service Please Pm me
September 14, 2017, 07:11:08 PM
#15
Dude i don't really understand what you mean but an average asic is doing about 3-10 th's and computers are only mining a fraction of that, the best bet is to mine with many cpus some kinda cpu based coin but not bitcoin that is based on sha because the difficulty is so high now...
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 14, 2017, 05:39:28 PM
#14
Yes. That operation wins on raw power
What I want is a game of chance. Like the lottery you can buy $1M worth of tickets, does it guarantee you winning?
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
September 14, 2017, 01:53:26 PM
#13
but you want to spread chances equally and prevent "luck amplification" with mining plants like that on the picture?

member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 14, 2017, 12:47:52 PM
#12
DannyHamilton Thanks, Trying to come up with a way that every one in the network stands a chance of gaining and reduce the chance of centralization.
Good luck.  It will be difficult to prevent sybil attacks.
I am going to keep at it
are you trying to create a mining algorithm for small (like cellphones) devices?

Not really but hope can.
Trying to make something that nearly every one in it stands a chance, something more like chance, not necessarily  having the biggest guns.
full member
Activity: 124
Merit: 100
September 14, 2017, 12:16:02 AM
#11
DannyHamilton Thanks, Trying to come up with a way that every one in the network stands a chance of gaining and reduce the chance of centralization.
Good luck.  It will be difficult to prevent sybil attacks.
I am going to keep at it
are you trying to create a mining algorithm for small (like cellphones) devices?
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 11, 2017, 05:37:37 PM
#10
DannyHamilton Thanks, Trying to come up with a way that every one in the network stands a chance of gaining and reduce the chance of centralization.

Good luck.  It will be difficult to prevent sybil attacks.

If someone wants to exceed any limits you create, they can just pretend to be more than one person.  Since the system is decentralized, there is no authority to "register" with, and nobody to restrict the behaviors of others. All you have is blocks received from a peer.  There is no way to know for certain who created the block, how much hash power they have, or how many blocks they have created in the past.  Anyone can lie about any of those things, and there isn't a good way to know if they are lying or not.

I am going to keep at it
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 4658
September 11, 2017, 02:23:22 PM
#9
DannyHamilton Thanks, Trying to come up with a way that every one in the network stands a chance of gaining and reduce the chance of centralization.

Good luck.  It will be difficult to prevent sybil attacks.

If someone wants to exceed any limits you create, they can just pretend to be more than one person.  Since the system is decentralized, there is no authority to "register" with, and nobody to restrict the behaviors of others. All you have is blocks received from a peer.  There is no way to know for certain who created the block, how much hash power they have, or how many blocks they have created in the past.  Anyone can lie about any of those things, and there isn't a good way to know if they are lying or not.
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 11, 2017, 02:05:36 PM
#8
DannyHamilton Thanks, Trying to come up with a way that every one in the network stands a chance of gaining and reduce the chance of centralization.
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 4658
September 11, 2017, 12:13:36 PM
#7
Let me get this, the combined hashrate of the network is what increase the difficulty?

Effectively, yes.

I thought it was the hashpower of the winner of the last block.

No.

The difficulty is adjusted once every 2016 blocks.

The amount of time it takes for 2016 blocks to be created depends on the total amount of hashpower in the world attempting to create the blocks. Therefore, the difficulty is adjusted based on the total amount of time that it took for the entire world's hashpower to add those 2016 blocks to the blockchain.

If those blocks took less than 20160 minutes, then they happened too fast and difficulty is increased proportionally so that the next 2016 blocks will be created more slowly.

If those blocks took more than 20160 minutes, then they happened too slow and difficulty is decreased proportionally so that the next 2016 blocks will be created more quickly.

Furthermore, it is not possible to know for certain how much hash power a person, pool, or the entire world actually has.  Instead, any website that reports an amount of hash power is ESTIMATING the amount of hash power that entity has based on the amount of time it takes for that entity to mine blocks at the difficulty at the time.  All that is actually known is the difficulty, and the time that blocks are added to a blockchain.
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 11, 2017, 11:21:45 AM
#6

If mining was only 100,000 users with 10 watts, then a single attacker could gain control of the blockchain with 1,000,000 watts.

Additionally, anyone with access to 20 watts could earn twice as much as any other user, so they would have an incentive to secretly run two 10 watt miners.  Then anyone with 40 watts could earn twice as much as the person with 20 watts, so they would have an incentive to secretly run four 10 watt miners.  This incentive would result in all miners running as much equipment as they could afford to and difficulty would increase.  As such, miners that weren't profitable at the increased costs would stop mining.  The total hash power would grow and the number of miners would decrease until eventually we'd be right back where we are today.

Let me get this, the combined hashrate of the network is what increase the difficulty?
I thought it was the hashpower of the winner of the last block.
member
Activity: 128
Merit: 11
September 11, 2017, 11:13:15 AM
#5

So anyone that can afford 10 watts can have a chance.

If mining was only 100,000 users with 10 watts, then a single attacker could gain control of the blockchain with 1,000,000 watts.

Additionally, anyone with access to 20 watts could earn twice as much as any other user, so they would have an incentive to secretly run two 10 watt miners.  Then anyone with 40 watts could earn twice as much as the person with 20 watts, so they would have an incentive to secretly run four 10 watt miners.  This incentive would result in all miners running as much equipment as they could afford to and difficulty would increase.  As such, miners that weren't profitable at the increased costs would stop mining.  The total hash power would grow and the number of miners would decrease until eventually we'd be right back where we are today.

That much I understand, so my aim is to figure out how to limit hash power. Just wanted to understand what would happen if there is a common hashrate. if none then (may be wasting my time) try to figure out how to do that.
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