If you want to continue this discussion please open a separate thread
Your logic is: DRM is fail now therefore it will remain fail forever.We can hack it now -> we will always be able to hack it. I disagree with this
Topic: Could Mining Be Useful? (Read 3736 times)
it is drm - just a global rather than local one .i really hope those are just fantasies. i just wanted to show that it is not impossible. not that it will inevitably happen.
You haven't shown anything. Even if implemented it could still be hacked (and likely would within months if not weeks). If not implemented globally there is still sat connectivity to "free internet" providers. All DRM can be hacked. Period. It is inherently insecure. Adam is eve and that is why all DRM eventually fails. Even in a global single world government where all computing devices comply to a universe DRM scheme and you have universal support from all ISP on the planet at every level and nobody anywhere provides backdoors or insecure routes intentionally or accidentally it STILL can be broken.
So no you haven't shown anything except an increasingly more ridiculous strawman.
it is drm - just a global rather than local one .i really hope those are just fantasies. i just wanted to show that it is not impossible. not that it will inevitably happen.
k. back on topic.
the main problem here is proof of work.
to make it work the scientific problem needs to be verifiable in a polynomial time while not being solvable in polynomial time (the P!=NP theory)
so a client can work for a certain time on the solution. and once found can be verified quickly.
another thing is that it has to be predictable so you can clearly define a unit of work
for example looking for extremely large prime numbers can be useful - and shouldnt be to hard to verify
http://w2.eff.org/awards/20000406_coopaward_pr.html https://www.eff.org/awards/coop
you can require that the first half of the number is identical to the last half of the previous one
and the difficulty can be adjusted by setting a lower limit on the second half of the number
k. back on topic.
the main problem here is proof of work.
to make it work the scientific problem needs to be verifiable in a polynomial time while not being solvable in polynomial time (the P!=NP theory)
so a client can work for a certain time on the solution. and once found can be verified quickly.
another thing is that it has to be predictable so you can clearly define a unit of work
for example looking for extremely large prime numbers can be useful - and shouldnt be to hard to verify
http://w2.eff.org/awards/20000406_coopaward_pr.html https://www.eff.org/awards/coop
you can require that the first half of the number is identical to the last half of the previous one
and the difficulty can be adjusted by setting a lower limit on the second half of the number
costia why are you derailing the topic? nowonder everyone is confused. you are just spouting nonsense. I assumed you were talking about using DRM to enforce some "useful work". crazy I know assuming people in a thread about "useful work" are talking about "useful work".
You can take your statist fantansies about complete govt control over internet, all applications, all computing devices, and all ISP to another thread in off topic. As someone else pointed out even China doesn't have control like that over computing devices.
Another noob to put on ignore.
You can take your statist fantansies about complete govt control over internet, all applications, all computing devices, and all ISP to another thread in off topic. As someone else pointed out even China doesn't have control like that over computing devices.
Another noob to put on ignore.
currently doing something like this just isn't worth it
but if bitcoin or something similar will take away ~1trillion$ income in taxes from the government , they will force the ISP to shut it down
and it will basically mean the death of the internet as we know it
I am not saying that this is a probable outcome, but it is possible (though unlikely)
edit:
and you werent reading again. i wasnt talking about ports or encrypting your trafic with your own private key. i was talking about dropping any packet that isn't signed by the ISP's private key - which you dont have
but if bitcoin or something similar will take away ~1trillion$ income in taxes from the government , they will force the ISP to shut it down
and it will basically mean the death of the internet as we know it
I am not saying that this is a probable outcome, but it is possible (though unlikely)
edit:
and you werent reading again. i wasnt talking about ports or encrypting your trafic with your own private key. i was talking about dropping any packet that isn't signed by the ISP's private key - which you dont have
are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
Bitcoin can be disguised to look like other types of packets. It can even go darknet. Sure, ISPs can censor anything and I know at least I will stop paying them.
you wont be able to sign the packet your self and it will be dropped by the ISP
Non censored ISP might become illegal in the future - so whatever ISP you chose - will drop those packets
[edit] I'm hardly one to argue the ability to circumvent censorship, but I do know that I refuse to support any enterprise that censors.
are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
Bitcoin can be disguised to look like other types of packets. It can even go darknet. Sure, ISPs can censor anything and I know at least I will stop paying them.
you wont be able to sign the packet your self and it will be dropped by the ISP
Non censored ISP might become illegal in the future - so whatever ISP you chose - will drop those packets
are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
Bitcoin can be disguised to look like other types of packets. It can even go darknet. Sure, ISPs can censor anything and I know at least I will stop paying them.
One more time. This is Bitcoin. An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK. So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
By not giving you a choice. By selling only closed platforms. and making it not profitable hacking them or building open platforms that can bypass the ISP's encryption that will also run on a closed platform.
So your choices will be:
Open/hacked platform that can run any node - expensive , protocols can change without notice and then the platform will be useless for a while - it wont be able to connect to your ISP (think about 20% average uptime between hacks and updates)
Closed platform - you can run a node only if it was digitally signed by some authority , and can be shut down remotely by that authority at any time.
WHAT AUTHORITY? Are you reading or just typing random keys.
Bitcoin = a decentralized peer to peer network WITHOUT ANY TRUSTED THIRD PARTY (i.e. a central authority).
are you reading what i am writing at all?
How will bitcoin work if it cant send anything over the network?
Bitcoin requires the existence of an non censored internet to work.
If your ISP will drop all bitcoin related packets - there will be no blockchain (or as i suggested - dropping all non signed packets)
Authority = ISP being controlled and regulated by corporations/government
One more time. This is Bitcoin. An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK. So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
By not giving you a choice. By selling only closed platforms. and making it not profitable hacking them or building open platforms that can bypass the ISP's encryption that will also run on a closed platform.
So your choices will be:
Open/hacked platform that can run any node - expensive , protocols can change without notice and then the platform will be useless for a while - it wont be able to connect to your ISP (think about 20% average uptime between hacks and updates)
Closed platform - you can run a node only if it was digitally signed by some authority , and can be shut down remotely by that authority at any time.
WHAT AUTHORITY? Are you reading or just typing random keys.
Bitcoin = a decentralized peer to peer network WITHOUT ANY TRUSTED THIRD PARTY (i.e. a central authority).
One more time. This is Bitcoin. An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK. So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
By not giving you a choice. By selling only closed platforms. and making it not profitable hacking them or building open platforms that can bypass the ISP's encryption that will also run on a closed platform.
So your choices will be:
Open/hacked platform that can run any node - expensive , protocols can change without notice and then the platform will be useless for a while - it wont be able to connect to your ISP (think about 20% average uptime between hacks and updates)
Closed platform - you can run a node only if it was digitally signed by some authority , and can be shut down remotely by that authority at any time.
One more time. This is Bitcoin. An OPEN DECENTRALIZED (as in no trusted third party) PEER TO PEER NETWORK. So exactly how do you limit nodes to closed proprietary hardware.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
Yes HDMI has been broken wide open. It is only of academic value because DRM on compressed data is also broken and much easier to work with.
quote author=DeathAndTaxes link=topic=60703.msg709554#msg709554 date=1327363255]
tl'dr it doesn't have to be unhackable, it needs to be more risky/expensive than actually doing the mining
How exactly is do closed systems and code signed by "manufacturer" apply to a decentralized open source project?
Even in closed networks DRM is an utter failure. Even closed hardware systems are routinely hacked. There is no DRM which can't be broken because the keys must be present on the hardware. Obfuscation is no basis for secure systems.
[/quote]
by preventing access to your network card to any app that isn't signed (the network card will require a signed key + hash to operate or something like that)
and they can brick your device if they think it got hacked
you are describing the current situation - this can change
btw was HDMI hacked already? it is encrypted...
anyway, i didnt say it will be impossible to hack, just not worth the cost (per machine)
Quote
There is no DRM that can't be broken. Today DRM is broken even when there is no direct economic incentive. Many hackers break it just to break it. When the payoff is potentially millions a year in transaction fees DRM doesn't have a hope of standing up.
currently this is true. but if more platforms become "closed" - aka you cant run any code that you want and it has to be signed by the manufacturer, the needed HW hacks might not be cost effective anymore, or too risky. for example a lot of the hacked xbox console were banned from XBL and required a to buy a new one to connect to the internet. So while cheating you will risk loosing the money spent on that machine, which in the long term might become less profitable than mining properly.tl'dr it doesn't have to be unhackable, it needs to be more risky/expensive than actually doing the mining
How exactly is do closed systems and code signed by "manufacturer" apply to a decentralized open source project?
Even in closed networks DRM is an utter failure. Even closed hardware systems are routinely hacked. There is no DRM which can't be broken because the keys must be present on the hardware. Obfuscation is no basis for secure systems.
[/quote]
by preventing access to your network card to any app that isn't signed (the network card will require a signed key + hash to operate or something like that)
and they can brick your device if they think it got hacked
you are describing the current situation - this can change
btw was HDMI hacked already? it is encrypted...
anyway, i didnt say it will be impossible to hack, just not worth the cost (per machine)
Quote
There is no DRM that can't be broken. Today DRM is broken even when there is no direct economic incentive. Many hackers break it just to break it. When the payoff is potentially millions a year in transaction fees DRM doesn't have a hope of standing up.
currently this is true. but if more platforms become "closed" - aka you cant run any code that you want and it has to be signed by the manufacturer, the needed HW hacks might not be cost effective anymore, or too risky. for example a lot of the hacked xbox console were banned from XBL and required a to buy a new one to connect to the internet. So while cheating you will risk loosing the money spent on that machine, which in the long term might become less profitable than mining properly.tl'dr it doesn't have to be unhackable, it needs to be more risky/expensive than actually doing the mining
How exactly is do closed systems and code signed by "manufacturer" apply to a decentralized open source project?
Even in closed networks DRM is an utter failure. Even closed hardware systems are routinely hacked. There is no DRM which can't be broken because the keys must be present on the hardware. Obfuscation is no basis for secure systems.
Quote
There is no DRM that can't be broken. Today DRM is broken even when there is no direct economic incentive. Many hackers break it just to break it. When the payoff is potentially millions a year in transaction fees DRM doesn't have a hope of standing up.
currently this is true. but if more platforms become "closed" - aka you cant run any code that you want and it has to be signed by the manufacturer, the needed HW hacks might not be cost effective anymore, or too risky. for example a lot of the hacked xbox console were banned from XBL and required a to buy a new one to connect to the internet. So while cheating you will risk loosing the money spent on that machine, which in the long term might become less profitable than mining properly.tl'dr it doesnt have to be unhackable, it needs to be more risky/expensive than actually doing the mining
Can someone show a useful problem that can be broken into millions of parts? Each part having an answer that is already known so we know the solver did it and did it right? I mean just show one problem like this, maybe you can actually do it, but it should demonstrate that it wont' work for anything.
Current 'work' has an amazing property. It can take an arbitrarily large and fine tuned amount of computing (on average) and still be instantly verifiable by everyone. We can all verify both that the work was done and that it was done AFTER the previous block.
Current 'work' has an amazing property. It can take an arbitrarily large and fine tuned amount of computing (on average) and still be instantly verifiable by everyone. We can all verify both that the work was done and that it was done AFTER the previous block.
About the only thing I can think of is that we become a rendering farm for the next Pixar film, but I'm not sure if ATI cards would work well for that.
Can someone show a useful problem that can be broken into millions of parts? Each part having an answer that is already known so we know the solver did it and did it right? I mean just show one problem like this, maybe you can actually do it, but it should demonstrate that it wont' work for anything.
Current 'work' has an amazing property. It can take an arbitrarily large and fine tuned amount of computing (on average) and still be instantly verifiable by everyone. We can all verify both that the work was done and that it was done AFTER the previous block.
Current 'work' has an amazing property. It can take an arbitrarily large and fine tuned amount of computing (on average) and still be instantly verifiable by everyone. We can all verify both that the work was done and that it was done AFTER the previous block.
i think folding@home does have some kind of measure of work done, maybe seti is well
if you are serious about this , look at their code and adjust it to be secure
Or take any specific problem and try to make it work on a small scale
if you are serious about this , look at their code and adjust it to be secure
Or take any specific problem and try to make it work on a small scale
Folding & Seti solve the problem of cheating by using a central third party. A key design of Bitcoin is a commerce system which relies on no trusted third party.
Quote
Currently, creating a general purpose, distributed, scientific solving network for profit is not feasible.
This might change with time (for example if from a certain point in time motherboards will have integrated DRM chips that can be used to verify work with 99% certainty)
This might change with time (for example if from a certain point in time motherboards will have integrated DRM chips that can be used to verify work with 99% certainty)
There is no DRM that can't be broken. Today DRM is broken even when there is no direct economic incentive. Many hackers break it just to break it. When the payoff is potentially millions a year in transaction fees DRM doesn't have a hope of standing up.
this is way to theoretical
for any fix you suggest me or others will be able to come up with 10 exploits
this needs to be tested on a concrete example.
i think folding@home does have some kind of measure of work done, maybe seti is well
if you are serious about this , look at their code and adjust it to be secure
Or take any specific problem and try to make it work on a small scale
Currently, creating a general purpose, distributed, scientific solving network for profit is not feasible.
This might change with time (for example if from a certain point in time motherboards will have integrated DRM chips that can be used to verify work with 99% certainty)
for any fix you suggest me or others will be able to come up with 10 exploits
this needs to be tested on a concrete example.
i think folding@home does have some kind of measure of work done, maybe seti is well
if you are serious about this , look at their code and adjust it to be secure
Or take any specific problem and try to make it work on a small scale
Currently, creating a general purpose, distributed, scientific solving network for profit is not feasible.
This might change with time (for example if from a certain point in time motherboards will have integrated DRM chips that can be used to verify work with 99% certainty)
No, you want to have each worker working on a different micro-problem. Having 10,000 computers race to finish the same problem would be a waste. It would be better if each worker randomly choose a microproblem in hopes of being the first to solve it. Once the answer to the microproblem has been released, other computer would verify it before putting it in the chain.
Good point. Redundant work defeats the whole purpose, and the proof of work isn't enough of a barrier to entry.
What if instead micro-problems were assigned randomly? You'd submit a proof of work to receive a random micro-problem to solve, and that proof of work would only entitle you to submit one answer. But you couldn't request to solve any specific micro-problem, which would prevent you from sending multiple answers to the same question. If you submit 500 proof of work you'd get 500 different micro-problems. Each micro problem would only be assigned a couple times, to avoid redundancy.
P.S. I know that this idea probably has a lot of flaws as written, but I think if we could think of a way to make it work a coin backed by distributive computing could be very potent. Lots of challenges to solve, but that's why I'm posting it for discussion.
Jump to: